From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits
for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and 2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019 prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30 sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire, unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of
the project
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost
over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint >> venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services
deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well >> as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or
compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers. >>
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new >> HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they >> would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units. >>
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was >> made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast
mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to
accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century >> ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are
operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of >> HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil >> details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London >> and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits
for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is >> preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the
London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s. >>
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the >> war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train >> contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted >> to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30 >> sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much earlier!
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be >>> radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint >>> venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to >>> Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond >>> Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well >>> as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or
compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers. >>>
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But >>> it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of >>> the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not >>> have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new >>> HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they >>> would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units. >>>
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was >>> made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century >>> ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are
operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of >>> HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or >>> even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil >>> details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London >>> and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is >>> preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and >>> 2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old >>> Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s. >>>
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019 >>> prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the >>> final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the >>> war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train >>> contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted >>> to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to >>> the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30 >>> sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of >>> the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m >> long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much >> earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for
HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to >>>> Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond >>>> Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers. >>>>
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But >>>> it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of >>>> the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not >>>> have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s >>>> plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units. >>>>
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was >>>> made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of >>>> HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or >>>> even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line
between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail >>>>project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and >>>> 2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The
link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until
the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019 >>>> prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the >>>> final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train >>>> contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are >>>>contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to >>>> the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30 >>>> sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of >>>> the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m >>> long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much >>> earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter
that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
The problem is that the depot is currently designed for 200m long trains.
Any delay in altering the length will significantly increase the cost of
the depot.
The four dedicated HS2 stations are planned to have 400m platforms; money >could be saved by shortening them. I think OOC is the only station where >construction work is already underway,
so it?s too late to shorten the enormous station box, but a small
saving could be made by only constructing 300m long platforms.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be >> radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to >> Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond >> Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or
compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But >> it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of >> the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not >> have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was >> made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are
operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of >> HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or >> even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London >> and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and >> 2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old >> Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s. >>
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019 >> prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the >> final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train >> contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted >> to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to >> the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30 >> sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of >> the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> posted:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be >>>> radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to >>>> Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond >>>> Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But >>>> it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of >>>> the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not >>>> have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s >>>> plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was >>>> made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of >>>> HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or >>>> even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London >>>> and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and >>>> 2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old >>>> Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s. >>>>
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019 >>>> prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the >>>> final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train >>>> contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted >>>> to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to >>>> the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30 >>>> sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of >>>> the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m >>> long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much >>> earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter
that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
What's the problem? We do operate quite new 346m and 374m
HS trainsets here [...] but not in double units...
In message <eOZqR.52$_%.3@fx12.ams1>, at 18:06:02 on Sat, 7 Mar 2026, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for
HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>>>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54 >>>>> trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>>>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs. >>>>>
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>>>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to >>>>> Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond >>>>> Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>>>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with >>>>> discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>>>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But >>>>> it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of >>>>> the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not >>>>> have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s >>>>> plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>>>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>>>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>>>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti. >>>>>
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>>>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or >>>>> even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line
between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>>>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail
project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a >>>>> feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>>>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and >>>>> 2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The
link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until
the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019 >>>>> prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the >>>>> final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are
contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to >>>>> the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>>>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>>>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire, >>>>> unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>>>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of >>>>> the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m >>>> long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much >>>> earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter >>> that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
The problem is that the depot is currently designed for 200m long trains.
Any delay in altering the length will significantly increase the cost of
the depot.
The four dedicated HS2 stations are planned to have 400m platforms; money
could be saved by shortening them. I think OOC is the only station where
construction work is already underway,
So the videos of construction work at Curzon St are fictional?
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <eOZqR.52$_%.3@fx12.ams1>, at 18:06:02 on Sat, 7 Mar 2026,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for
HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>>>>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract >>>>>>to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54 >>>>>> trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>>>>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs. >>>>>>
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>>>>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>>>>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of >>>>>>trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with >>>>>> discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>>>>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK >>>>>>taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and >>>>>>Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length >>>>>>of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged >>>>>>that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two >>>>>>200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a >>>>>>decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>>>>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>>>>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre >>>>>>platforms to
accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current >>>>>> Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti. >>>>>>
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of >>>>>>a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>>>>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the >>>>>>length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made >>>>>>longer ? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected >>>>>>to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line
between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>>>>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail
project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a >>>>>> feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>>>>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The
link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until
the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this
in 2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been >>>>>>delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the >>>>>>revised train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are
contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>>>>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>>>>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK >>>>>>across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire, >>>>>> unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>>>>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m
long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much
earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter >>>> that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
The problem is that the depot is currently designed for 200m long trains. >>> Any delay in altering the length will significantly increase the cost of >>> the depot.
The four dedicated HS2 stations are planned to have 400m platforms; money >>> could be saved by shortening them. I think OOC is the only station where >>> construction work is already underway,
So the videos of construction work at Curzon St are fictional?
As we?ve previously discussed, that was site clearance work that would be >needed whatever form the station eventually takes. Actual construction
hasn?t started yet.
Ditto at Euston.
In message <qAcrR.75$h61.67@fx09.ams1>, at 10:55:18 on Sun, 8 Mar 2026, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <eOZqR.52$_%.3@fx12.ams1>, at 18:06:02 on Sat, 7 Mar 2026,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for
HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost
over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract >>>>>>> to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54 >>>>>>> trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>>>>>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs. >>>>>>>
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services
deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>>>>>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of
trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with >>>>>>> discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>>>>>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK >>>>>>> taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and
Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length >>>>>>> of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged >>>>>>> that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two
200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a
decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast
mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre
platforms to
accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the >>>>>>> embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current >>>>>>> Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti. >>>>>>>
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of >>>>>>> a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>>>>>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the >>>>>>> length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made
longer ? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected >>>>>>> to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line
between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits
for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail
project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a >>>>>>> feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the
London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The
link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until
the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and >>>>>>> Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this
in 2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been
delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the
revised train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are
contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>>>>>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>>>>>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK >>>>>>> across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire, >>>>>>> unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>>>>>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m
long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much
earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter >>>>> that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
The problem is that the depot is currently designed for 200m long trains. >>>> Any delay in altering the length will significantly increase the cost of >>>> the depot.
The four dedicated HS2 stations are planned to have 400m platforms; money >>>> could be saved by shortening them. I think OOC is the only station where >>>> construction work is already underway,
So the videos of construction work at Curzon St are fictional?
As we?ve previously discussed, that was site clearance work that would be
needed whatever form the station eventually takes. Actual construction
hasn?t started yet.
Ditto at Euston.
And as previously debunked, the expression "construction" includes the
site clearance phase.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <qAcrR.75$h61.67@fx09.ams1>, at 10:55:18 on Sun, 8 Mar 2026, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <eOZqR.52$_%.3@fx12.ams1>, at 18:06:02 on Sat, 7 Mar 2026,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for
HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost
over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract >>>>>>> to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54 >>>>>>> trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs. >>>>>>>
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services
deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of
trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with >>>>>>> discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or
compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK >>>>>>> taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and
Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length >>>>>>> of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged >>>>>>> that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two
200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a >>>>>>> decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast
mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre
platforms to
accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the >>>>>>> embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current >>>>>>> Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti. >>>>>>>
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of >>>>>>> a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are
operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the >>>>>>> length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made >>>>>>> longer ? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected >>>>>>> to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line
between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits
for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail >>>>>>> project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a >>>>>>> feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the
London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The
link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until >>>>>>> the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and >>>>>>> Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this >>>>>>> in 2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been
delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the
revised train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are >>>>>>> contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK >>>>>>> across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire, >>>>>>> unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m
long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much
earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter
that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
The problem is that the depot is currently designed for 200m long trains.
Any delay in altering the length will significantly increase the cost of >>>> the depot.
The four dedicated HS2 stations are planned to have 400m platforms; money
could be saved by shortening them. I think OOC is the only station where >>>> construction work is already underway,
So the videos of construction work at Curzon St are fictional?
As we?ve previously discussed, that was site clearance work that would be >> needed whatever form the station eventually takes. Actual construction
hasn?t started yet.
Ditto at Euston.
And as previously debunked, the expression "construction" includes the site clearance phase.
Only in Rolandspeak.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> posted:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <qAcrR.75$h61.67@fx09.ams1>, at 10:55:18 on Sun, 8 Mar 2026, >>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <eOZqR.52$_%.3@fx12.ams1>, at 18:06:02 on Sat, 7 Mar 2026, >>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for >>>>>>>>> HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost
over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract >>>>>>>>> to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54 >>>>>>>>> trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs. >>>>>>>>>
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services
deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of >>>>>>>>> trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with >>>>>>>>> discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or
compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK >>>>>>>>> taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and >>>>>>>>> Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length >>>>>>>>> of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged >>>>>>>>> that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two
200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a >>>>>>>>> decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast
mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre >>>>>>>>> platforms to
accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the >>>>>>>>> embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current >>>>>>>>> Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti. >>>>>>>>>
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of >>>>>>>>> a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are
operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the >>>>>>>>> length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made >>>>>>>>> longer ? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected >>>>>>>>> to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line
between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits
for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail >>>>>>>>> project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a >>>>>>>>> feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the
London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The
link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until >>>>>>>>> the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and >>>>>>>>> Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this >>>>>>>>> in 2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been >>>>>>>>> delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the >>>>>>>>> revised train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are >>>>>>>>> contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK >>>>>>>>> across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire, >>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m
long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much
earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter
that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
The problem is that the depot is currently designed for 200m long trains.
Any delay in altering the length will significantly increase the cost of >>>>>> the depot.
The four dedicated HS2 stations are planned to have 400m platforms; money
could be saved by shortening them. I think OOC is the only station where >>>>>> construction work is already underway,
So the videos of construction work at Curzon St are fictional?
As we?ve previously discussed, that was site clearance work that would be >>>> needed whatever form the station eventually takes. Actual construction >>>> hasn?t started yet.
Ditto at Euston.
And as previously debunked, the expression "construction" includes the
site clearance phase.
Only in Rolandspeak.
Hm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brentford_Community_Stadium#Construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Cathedral_of_Ghana#Current_status_(as_of_2025)
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <qAcrR.75$h61.67@fx09.ams1>, at 10:55:18 on Sun, 8 Mar 2026,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <eOZqR.52$_%.3@fx12.ams1>, at 18:06:02 on Sat, 7 Mar 2026,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for
HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays >>>>>>>>and cost
over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract >>>>>>>> to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54 >>>>>>>> trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 >>>>>>>>billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs. >>>>>>>>
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and >>>>>>>>services
deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from >>>>>>>>London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the >>>>>>>>line beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of
trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with >>>>>>>> discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>>>>>>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK >>>>>>>> taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be >>>>>>>>required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more >>>>>>>>than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes >>>>>>>>would not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and
Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length >>>>>>>> of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged >>>>>>>> that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two
200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a
decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing >>>>>>>>west coast
mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as >>>>>>>>Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre
platforms to
accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the >>>>>>>> embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current >>>>>>>> Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti. >>>>>>>>
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of >>>>>>>> a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>>>>>>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the >>>>>>>> length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made
longer ? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected >>>>>>>> to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line
between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won >>>>>>>>plaudits
for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail >>>>>>>> project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated >>>>>>>>forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between >>>>>>>>Birmingham and the
London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start >>>>>>>>between 2029 and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The
link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until >>>>>>>> the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and >>>>>>>> Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this >>>>>>>> in 2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think >>>>>>>>will take the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been
delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the
revised train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are >>>>>>>> contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have >>>>>>>>been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK >>>>>>>> across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire, >>>>>>>> unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical >>>>>>>>requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to >>>>>>>build 265m
long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening >>>>>>>to me much
earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it >>>>>>won?t matter
that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
The problem is that the depot is currently designed for 200m long trains. >>>>> Any delay in altering the length will significantly increase the cost of >>>>> the depot.
The four dedicated HS2 stations are planned to have 400m platforms; money >>>>> could be saved by shortening them. I think OOC is the only station where >>>>> construction work is already underway,
So the videos of construction work at Curzon St are fictional?
As we?ve previously discussed, that was site clearance work that would be >>> needed whatever form the station eventually takes. Actual construction
hasn?t started yet.
Ditto at Euston.
And as previously debunked, the expression "construction" includes the
site clearance phase.
Only in Rolandspeak.
In message <AEdrR.183$_k2e.44@fx08.ams1>, at 12:08:00 on Sun, 8 Mar
2026, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <qAcrR.75$h61.67@fx09.ams1>, at 10:55:18 on Sun, 8 Mar 2026,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <eOZqR.52$_%.3@fx12.ams1>, at 18:06:02 on Sat, 7 Mar 2026, >>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for >>>>>>>>> HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays >>>>>>>>>and cost
over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract >>>>>>>>> to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54 >>>>>>>>> trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 >>>>>>>>>billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs. >>>>>>>>>
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and >>>>>>>>>services
deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from >>>>>>>>>London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the >>>>>>>>>line beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of
trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with >>>>>>>>> discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or
compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK >>>>>>>>> taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be >>>>>>>>>required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more >>>>>>>>>than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes >>>>>>>>>would not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and >>>>>>>>> Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length >>>>>>>>> of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged >>>>>>>>> that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two
200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a >>>>>>>>> decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing >>>>>>>>>west coast
mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as >>>>>>>>>Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre
platforms to
accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the >>>>>>>>> embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current >>>>>>>>> Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti. >>>>>>>>>
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of >>>>>>>>> a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are
operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the >>>>>>>>> length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made >>>>>>>>> longer ? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected >>>>>>>>> to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line
between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won >>>>>>>>>plaudits
for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail >>>>>>>>> project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated >>>>>>>>>forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between >>>>>>>>>Birmingham and the
London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start >>>>>>>>>between 2029 and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The
link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until >>>>>>>>> the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and >>>>>>>>> Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this >>>>>>>>> in 2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think >>>>>>>>>will take the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been >>>>>>>>> delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the >>>>>>>>> revised train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are >>>>>>>>> contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have >>>>>>>>>been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK >>>>>>>>> across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire, >>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical >>>>>>>>>requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to >>>>>>>>build 265m
long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening >>>>>>>>to me much
earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it >>>>>>>won?t matter
that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
The problem is that the depot is currently designed for 200m long trains.
Any delay in altering the length will significantly increase the cost of >>>>>> the depot.
The four dedicated HS2 stations are planned to have 400m platforms; money
could be saved by shortening them. I think OOC is the only station where >>>>>> construction work is already underway,
So the videos of construction work at Curzon St are fictional?
As we?ve previously discussed, that was site clearance work that would be >>>> needed whatever form the station eventually takes. Actual construction >>>> hasn?t started yet.
Ditto at Euston.
And as previously debunked, the expression "construction" includes the
site clearance phase.
Only in Rolandspeak.
Me and the rest of the civil engineering community.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
And as previously debunked, the expression "construction" includes the >>>> site clearance phase.
Only in Rolandspeak.
Me and the rest of the civil engineering community.
Ah, you're now a leading member of the civil engineering community as well as all the others are you?
Site clearance is quite different to construction, is done by different contractors, and there may be several years in
between the two stages, as has happened with both Curzon Street and Euston.
On Sat, 7 Mar 2026 17:44:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed wrote:
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
What was the intended plan between the line opening to Birmingham and the opening to Manchester? As far as I'm aware the plan was always for trains
to initially switch the the WCML in the midlands until the next part of
the line was complete - and even then they'd ultimately switch at Wigan
for services to Scotland. So this issue would have come up even if the
full plan had gone ahead.
As we?ve previously discussed, that was site clearance work that would be >needed whatever form the station eventually takes. Actual construction
hasn?t started yet.
In message <qAcrR.75$h61.67@fx09.ams1>, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> writes
As we?ve previously discussed, that was site clearance work that would be >>needed whatever form the station eventually takes. Actual construction >>hasn?t started yet.
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet,
why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that
will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although
I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station.
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at
this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly
(time and money) delay. However, as the project appears to be awash
with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a >problem.
On Sat, 7 Mar 2026 17:44:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed wrote:
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast
mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to
accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
What was the intended plan between the line opening to Birmingham and the >opening to Manchester? As far as I'm aware the plan was always for trains
to initially switch the the WCML in the midlands until the next part of
the line was complete - and even then they'd ultimately switch at Wigan
for services to Scotland. So this issue would have come up even if the
full plan had gone ahead.
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet,
why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that
will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although
I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station.
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at
this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly
(time and money) delay. However, as the project appears to be awash
with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a >problem.
Adrian wrote:
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet,
why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that
will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although
I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station.
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at
this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly
(time and money) delay. However, as the project appears to be awash
with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a
problem.
I wonder if we will end up with a Liverpool Metropolitan
Cathedral solution: massive architectural undercroft with a
much-reduced structure on top of it.
Chris
Adrian wrote:
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet,
why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that
will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although
I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station.
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at
this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly
(time and money) delay. However, as the project appears to be awash
with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a
problem.
I wonder if we will end up with a Liverpool Metropolitan
Cathedral solution: massive architectural undercroft with a
much-reduced structure on top of it.
Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
Adrian wrote:
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet,
why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that
will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although
I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station.
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at
this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly
(time and money) delay. However, as the project appears to be awash
with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a
problem.
I wonder if we will end up with a Liverpool Metropolitan
Cathedral solution: massive architectural undercroft with a
much-reduced structure on top of it.
Could be, though I think the current plan is still to build the massive
white elephant originally planned for the full Y-shaped route. They?ve cut >the number of Euston platforms, but for some reason, not Curzon Street. But >perhaps Mark Wild will include that as part of his reset?
Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
Adrian wrote:
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet,
why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that
will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although
I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station.
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at
this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly
(time and money) delay. However, as the project appears to be awash
with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a
problem.
I wonder if we will end up with a Liverpool Metropolitan
Cathedral solution: massive architectural undercroft with a
much-reduced structure on top of it.
Could be, though I think the current plan is still to build the massive
white elephant originally planned for the full Y-shaped route. They?ve cut the number of Euston platforms, but for some reason, not Curzon Street. But perhaps Mark Wild will include that as part of his reset?
In message <FfhrR.200$uJE9.39@fx10.ams1>, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> writes
Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
Adrian wrote:
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet,
why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that >>>> will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although >>>> I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station.
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at
this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly >>>> (time and money) delay. However, as the project appears to be awash
with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a
problem.
I wonder if we will end up with a Liverpool Metropolitan
Cathedral solution: massive architectural undercroft with a
much-reduced structure on top of it.
Could be, though I think the current plan is still to build the massive
white elephant originally planned for the full Y-shaped route. They?ve cut >> the number of Euston platforms, but for some reason, not Curzon Street. But >> perhaps Mark Wild will include that as part of his reset?
I think I heard somewhere that the plan is that it will be built to the
full design, but part of it will be mothballed rather than fitted out,
e.g. 4 operational platforms rather than 7. That way should the
additional capacity be needed in the future, the civil engineering side
has been done (less disruption), it will "just" be the smaller stuff
that needs doing.
Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
In message <FfhrR.200$uJE9.39@fx10.ams1>, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> writes
Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
Adrian wrote:
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet, >>>>> why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that >>>>> will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although >>>>> I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station. >>>>>
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at >>>>> this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly >>>>> (time and money) delay. However, as the project appears to be awash >>>>> with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a >>>>> problem.
I wonder if we will end up with a Liverpool Metropolitan
Cathedral solution: massive architectural undercroft with a
much-reduced structure on top of it.
Could be, though I think the current plan is still to build the massive
white elephant originally planned for the full Y-shaped route. They?ve cut >>> the number of Euston platforms, but for some reason, not Curzon Street. But >>> perhaps Mark Wild will include that as part of his reset?
I think I heard somewhere that the plan is that it will be built to the
full design, but part of it will be mothballed rather than fitted out,
e.g. 4 operational platforms rather than 7. That way should the
additional capacity be needed in the future, the civil engineering side
has been done (less disruption), it will "just" be the smaller stuff
that needs doing.
Yes, I?d heard the same. The argument was that the cost of a redesign would exceed the potential savings from a smaller design. I?m not sure I buy it.
On 08/03/2026 16:14, Recliner wrote:
Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
Adrian wrote:
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet,
why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that >>>> will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although >>>> I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station.
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at
this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly >>>> (time and money) delay.ÿ However, as the project appears to be awash
with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a
problem.
I wonder if we will end up with a Liverpool Metropolitan
Cathedral solution: massive architectural undercroft with a
much-reduced structure on top of it.
Could be, though I think the current plan is still to build the massive
white elephant originally planned for the full Y-shaped route. They?ve
cut
the number of Euston platforms, but for some reason, not Curzon
Street. But
perhaps Mark Wild will include that as part of his reset?
There is still the opportunity to run 400 m trains London-Birmingham if
the demand exists (i.e. if fares are low enough).
More generally, and not directly affecting Curzon St, there is a mention
of considering two lengths of unit.ÿ As suggested earlier, these could
be something like 150 m and 250 m so a 400 m train can run as far as the
new infrastructure has been built then split into a 250 m train to a big destination and a 150 m portion to somewhere with lower demand.
Combining both options should make stock interoperable between the
captive London-Birmingham shuttle and longer routes which switch to
existing lines at Handsacre or elsewhere.
On 08/03/2026 16:37, Certes wrote:
On 08/03/2026 16:14, Recliner wrote:
Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
Adrian wrote:
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet, >>>>> why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that >>>>> will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although >>>>> I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station. >>>>>
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at >>>>> this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly >>>>> (time and money) delay.ÿ However, as the project appears to be awash >>>>> with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a >>>>> problem.
I wonder if we will end up with a Liverpool Metropolitan
Cathedral solution: massive architectural undercroft with a
much-reduced structure on top of it.
Could be, though I think the current plan is still to build the massive
white elephant originally planned for the full Y-shaped route. They?ve
cut
the number of Euston platforms, but for some reason, not Curzon
Street. But
perhaps Mark Wild will include that as part of his reset?
There is still the opportunity to run 400 m trains London-Birmingham if
the demand exists (i.e. if fares are low enough).
More generally, and not directly affecting Curzon St, there is a mention
of considering two lengths of unit.ÿ As suggested earlier, these could
be something like 150 m and 250 m so a 400 m train can run as far as the
new infrastructure has been built then split into a 250 m train to a big
destination and a 150 m portion to somewhere with lower demand.
Combining both options should make stock interoperable between the
captive London-Birmingham shuttle and longer routes which switch to
existing lines at Handsacre or elsewhere.
Two different train lengths would be a bad idea. Inevitably there would
be occasions when two 250m trains met and create potential problems down
the line.
Something the size of an 11 coach Pendolino would be better - hopefully
with a better, less claustrophobic internal layout.
Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
Adrian wrote:
If construction work (rather than site clearance) hasn't started yet,
why have they spent the last several months piling and building
retaining walls. The newly built concrete viaduct (Duddleston 3 ?) that
will form the station throat certainly isn't "site clearance", although
I suppose we could argue about what actually constitutes the station.
Whilst the station could be built to take different sized trains, at
this stage the design, planning and contract changes would be a costly
(time and money) delay. However, as the project appears to be awash
with money, and running well ahead of schedule, perhaps this isn't a
problem.
I wonder if we will end up with a Liverpool Metropolitan
Cathedral solution: massive architectural undercroft with a
much-reduced structure on top of it.
Could be, though I think the current plan is still to build the massive
white elephant originally planned for the full Y-shaped route. They?ve cut >the number of Euston platforms, but for some reason, not Curzon Street. But >perhaps Mark Wild will include that as part of his reset?
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost
over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint >> venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services
deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well >> as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or
compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers. >>
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new >> HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they >> would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units. >>
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was >> made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast
mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester.
But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to
accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century >> ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are
operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of >> HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil >> details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London >> and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits
for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is >> preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the
London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the >> war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train >> contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted >> to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30 >> sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much earlier!
Am 07.03.2026 um 18:50 schrieb Recliner:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be >>> radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint >>> venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to >>> Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond >>> Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well >>> as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or
compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers. >>>
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But >>> it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of >>> the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not >>> have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new >>> HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they >>> would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units. >>>
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was >>> made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century >>> ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are
operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of >>> HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or >>> even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil >>> details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London >>> and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is >>> preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and >>> 2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old >>> Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s. >>>
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019 >>> prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the >>> final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the >>> war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train >>> contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted >>> to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to >>> the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30 >>> sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of >>> the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m >> long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much >> earlier!
Or, combining the wishes to be European-compatible and Manchester compatible, build units of 133m, run tripe to Birmingham and leave one
unit there ;-)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> posted:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be >>>> radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to >>>> Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond >>>> Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers. >>>>
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But >>>> it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of >>>> the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not >>>> have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s >>>> plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units. >>>>
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was >>>> made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of >>>> HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or >>>> even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London >>>> and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and >>>> 2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old >>>> Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s. >>>>
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019 >>>> prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the >>>> final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train >>>> contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted >>>> to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to >>>> the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30 >>>> sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of >>>> the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m >>> long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much >>> earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter
that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
What's the problem? We do operate quite new 346m and 374m
HS trainsets here [...] but not in double units...
Am 08.03.2026 um 10:15 schrieb Ulf Kutzner:
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> posted:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54 >>>> trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs. >>>>
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with >>>> discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s >>>> plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti. >>>>
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a >>>> feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire, >>>> unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m
long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much
earlier!
And since they are going to have to be BR-compatible then it won?t matter >> that they aren?t European standard 200m trains!
What's the problem? We do operate quite new 346m and 374m
HS trainsets here [...] but not in double units...
You might remember that these were originally designed to have a top
speed of 249 km/h in order to avoid the EU rules for high-speed trains
TSI class 1.
Am 07.03.2026 um 18:50 schrieb Recliner:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
ÿFrom The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is
to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a
joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was
said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from
London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line
beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two
train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains,
as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or
compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK
taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required.
But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than
half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would
not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s
plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of
the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged
that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre
units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a
decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a
century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are
operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the
length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer
? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to
unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between
London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail
project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029
and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from
Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the
2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in
2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take
the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed
by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised
train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are
contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been
made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years
after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs
included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK
across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not
verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical
requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build
265m
long trains.ÿ They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me
much
earlier!
Or, combining the wishes to be European-compatible and Manchester compatible, build units of 133m, run tripe to Birmingham and leave one
unit there ;-)
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
Am 07.03.2026 um 18:50 schrieb Recliner:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
From The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is to be >>> radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from London to >>> Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line beyond >>> Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains, as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. But >>> it is understood the final number will be significantly more than half of >>> the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would not >>> have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s >>> plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer ? or >>> even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 and >>> 2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from Old >>> Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the 2040s. >>>
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in 2019 >>> prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take the >>> final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been made to >>> the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical requirements of >>> the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build 265m >> long trains. They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me much >> earlier!
Or, combining the wishes to be European-compatible and Manchester compatible, build units of 133m, run tripe to Birmingham and leave one unit there
Perhaps return to loco hauled coaching stock? Then you can have variable lengths.
On 09/03/2026 10:23, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 07.03.2026 um 18:50 schrieb Recliner:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
ÿFrom The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is
to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a >>>> joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from
London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line
beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains,
as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK
taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. >>>> But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than
half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would >>>> not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s >>>> plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of
the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged
that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre
units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a
decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a
century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the
length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer
? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to
unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between
London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail
project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 >>>> and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from >>>> Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the
2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in
2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take >>>> the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed
by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised
train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are
contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been
made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK
across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical
requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build
265m
long trains.ÿ They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me
much
earlier!
Or, combining the wishes to be European-compatible and Manchester
compatible, build units of 133m, run tripe to Birmingham and leave one
unit there ;-)
...or send the shorter unit north to a smaller city.
I don't think these units need to be European-compatible. A 133 m
unit wastes a large portion of its length on ends without seating.
One 266 m unit rather than two of 133 m will add a lot more seats.
On 09/03/2026 10:23, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 07.03.2026 um 18:50 schrieb Recliner:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
ÿFrom The Times
A œ2 billion contract to build dozens of ?bullet trains? for HS2 is
to be
radically shaken up as ministers prepare to unveil fresh delays and cost >>> over-runs in the controversial rail project.
In December 2021, the Conservative government awarded a contract to a >>> joint
venture between Japanese firm Hitachi and France?s Alstom to build 54
trains at sites in Derby, Crewe and Co Durham. Worth œ2 billion, it was >>> said at the time that the deal would support or create 2,500 UK jobs.
But the contract, which also included a 12-year maintenance and services >>> deal, was awarded when it was envisaged that HS2 would run from
London to
Manchester. The project was subsequently pared back, with the line
beyond
Birmingham axed.
Officials from the Department for Transport and counterparts at the two >>> train makers have opened talks about reducing the number of trains,
as well
as reconfiguring the train length, according to sources familiar with
discussions.
Changing the terms of the contract could result in penalty payments or >>> compensation to the two train makers. HS2 is fully funded by UK
taxpayers.
It is yet to be finalised how many of the 54 trains will be required. >>> But
it is understood the final number will be significantly more than
half of
the original order. Whitehall sources insisted that the changes would >>> not
have an impact jobs at Alstom?s works in Crewe and Derby and Hitachi?s >>> plant in Newton Aycliffe, Co Durham.
A second focal point of the talks is understood to be the length of
the new
HS2 trains. Designed to reach 225mph, it was originally envisaged
that they
would have a maximum length of 400 metres, comprising two 200-metre
units.
The government placed the order for the trains years before a
decision was
made in October 2023 to axe the HS2 line beyond Birmingham.
The new HS2 trains are now expected to switch to the existing west coast >>> mainline en route to destinations in the North West, such as Manchester. >>> But Manchester?s Piccadilly station does not have 400-metre platforms to >>> accommodate the HS2 locomotives and carriages.
Running a single 200-metre unit, however, would leave HS2 in the
embarrassing situation of the trains being shorter than the current
Pendolino fleet run by the much-maligned inter-city operator Avanti.
The tilting Pendolinos, which entered service nearly a quarter of a
century
ago, measure between 217 and 265 metres, depending on whether they are >>> operating a 9 or 11-car set-up.
As a result, a range of options is being discussed to change the
length of
HS2 trains. This could result in them being shortened or made longer
? or
even being built at two different lengths.
The talks come as transport secretary Heidi Alexander is expected to
unveil
details of a major ?reset? to the remaining high-speed line between
London
and Birmingham in the coming weeks. HS2 boss Mark Wild, who won plaudits >>> for addressing delays and budget blowouts on London?s Crossrail
project, is
preparing a ?new baseline? that will include updated forecasts and a
feasible timetable.
Officially, passenger services on the section between Birmingham and the >>> London suburb station at Old Oak Common are due to start between 2029 >>> and
2033. Wild has warned that the 2029 date is ?unlikely?. The link from >>> Old
Oak Common to London?s Euston is not expected to be live until the
2040s.
The current estimated cost of phase one of HS2 between London and
Birmingham is between œ54 billion and œ67 billion, though this is in
2019
prices and does not account for inflation, which some think will take >>> the
final bill to nearer œ100 billion.
The publication of the reset, which is rumoured to have been delayed
by the
war in the Middle East, will precede the finalisation of the revised
train
contract.
A spokesman for HS2 said: ?The Hitachi-Alstom joint venture are
contracted
to deliver a fleet of 54 new trains for HS2. No changes have been
made to
the original order.?
The contract has been embroiled in controversy. In late 2023, two years >>> after it was announced, The Sunday Times revealed that original designs >>> included carriages without enough doors.
Siemens Mobility, which employs more than 5,000 people in the UK
across 30
sites, including a new train-building plant in Goole, West Yorkshire,
unsuccessfully sued the government over the award, claiming HS2 did not >>> verify whether the joint venture could meet the technical
requirements of
the project
So it looks like they might be belatedly following my advice to build
265m
long trains.ÿ They could have saved a lot of money by listening to me
much
earlier!
Or, combining the wishes to be European-compatible and Manchester compatible, build units of 133m, run tripe to Birmingham and leave one unit there ;-)
...or send the shorter unit north to a smaller city.
I don't think these units need to be European-compatible. A 133 m
unit wastes a large portion of its length on ends without seating.
One 266 m unit rather than two of 133 m will add a lot more seats.
More:
HS2 trains could be downgraded for use elsewhere
https://www.thetimes.com/article/5a28aa7b-11d2-4d4c-be99-257a77821bc7?shareToken=d95730d35087f2aee033d14a0cd94f68
It has now emerged that the Department for Transport (DfT) is considering a plan for both Hitachi and Alstom to produce trains that could be used for
not only HS2 but also the existing London to Birmingham west coast main
line, where the top speed is 125mph.
In addition to providing work for the Durham and Derby plants, it would dovetail with the impending retirements of the Pendolino tilting train rolling stock, which is due to come out of commission from the turn of the decade.
An Avanti West Coast Alstom Class 390 Pendolino tilting train passes
Natland, Cumbria, on a clear, sunny morning.
The DfT has declined to comment, but a senior industry source said: ?We
need to keep these factories busy. Given where we are with HS2 it may be
that the solution is that the spec gets changed and we build trains that
can run on both HS2 and the west coast main line.
?It could make sense as it is not expected that the Pendolino fleet [introduced in 2002] will go much past their 30th birthdays.?
On 09/03/2026 12:40, Recliner wrote:
More:
HS2 trains could be downgraded for use elsewhere
https://www.thetimes.com/article/5a28aa7b-11d2-4d4c-be99-257a77821bc7?shareToken=d95730d35087f2aee033d14a0cd94f68
It has now emerged that the Department for Transport (DfT) is considering a >> plan for both Hitachi and Alstom to produce trains that could be used for
not only HS2 but also the existing London to Birmingham west coast main
line, where the top speed is 125mph.
In addition to providing work for the Durham and Derby plants, it would
dovetail with the impending retirements of the Pendolino tilting train
rolling stock, which is due to come out of commission from the turn of the >> decade.
That sounds very sensible. I expect they can gear them for either 125
or whatever higher speed is feasible for HS2.
An Avanti West Coast Alstom Class 390 Pendolino tilting train passes
Natland, Cumbria, on a clear, sunny morning.
Yes, we get those occasionally even in the Lake District.
The DfT has declined to comment, but a senior industry source said: ?We
need to keep these factories busy. Given where we are with HS2 it may be
that the solution is that the spec gets changed and we build trains that
can run on both HS2 and the west coast main line.
?It could make sense as it is not expected that the Pendolino fleet
[introduced in 2002] will go much past their 30th birthdays.?
Sorry to sound like Boltar but at least we don't now have to give this
work away to a state-subsidised factory at the other end of Europe.
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