I am increasingly amused -- to the point of dismay! -- about how
little common sense is noted in "answers" provided by tools.

Search engines, of course, are notoriously bad at allowing for
criteria refinement -- the more terms you add (increasing specificity),
the more results you get!

But, it seems to be creeping into more "solutions" -- where the
algorithm chosen simply doesn't exhibit common sense.

E.g., specifying "Penny's" [sic] in the GS gives me a location
some 1000+ miles from here! Does the GPS (which could have been
observing ALL of my travels for the past decade -- never leaving
the city limits in that vehicle!) think I *suddenly* am interested
in a cross-country trek? Wouldn't a more likely scenario be that
something is wrong with the criteria I've specified (or, its
interpretation of it)?

"I find no destinations within a 25 mile radius. Would you like to
expand your search criteria? Or, change the destination sought?"
(instead of trying to dick with a device while driving)

[You *do* know that it is "THE Home Depot" and not "Home Depot"]

SWMBO went looking for a woman's garment. 73,000 hits (at a brick
and mortar). Really? Do you even HAVE 70,000 items in stock???

So, instead of using the 6 words that THEIR web page had used to
describe the item -- or, the 10 digit number that was embedded in
the URL as a likely "item number" -- she should say, what: "garment"?

Just because a machine is performing the task, doesn't mean it shouldn't
be "thinking about" the results it is providing ("How is providing
70,000 hits going to improve the shopping experience for this POTENTIAL customer? Maybe I should interact with them and ask for more guidance
instead of just throwing page after page at them and hoping they find
SOMETHING before closing the browser or moving off to Amazon, Costco...")

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/26/26 23:48, Don Y wrote:

I am increasingly amused -- to the point of dismay! -- about how
little common sense is noted in "answers" provided by tools.

Search engines, of course, are notoriously bad at allowing for
criteria refinement -- the more terms you add (increasing specificity),
the more results you get!

But, it seems to be creeping into more "solutions" -- where the
algorithm chosen simply doesn't exhibit common sense.

E.g., specifying "Penny's" [sic] in the GS gives me a location
some 1000+ miles from here!ÿ Does the GPS (which could have been
observing ALL of my travels for the past decade -- never leaving
the city limits in that vehicle!) think I *suddenly* am interested
in a cross-country trek?ÿ Wouldn't a more likely scenario be that
something is wrong with the criteria I've specified (or, its
interpretation of it)?

I don't agree. I don't want a machine trying to second-guess
my intentions. It's supposed to do what I ask for, even if
the results aren't pertinent.

I *do* agree that giving more criteria should narrow down
the results, not expand them. Search engines used to accept
boolean logic and regular expressions, but not anymore. Too
geeky, I suppose.

Jeroen Belleman


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/27/26 10:02, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 1/26/26 23:48, Don Y wrote:

I am increasingly amused -- to the point of dismay! -- about how
little common sense is noted in "answers" provided by tools.

Search engines, of course, are notoriously bad at allowing for
criteria refinement -- the more terms you add (increasing specificity),
the more results you get!

But, it seems to be creeping into more "solutions" -- where the
algorithm chosen simply doesn't exhibit common sense.

E.g., specifying "Penny's" [sic] in the GS gives me a location
some 1000+ miles from here!ÿ Does the GPS (which could have been
observing ALL of my travels for the past decade -- never leaving
the city limits in that vehicle!) think I *suddenly* am interested
in a cross-country trek?ÿ Wouldn't a more likely scenario be that
something is wrong with the criteria I've specified (or, its
interpretation of it)?

I don't agree. I don't want a machine trying to second-guess
my intentions. It's supposed to do what I ask for, even if
the results aren't pertinent.

I *do* agree that giving more criteria should narrow down
the results, not expand them. Search engines used to accept
boolean logic and regular expressions, but not anymore. Too
geeky, I suppose.

Jeroen Belleman

Another point, in favour of AI, this time. The search results
from search engines are intentionally crafted to *not* show
any pertinent answers in the list of search results, so that
you are forced to actually click on a link to see more.
(Often to discover that it still doesn't give you the info
you were looking for.)

The AI-generated blurb often *does* provide the desired
answer without needing to click through.

I expect this will be temporary, until everyone learns to
spoil the game.

Jeroen Belleman


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

I am increasingly amused -- to the point of dismay! -- about how
little common sense is noted in "answers" provided by tools.

Search engines, of course, are notoriously bad at allowing for
criteria refinement -- the more terms you add (increasing specificity),
the more results you get!

But, it seems to be creeping into more "solutions" -- where the
algorithm chosen simply doesn't exhibit common sense.

This is deliberate. If you search for 'thing', it first shows you what it thinks are the best matches (for you or those which make the best revenue
for them).

But tech companies have decided that people don't like being told 'that's
it, I didn't find anything else' (because you might leave the site and go somewhere else, and eyeballs = revenue) so what they do is show you junk
that may or may not be tenuously connected to what you searched for. You
get a thousand pages of search results but only the first handful are
actually related to your search.

The trick is to spot at what point the results fell off a cliff and stop
there. When you realise this is what's happening it's quite easy to
identify.

E.g., specifying "Penny's" [sic] in the GS gives me a location
some 1000+ miles from here! Does the GPS (which could have been
observing ALL of my travels for the past decade -- never leaving
the city limits in that vehicle!) think I *suddenly* am interested
in a cross-country trek? Wouldn't a more likely scenario be that
something is wrong with the criteria I've specified (or, its
interpretation of it)?

"I find no destinations within a 25 mile radius. Would you like to
expand your search criteria? Or, change the destination sought?"
(instead of trying to dick with a device while driving)

That's possibly the opposite problem, that the primitive on-device search in the GPS is not fuzzy enough to handle variations. eg if the store is coded
in its DB as "Pennys" then perhaps "Penny's" doesn't match.

Theo

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

|I cannot suggest searching the Web, because search engines deteriorated| |beyond any usability. Just ask what you need here. |

Search engines (in the sense of Google, DDG, etc.) are different beasts;
a much wider domain and range.

But, a product (e.g., GPS) can provide "assistance" in specifying
destinations by constraining the destinations to those that it
recognizes. This accelerates data entry as well as eliminating the
"Invalid destination specified" error phase of unconstrained input.

In the US, there is a retailer named "J C Penney". Most folks likely
refer to it as "Penney's". Or, misspell it as "Penny's". As *both*
are valid destination names, there is no way for the user to realize his spelling mistake *or* incorrect name usage.

And, the device sees this as "valid" input ("Hey, maybe the guy
actually WANTS to go to Pennys! Someone must as it is a valid
destination in my internal database!")

Likewise, "The Home Depot" is typically referred to as "Home Depot"
despite the actual name being "The Home Depot". But, again, there
is a valid destination called "Home Depot" (that is NOT the destination intended as "The Home Depot").

Again, no way to alert the user to his mistake as it's NOT a mistake
in the eyes of the GPS!

However, in each of these examples, the *intended* destinations are
within a few miles of my location. Not 1200 or 1400 miles from here!

When the destination found is displayed, none of the details on the
map make any sense. You only realize it is incorrect ("not desired")
when you notice the distance field (off on the side) indicates more
than 1000 miles and a few days driving time!

"Common Sense" would suggest the results offered in these cases
are likely NOT what the user sought -- simply because they are
so far away even if you ignore the fact that past driving history
suggests purely "local" driving -- and, often included destinations
(based on their GPS coordinates) that match similar entries in
the database.

[Remember, the user isn't sitting at a computer keyboard but, rather,
behind the wheel of a vehicle using a kludged keyboard to enter his
selections. And, can only do so when the vehicle is stopped (or,
rely on voice input). So, you *really* want to take the extra effort
to sort out what the user likely wants -- instead of providing the
answer you THINK is "correct" based on a naive system design.]

[[If the cashier at the grocery store indicates that your total
bill is $3,428.94, the cashier is daffy to even speak that figure
aloud without prior checking what you've purchased and the prices
charged for each item. Even data retrieved from a database via
barcoded product labels can be in error! "Common Sense"]]

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/27/2026 6:05 AM, Theo wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

I am increasingly amused -- to the point of dismay! -- about how
little common sense is noted in "answers" provided by tools.

Search engines, of course, are notoriously bad at allowing for
criteria refinement -- the more terms you add (increasing specificity),
the more results you get!

But, it seems to be creeping into more "solutions" -- where the
algorithm chosen simply doesn't exhibit common sense.

This is deliberate. If you search for 'thing', it first shows you what it thinks are the best matches (for you or those which make the best revenue
for them).

If I type in EXACTLY the description of an item FROM A COMPANY'S SITE,
I expect that to be the FIRST result. Not one of 73,000!

Similarly, if the URL is something like:

http://foo.com/long-description-of-the-item-sought/X344-09583-9

I would assume searching for "X344-09583" would bring me to that unique page (as it does on Amazon, Ebay, etc.).

I would NOT expect a large number and variety of items that are completely unrelated to "long-description-of-the-item-sought".

The goal of a vendor is to make a sale. Sure, they want to slip
in a few "related" items to entice you to make a different/additional
purchase.

But, not 73,000 of them.

And, they should make damn sure the item you likely seek is included
at or near the top of their results -- lest you go elsewhere.

But tech companies have decided that people don't like being told 'that's
it, I didn't find anything else' (because you might leave the site and go somewhere else, and eyeballs = revenue) so what they do is show you junk
that may or may not be tenuously connected to what you searched for. You
get a thousand pages of search results but only the first handful are actually related to your search.

Pages are cheap. You can add "these might ALSO be of interest to you"
to make it clear that they aren't as good of a match to the search
criteria.

The trick is to spot at what point the results fell off a cliff and stop there. When you realise this is what's happening it's quite easy to identify.

That makes sense for generic searches. But, when you are being very specific (using the terms that the site has used to identify your item), you expect better.

E.g., specifying "Penny's" [sic] in the GS gives me a location
some 1000+ miles from here! Does the GPS (which could have been
observing ALL of my travels for the past decade -- never leaving
the city limits in that vehicle!) think I *suddenly* am interested
in a cross-country trek? Wouldn't a more likely scenario be that
something is wrong with the criteria I've specified (or, its
interpretation of it)?

"I find no destinations within a 25 mile radius. Would you like to
expand your search criteria? Or, change the destination sought?"
(instead of trying to dick with a device while driving)

That's possibly the opposite problem, that the primitive on-device search in the GPS is not fuzzy enough to handle variations. eg if the store is coded in its DB as "Pennys" then perhaps "Penny's" doesn't match.

It goes beyond that.

To their credit, they ignore punctuation -- and even whitespace!
But, if the proper spelling is "Penney" (not plural!) and the
proper NAME is "J C Penney" -- but it is colloquially known as "Pennys"/"Penneys" (I wonder how many folks would remember the
second E in the name?), there is no easy way to accommodate this in
a device with limited resources.

Similarly "The Home Depot" is known as "Home Depot" -- to everyone
BUT the GPS!

When these "colloquial" names happen to collide with other valid
names in the device's dataset, you get results -- that are "correct"
in the eyes of the device yet wholly incorrect in the eyes of the user.

Of course, a *web* search will readily identify the desired site.

However, the device WILL know that the results are not local (in these
two examples, the results returned by the GPS were for locations
1200 and 1400 *miles* away instead of "down the road a bit").
Blaming the user (which is what you are effectively doing) for
incorrectly specifying the destination is just "bad design".

Again, recall the user is interacting with the device IN A VEHICLE
while primarily concerned with DRIVING. And, viewing the results
on a tiny screen that is trying to convey lots of information,
all of it inappropriate for his intended goal! (No, it's not
1200 miles from here. It's not a 20 hour drive. I won't get there
at 4PM tomorrow afternoon. The map displayed is incorrect.
The driving instructions also.)

I can just see the *engineer* who designed the functionality,
feeling self-righteous because he produced the "correct" answer
(for the input given), despite it being 100% useless.

We use the "egg timer" in our microwave oven for short interval
timing -- baking cookies, pancakes, etc. (this because the
timer in the oven is ghastly, hard to interact with, doesn't allow
specifying fractional minutes, etc.).

Type "45" and you get 45 seconds. Nope, pancakes aren't cooked fully.
Let's try 60. Still no good. How about 90? No, just a bit more.
OK, 100 should do it!

Wait! That was just 60 seconds, not 100! (Oh...)

And, 160 is actually 2 minutes. 180 is 2:20, etc.

Attempting to be too clever just adds to confusion.

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number
of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER,
then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature,
etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons
on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 26/01/2026 22:48, Don Y wrote:

I am increasingly amused -- to the point of dismay! -- about how
little common sense is noted in "answers" provided by tools.

Search engines, of course, are notoriously bad at allowing for
criteria refinement -- the more terms you add (increasing specificity),
the more results you get!

I don't see that at all.

If I narrow down the search with -bad_keyword then all the bogus hits
are usually eliminated from that unwanted source.

Where I do see a problem is +wanted_keyword doesn't always work :(
(sites I know to contain the last keyword added don't always show up)

Try adding successive terms to this Google search:

Yorkshire +castle +BEST +Howard -lake

By default search terms are logically or together of the keywords if you
don't add the prefix or surround a phrase with quotes.

--
Martin Brown


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]

...How is providing
70,000 hits going to improve the shopping experience for this POTENTIAL customer?

The first 10 hits will generate advertising revenue for the search
engine. That's what it is there to do; you are the product, not the
customer.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/27/2026 6:36 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

On 26/01/2026 22:48, Don Y wrote:

I am increasingly amused -- to the point of dismay! -- about how
little common sense is noted in "answers" provided by tools.

Search engines, of course, are notoriously bad at allowing for
criteria refinement -- the more terms you add (increasing specificity),
the more results you get!

I don't see that at all.

Go to "your favorite retailer's website". The interface is far
less "sophisticated" than a search engine like google.

Some make a good effort at trying to "understand" what is being sought.
E.g., if I go to the USPS website and type a very long identifier
into their search box, it "knows" that I am likely specifying a tracking
number for a parcel and produces those results. If I type "forever stamp"
I don't expect to see any tracking information.

If I go to my local library's site and type "Hours", I get hits for
a film called "Hours", a book called "Hours", a film called "The Hours",
books called "His Hour", "By the Hour", etc. Nothing about "Minutes",
"Days", etc. Chances are, the earliest results are most likely the
desired results.

If I go to Target.com (a department store, here), I get 432 results, with
"The Hours" as the 15th result -- behind:
Magic Hour
The Blue Hour
Every Hour Until Then
Twenty Four Hours a Day
The 24th Hour
The After Hours
The Witching Hour
Blue Hour (not the same as The Blue Hour, above)
The Hour I first Believed
Our Hours Are Married to Shadow
Hour of the Pumpkin Queen
Happier Hour
One Hour for My Priest
The Secret Hours
The Hours !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is there some reason "Magic Hour" is a better result, in their mind?
DESPITE MY SEARCH CRITERIA APPEARING EXACTLY AS SPECIFIED IN THEIR RESULTS?

Other sites just throw results at you and leave it to you to sort
through THEIR mess.

If Target wanted to sell me that book, I would likely have given up
before scrolling through several rows of pictorial results (4 per row).

Is there any guarantee that it will be in the fourth row? Tenth?

Other results:

The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo
The First Time I Saw Him
The Good Girl Effect
Tourist Season
Reckless
etc.

(and some 15 more pages) "The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo" *almost* matches... there's "The", an 'H' in "Husbands", an 'o' in "of",
a 'u' in "Hugo"... just missing the final 'r'!

<rolls eyes>

If I narrow down the search with -bad_keyword then all the bogus hits are usually eliminated from that unwanted source.

Where I do see a problem is +wanted_keyword doesn't always work :(
(sites I know to contain the last keyword added don't always show up)

Try adding successive terms to this Google search:

Yorkshire +castle +BEST +Howard -lake

By default search terms are logically or together of the keywords if you don't
add the prefix or surround a phrase with quotes.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/27/2026 7:20 AM, Don Y wrote:

On 1/27/2026 6:36 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

On 26/01/2026 22:48, Don Y wrote:

I am increasingly amused -- to the point of dismay! -- about how
little common sense is noted in "answers" provided by tools.

Search engines, of course, are notoriously bad at allowing for
criteria refinement -- the more terms you add (increasing specificity),
the more results you get!

I don't see that at all.

Go to "your favorite retailer's website".ÿ The interface is far
less "sophisticated" than a search engine like google.

Some make a good effort at trying to "understand" what is being sought.
E.g., if I go to the USPS website and type a very long identifier
into their search box, it "knows" that I am likely specifying a tracking number for a parcel and produces those results.ÿ If I type "forever stamp"
I don't expect to see any tracking information.

If I go to my local library's site and type "Hours", I get hits for
a film called "Hours", a book called "Hours", a film called "The Hours", books called "His Hour", "By the Hour", etc.ÿ Nothing about "Minutes", "Days", etc.ÿ Chances are, the earliest results are most likely the
desired results.

If I go to Target.com (a department store, here), I get 432 results, with "The Hours" as the 15th result -- behind:

(Sorry, I should have been cleared, here. "Hours" produces a list of
store hours -- a reasonable assumption. So, I searched for "The Hours"
as the library had told me it was a valid book title)

Magic Hour
The Blue Hour
Every Hour Until Then
Twenty Four Hours a Day
The 24th Hour
The After Hours
The Witching Hour
Blue Hour (not the same as The Blue Hour, above)
The Hour I first Believed
Our Hours Are Married to Shadow
Hour of the Pumpkin Queen
Happier Hour
One Hour for My Priest
The Secret Hours
The Hours !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is there some reason "Magic Hour" is a better result, in their mind?
DESPITE MY SEARCH CRITERIA APPEARING EXACTLY AS SPECIFIED IN THEIR RESULTS?

Other sites just throw results at you and leave it to you to sort
through THEIR mess.

If Target wanted to sell me that book, I would likely have given up
before scrolling through several rows of pictorial results (4 per row).

Is there any guarantee that it will be in the fourth row?ÿ Tenth?

Other results:

The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo
The First Time I Saw Him
The Good Girl Effect
Tourist Season
Reckless
etc.

(and some 15 more pages)ÿ "The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo" *almost* matches... there's "The", an 'H' in "Husbands", an 'o' in "of",
a 'u' in "Hugo"...ÿ just missing the final 'r'!

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/27/2026 6:45 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]

...How is providing
70,000 hits going to improve the shopping experience for this POTENTIAL
customer?

The first 10 hits will generate advertising revenue for the search
engine. That's what it is there to do; you are the product, not the customer.

At a *store's* web site, the goal is for the store to sell a
PRODUCT that they have in stock (as known by the literal description
of the item on THEIR web page).

They gain nothing if they point me at products that are not what I
expressly sought. All 73,000 of them!


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number
of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER,
then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature,
etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons
on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes' markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them).
One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the
food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver
this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed
on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so
it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap
to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/27/2026 6:45 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]

...How is providing
70,000 hits going to improve the shopping experience for this POTENTIAL
customer?

The first 10 hits will generate advertising revenue for the search
engine. That's what it is there to do; you are the product, not the customer.

At a *store's* web site, the goal is for the store to sell a
PRODUCT that they have in stock (as known by the literal description
of the item on THEIR web page).

They gain nothing if they point me at products that are not what I
expressly sought. All 73,000 of them!

They don't write their own websites, they pay an 'expert' to fill in a
template provided by one of the big players. The 'search' feature is ultimately controlled by the major search engines, not by the store.

Some websites are fixed and the client has to pay the webmaster every
time they want to update it - so they don't. Even if they have the
option to update the website themselves, to reflect their current stock,
they soon discover it is a huge chore for smaller businesses with
constant stock changes, so they give up and the information will be
wrong anyway.

It's all painting by numbers these days. I have had several
hand-written customised websites taken off me and handed to 'experts'
who replace them with content-free template rubbish with huge graphics
that looked good to the client. At least one of my clients had the
decency to come back to me and ask me to reinstate his old website as
the 'improved' one was useless.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/27/2026 8:32 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number
of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER,
then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature,
etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons
on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes' markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them).
One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the
food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver
this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed
on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so
it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap
to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.

Ours has independant settings for power level and time.

There are some specialty settings (like "defrost" which accepts
a *weight* of the item being defrosted). Or, cooking settings
for different types of food (Sauce, Hot Beverages, Snacks, popcorn,
etc.)

We bought a microwave for mother-in-law ~40 years ago. At the
time, the big choice was "numeric keypad" vs. "dial". I
prefered the former because it was likely more reliable
(no moving parts) and much easier to clean. But, the "dial"
was far more intuitive to her.

The scale was non-linear -- you could dial fine increments
of time for small durations (e.g., 10 second intervals up to
a minute or so) and coarser for longer periods (minutes).

The oven is a different beast with far more options:
- one or two independant ovens
- bake, broil, convection, dehydrate, etc.
- delay start
- two types of cleaning cycles (quick vs. thorough)
- "Sabbath" mode, "demand mode" (tie in with public utility
- time/date setting, wifi settings, etc.

I.e., you can see how there would be appeal for a "universal"
interface. But, no one thought it through in terms of
actual use model.

Or, the different types of interactions that one COULD
experience. E.g., if you are in the middle of setting
<something> and the oven calls for attention -- perhaps
because a timer has expired -- the SINGLE UI gets confused
leaving you with "Power Off" as the only real way to get
to a known state (and then restart whatever was happening
at the time).

I can just see the engineer pitching how clever the
"universal interface" could address all of the needs
of the oven/user. But, no one thinking about how
PRACTICAL those interactions would be. Do you really
want to have to go through all these steps just to
turn the oven on??

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Mon, 26 Jan 2026 15:48:22 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

I am increasingly amused -- to the point of dismay! -- about how
little common sense is noted in "answers" provided by tools.

Search engines, of course, are notoriously bad at allowing for
criteria refinement -- the more terms you add (increasing specificity),
the more results you get!

But, it seems to be creeping into more "solutions" -- where the
algorithm chosen simply doesn't exhibit common sense.

E.g., specifying "Penny's" [sic] in the GS gives me a location
some 1000+ miles from here! Does the GPS (which could have been
observing ALL of my travels for the past decade -- never leaving
the city limits in that vehicle!) think I *suddenly* am interested
in a cross-country trek? Wouldn't a more likely scenario be that
something is wrong with the criteria I've specified (or, its
interpretation of it)?

"I find no destinations within a 25 mile radius. Would you like to
expand your search criteria? Or, change the destination sought?"
(instead of trying to dick with a device while driving)

[You *do* know that it is "THE Home Depot" and not "Home Depot"]

SWMBO went looking for a woman's garment. 73,000 hits (at a brick
and mortar). Really? Do you even HAVE 70,000 items in stock???

So, instead of using the 6 words that THEIR web page had used to
describe the item -- or, the 10 digit number that was embedded in
the URL as a likely "item number" -- she should say, what: "garment"?

Just because a machine is performing the task, doesn't mean it shouldn't
be "thinking about" the results it is providing ("How is providing
70,000 hits going to improve the shopping experience for this POTENTIAL >customer? Maybe I should interact with them and ask for more guidance >instead of just throwing page after page at them and hoping they find >SOMETHING before closing the browser or moving off to Amazon, Costco...")

We were discussing how AI is scaring all the CE/EE grads, the coders,
which makes sense to me. Coding in a precedural language is like
spinning and weaving and sewing clothes by hand.

But our issue is whether AI can replace circuit designers. I think
not. There are too many possible circuits for a small number of words
to invent one. And the side issues of flexibility, manufacturability,
thermals, packaging, all that.

As you note, as we think about a design in progress we should be
willing to change our minds about everything, including whether we
even want to do it.




John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 15:32:14 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number
of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER,
then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature,
etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons
on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes' >markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them).
One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the
food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver
this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed
on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so
it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap
to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.

I remember those. When was it made?

Modern microwaves have a thousand choices. Or so it seems. It all
boils down to two "knobs", RF Power Level (ten levels) and how long to
run in minutes and seconds. The rest is pure fluff. Fortunately,
there is a way to directly select those, and this is what we use.

One of my wife's friends recently got a new microwave, and was totally
baffled by the choices, and was very relieved when shown the secret of
the knobs.

Joe

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 15:32:14 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number
of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER,
then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature, >> etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons
on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes' >markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them).
One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the >food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver >this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed
on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so
it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap
to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.

I remember those. When was it made?

I don't know for certain, I rescued it from a waste skip some time in
the early 1990s. The belt drive to the turntable gearing had snapped
and replacements weren't available because it was illegal in the UK to
sell microwave oven spares that required the use of a tool to install
them (i.e. a screwdriver to remove the covers). The glass plate had
also broken when it was thrown in the skip but replacements for that
were still available.

I made a belt from a large 'O' ring and used it for years. It has since
got through 2 more belts, one magnetron and a suppression capacitor
(highly spectacular failure) but it is still in daily use.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 17:50:55 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 15:32:14 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number >> >> of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER,
then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature, >> >> etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons
on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes'
markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them).
One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the
food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver
this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed
on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so
it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap
to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.

I remember those. When was it made?

I don't know for certain, I rescued it from a waste skip some time in
the early 1990s.

So, 1980s or so.

The belt drive to the turntable gearing had snapped
and replacements weren't available because it was illegal in the UK to
sell microwave oven spares that required the use of a tool to install
them (i.e. a screwdriver to remove the covers). The glass plate had
also broken when it was thrown in the skip but replacements for that
were still available.

Hmm. What was the given rationale for the no-tools law? Or
regulation?

I made a belt from a large 'O' ring and used it for years. It has since
got through 2 more belts, one magnetron and a suppression capacitor
(highly spectacular failure) but it is still in daily use.

Never had to replace a magnetron, but I took the prior microwave apart
and removed the magnetron assembly for some project that never
happened.

Joe

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/27/2026 8:32 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 1/27/2026 6:45 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]

...How is providing
70,000 hits going to improve the shopping experience for this POTENTIAL >>>> customer?

The first 10 hits will generate advertising revenue for the search
engine. That's what it is there to do; you are the product, not the
customer.

At a *store's* web site, the goal is for the store to sell a
PRODUCT that they have in stock (as known by the literal description
of the item on THEIR web page).

They gain nothing if they point me at products that are not what I
expressly sought. All 73,000 of them!

They don't write their own websites, they pay an 'expert' to fill in a template provided by one of the big players. The 'search' feature is ultimately controlled by the major search engines, not by the store.

Someone has the "responsibility" for the functionality of the site.
Someone signs off on whether or not it meets their requirements
(if they stated them improperly, then they're at fault).

Some websites are fixed and the client has to pay the webmaster every
time they want to update it - so they don't. Even if they have the
option to update the website themselves, to reflect their current stock,
they soon discover it is a huge chore for smaller businesses with
constant stock changes, so they give up and the information will be
wrong anyway.

I have rescued "Google search appliances" (typically 1U servers
specialized to handle "local" searches).

It's all painting by numbers these days. I have had several
hand-written customised websites taken off me and handed to 'experts'
who replace them with content-free template rubbish with huge graphics
that looked good to the client. At least one of my clients had the
decency to come back to me and ask me to reinstate his old website as
the 'improved' one was useless.

The companies in question aren't small or "of limited budgets".
From Wikipedia:

"As of 2024, Target is ranked No.?32 on the 2022 Fortune 500
list of the largest American corporations by total revenue. As
of 2025, it operates more than 2,000 stores throughout the United
States."

with 440,000 employees and net revenue of $106B.

Clearly, other sites work well so the flaw is in the design
(specification) of these other sites.

Likewise, the design of our microwave oven, oven/stove, GPS,
etc. People put in decision making positions that clearly don't
have the right mindsets to make good *use* decisions.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/27/2026 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 15:32:14 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number
of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER,
then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature, >>> etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons
on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes'
markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them).
One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the
food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver
this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed
on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so
it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap
to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.

I remember those. When was it made?

Modern microwaves have a thousand choices. Or so it seems. It all
boils down to two "knobs", RF Power Level (ten levels) and how long to
run in minutes and seconds. The rest is pure fluff. Fortunately,
there is a way to directly select those, and this is what we use.

Microwave ovens differ based on:
- internal volume
- maximum power level
- duty cycle algorithm
- "macro" features (presets for common items)
- accessories (e.g., temperature probe, popping corn detector, etc.)
- build quality

Ours has a "beverage" button that is great for reheating hot beverages.
It assumes a ~6 oz "dose" and allows you to indicate 1 or 2 "doses"
are required (my "tea cup" is 16 oz so I hit "BEVERAGE 2" if I poured
it and forgot to drink it or "BEVERAGE" if I've consumed about half and it needs to be "refreshed"

Spaghetti sauce has another setting that neatly fits with the size
containers in which I store my sauce. Defrosting from frozen takes
some time as it uses a lower power level to do so.

There is a chart of common foods and snacks printed inside the
door to let you specify the type of food to cook or reheat.

I *think* it listens for the popcorn to stop popping. (we don't use
microwave popcorn)

And, can monitor the internal temperature of a turkey that is
being defrosted, etc.

And, a button to enable/disable the "keyclick".

Of course, the general purpose timer and clock (smart enough to
realize no need for AM/PM!)

[No carousel, though]

By far, the most used controls are the "add 30 seconds" (which will
turn the unit on, if off, for 30 seconds -- or, add 30 seconds to the
remaining time displayed, if on) and "CLEAR" (or "open door") to
manually stop the cycle. Much easier than manually selecting
"DURATION", a numeric value, "START" (assuming you are happy with the
default power level).

It's over 30 years old; the previous unit had a failed 50W power resistor
to provide the "low power" mode.

One of my wife's friends recently got a new microwave, and was totally baffled by the choices, and was very relieved when shown the secret of
the knobs.

Likely a typical consumer that doesn't want to understand the
product or its offerings. Instead, wants to remember how to set it
for each of the many uses to which it is applied.

(I have no idea how long "BEVERAGE 2" runs the maggie; but, DO know that
it reheats a cold cup of tea to the temperature that I would find
acceptable -- without burning my mouth on the hot liquid!)


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 21:43:50 -0000 (UTC), Niocl?s P?l Caile?n de
Ghloucester <thanks-to@Taf.com> wrote:

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote: >|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"[. . .] |
|[. . .] You |
|get a thousand pages of search results but only the first handful are| >|actually related to your search." | >|---------------------------------------------------------------------|

(Google repeatedly changes how it works so the following might not
still apply. I performed this experiment before the Year 2019.) I used
Google for a search. Google boasted that it found thousands of
results, but after I went through hundreds thereof (i.e. a small
proportion of these boasted thousands), Google showed me a note that
it refuses to list most of these search hits. This note was
accompanied by the absence of the Next button arrow icon at the bottom
right.
(S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)

Google prioritizes the hits that they are paid to prioritize.


John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 01:34:05 +0100, Coile?n P?l Niocl?s de Ghlost?ir <thanks-to@Taf.com> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026, John Larkin wrote:
"Google prioritizes the hits that they are paid to prioritize."

True.

Their motto "Don't be evil" was canceled in 2018.


John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 17:50:55 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 15:32:14 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number >> >> of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER,
then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature,
etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons >> >> on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes' >> >markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them).
One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the >> >food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver >> >this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed >> >on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so
it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap >> >to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.

I remember those. When was it made?

I don't know for certain, I rescued it from a waste skip some time in
the early 1990s.

So, 1980s or so.

The belt drive to the turntable gearing had snapped
and replacements weren't available because it was illegal in the UK to
sell microwave oven spares that required the use of a tool to install
them (i.e. a screwdriver to remove the covers). The glass plate had
also broken when it was thrown in the skip but replacements for that
were still available.

Hmm. What was the given rationale for the no-tools law? Or
regulation?

It's a law to restrict repairs so that only people with a certificate
can repair them, thereby increasing the need for training courses. It
doesn't have a rationale but the excuse was that people who attempted
repair might electrocute themselves.

Of all domestic appliances, the microwave oven represented the greatest
danger, with a mains-derived power supply of several kilovolts which was capable of giving several hundred milliamps. If the discharge resistor
failed, the charge on the capacitor was lethal long after it had been
switched off.

The actual effect of the law was to decrease the number of people who
were killed trying to repair them from virtually zero to virtually zero
and greatly increase the number of microwave ovens that were scrapped unnecessarily.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 01:34:05 +0100, Coile?n P?l Niocl?s de Ghlost?ir <thanks-to@Taf.com> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026, John Larkin wrote:
"Google prioritizes the hits that they are paid to prioritize."

True.

Their motto "Don't be evil" was canceled in 2018.

I thought they changed it to "Don't be evil, that's our job".


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 11:57:28 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 17:50:55 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 15:32:14 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number
of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER, >> >> >> then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature,
etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons >> >> >> on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes' >> >> >markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them). >> >> >One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the >> >> >food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver >> >> >this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed >> >> >on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so >> >> >it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap >> >> >to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.

I remember those. When was it made?

I don't know for certain, I rescued it from a waste skip some time in
the early 1990s.

So, 1980s or so.

The belt drive to the turntable gearing had snapped
and replacements weren't available because it was illegal in the UK to
sell microwave oven spares that required the use of a tool to install
them (i.e. a screwdriver to remove the covers). The glass plate had
also broken when it was thrown in the skip but replacements for that
were still available.

Hmm. What was the given rationale for the no-tools law? Or
regulation?

It's a law to restrict repairs so that only people with a certificate
can repair them, thereby increasing the need for training courses. It >doesn't have a rationale but the excuse was that people who attempted
repair might electrocute themselves.

In the US there have been similar discussions, but the states with
significant rural industries always opposed such restrictions because
in rural areas, everybody had at least some machine tools to keep
production equipment in reasonable repair. Everybody had a welder or
two.

When farm equipment manufacturers like John Deere tried to monopolize
repair, and also provided woefully inadequate during harvest season,
the heartland revolted. The repair bills were extortionate, but being
unable to harvest and thus letting crops rot was insult added to
injury.

One result was the passage of "Right to Repair" laws in many states.

Of all domestic appliances, the microwave oven represented the greatest >danger, with a mains-derived power supply of several kilovolts which was >capable of giving several hundred milliamps. If the discharge resistor >failed, the charge on the capacitor was lethal long after it had been >switched off.

Yeah. And 440 Vac (common in Europe) in major appliances will also
ruin your whole day.

The actual effect of the law was to decrease the number of people who
were killed trying to repair them from virtually zero to virtually zero
and greatly increase the number of microwave ovens that were scrapped >unnecessarily.

The question I always ask is how <name of feared thing> compares with
traffic accidents.

/<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year>

A neon sign transformer will also wake you up and reduce you to jelly.
Don't ask how I know.

Joe

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 11:57:28 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid

(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 17:50:55 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 15:32:14 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number
of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER, >>> >> >> then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature,
etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons >>> >> >> on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes'
markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them). >>> >> >One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the >>> >> >food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver >>> >> >this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed
on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so >>> >> >it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap >>> >> >to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.

I remember those. When was it made?

I don't know for certain, I rescued it from a waste skip some time in
the early 1990s.

So, 1980s or so.

The belt drive to the turntable gearing had snapped
and replacements weren't available because it was illegal in the UK to
sell microwave oven spares that required the use of a tool to install
them (i.e. a screwdriver to remove the covers). The glass plate had
also broken when it was thrown in the skip but replacements for that
were still available.

Hmm. What was the given rationale for the no-tools law? Or
regulation?

It's a law to restrict repairs so that only people with a certificate
can repair them, thereby increasing the need for training courses. It >>doesn't have a rationale but the excuse was that people who attempted >>repair might electrocute themselves.

In the US there have been similar discussions, but the states with >significant rural industries always opposed such restrictions because
in rural areas, everybody had at least some machine tools to keep
production equipment in reasonable repair. Everybody had a welder or
two.

When farm equipment manufacturers like John Deere tried to monopolize
repair, and also provided woefully inadequate during harvest season,
the heartland revolted. The repair bills were extortionate, but being
unable to harvest and thus letting crops rot was insult added to
injury.

One result was the passage of "Right to Repair" laws in many states.

Of all domestic appliances, the microwave oven represented the greatest >>danger, with a mains-derived power supply of several kilovolts which was >>capable of giving several hundred milliamps. If the discharge resistor >>failed, the charge on the capacitor was lethal long after it had been >>switched off.

Yeah. And 440 Vac (common in Europe) in major appliances will also
ruin your whole day.

The actual effect of the law was to decrease the number of people who
were killed trying to repair them from virtually zero to virtually zero
and greatly increase the number of microwave ovens that were scrapped >>unnecessarily.

The question I always ask is how <name of feared thing> compares with
traffic accidents.

/<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year>

A neon sign transformer will also wake you up and reduce you to jelly.
Don't ask how I know.

Joe

Dangerous were the old tube color TV sets
the chassis was live, and the antenna from the cable company was ground
open it up, hold the chassis in one hand
and the antenna cable in the other hand to plug it in the set.
I did, learned some control over the years hanging from current
managed to move my arms together so the antenna hit the chassis and blew the mains fuse,
and was free.

240V AC back then, was in the UK.
In the repair shops one should use separation transformers,
but this was in somebody elses repair shop who did not have such a transformer, a clueless idiot, probably illegal.
Some surprize.
I told them: 'fix your own shit' and left.
So beware.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

It's a law to restrict repairs so that only people with a certificate
can repair them, thereby increasing the need for training courses. It doesn't have a rationale but the excuse was that people who attempted
repair might electrocute themselves.

The US constrains such services in certain industries, but usually
not paternalistically.

E.g., servicing refrigeration systems requires certification
primarily to ensure "proper" handling and disposal of the
refrigerants.

Liability laws serve to sort out the slipshod repairs of kit that
could pose a safety hazard to a subsequent purchaser/user.

Of all domestic appliances, the microwave oven represented the greatest danger, with a mains-derived power supply of several kilovolts which was capable of giving several hundred milliamps. If the discharge resistor failed, the charge on the capacitor was lethal long after it had been switched off.

The actual effect of the law was to decrease the number of people who
were killed trying to repair them from virtually zero to virtually zero
and greatly increase the number of microwave ovens that were scrapped unnecessarily.

Our "electric kettle" has a pair of upward-facing concentric rings *exposed*
in the base. These connected to the mains and acting as the interface to the removable kettle (with similarly styled mating rings in its underside). Nothing (beyond common sense) prevents the user from making contact with these.

Coupled with the fact that you are handling liquids that could easily spill
as the kettle is transported from its base to its intended dispensing location...

Toasters are notoriously vulnerable to folks trying to fish out a
bagel or other "thick" item with a fork or knife.

And, apparently, enough people stick things in electric outlets
to mandate a mechanical barrier included in the receptacle to seal
off the openings in the absence of a "real plug".

There are all sorts of ways people can hurt themselves out of ignorance or misuse. When I worked at a hand tool manufacturer, a guy had used a wood chisel to cut aluminum gutters (I imagine it would be highly effective,
though unsure how easily CONTROLLED). I guess the idea that a bit of
aluminum might find its way into his eye wasn't one of the things he
thought of before undertaking that activity!

The edges (rim) of hammers are tempered to soften the steel as a strike
that just catches the edge would "splinter" that portion of the hammer, otherwise.

Yet, we let ANYONE dispense volatile liquids into their motor vehicles....

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Thu, 29 Jan 2026 06:57:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 11:57:28 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid

(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 17:50:55 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 15:32:14 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>> >> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[..]

[Still beats the hell out of the oven that wants you to dial the number
of HOURS you want, hit ENTER, dial the number of MINUTES, hit ENTER, >>>> >> >> then select whether you want to turn the oven off, maintain temperature,
etc. Again, a dweeb who thought a big knob and an ENTER button
could solve ALL UI issues! (gotta wonder why there are other buttons
on the oven/stove given such a "universal" UI!)

My microwave oven has a dial marked with two different sets of 'minutes'
markings (in different colours and fonts to clearly distinguish them). >>>> >> >One is the time in minutes during which microwaves are delivered to the
food, the other is the time in miuntes it will take to actually deliver
this energy when a lever is set to 'Defrost' and the magnetron is pulsed
on and off. The timer motor is connected to the magnetron circuit, so >>>> >> >it runs only when energy is actually being delivered.

It is simple to understand, simple to use, reliable and extremely cheap
to make. It also has real bell that goes 'ping!'.

I remember those. When was it made?

I don't know for certain, I rescued it from a waste skip some time in >>>> >the early 1990s.

So, 1980s or so.

The belt drive to the turntable gearing had snapped
and replacements weren't available because it was illegal in the UK to >>>> >sell microwave oven spares that required the use of a tool to install >>>> >them (i.e. a screwdriver to remove the covers). The glass plate had
also broken when it was thrown in the skip but replacements for that
were still available.

Hmm. What was the given rationale for the no-tools law? Or
regulation?

It's a law to restrict repairs so that only people with a certificate
can repair them, thereby increasing the need for training courses. It >>>doesn't have a rationale but the excuse was that people who attempted >>>repair might electrocute themselves.

In the US there have been similar discussions, but the states with >>significant rural industries always opposed such restrictions because
in rural areas, everybody had at least some machine tools to keep >>production equipment in reasonable repair. Everybody had a welder or
two.

When farm equipment manufacturers like John Deere tried to monopolize >>repair, and also provided woefully inadequate during harvest season,
the heartland revolted. The repair bills were extortionate, but being >>unable to harvest and thus letting crops rot was insult added to
injury.

One result was the passage of "Right to Repair" laws in many states.

Of all domestic appliances, the microwave oven represented the greatest >>>danger, with a mains-derived power supply of several kilovolts which was >>>capable of giving several hundred milliamps. If the discharge resistor >>>failed, the charge on the capacitor was lethal long after it had been >>>switched off.

Yeah. And 440 Vac (common in Europe) in major appliances will also
ruin your whole day.

The actual effect of the law was to decrease the number of people who >>>were killed trying to repair them from virtually zero to virtually zero >>>and greatly increase the number of microwave ovens that were scrapped >>>unnecessarily.

The question I always ask is how <name of feared thing> compares with >>traffic accidents.

/<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year> >>

A neon sign transformer will also wake you up and reduce you to jelly. >>Don't ask how I know.

Joe

Dangerous were the old tube color TV sets
the chassis was live, and the antenna from the cable company was ground
open it up, hold the chassis in one hand
and the antenna cable in the other hand to plug it in the set.
I did, learned some control over the years hanging from current
managed to move my arms together so the antenna hit the chassis and blew the mains fuse,
and was free.

240V AC back then, was in the UK.

Yeah. What saved me was the habit of always first touching things in
a sweeping motion so momentum will break the circuit, even if I've
lost control.

In the repair shops one should use separation [isolation] transformers,
but this was in somebody elses repair shop who did not have such a transformer,
a clueless idiot, probably illegal.
Some surprize.
I told them: 'fix your own shit' and left.
So beware.

I've seen shops like that, and would not work there as well.

Back when I lived in Baltimore (Maryland) in the 1970s, I was very
interested in very-high-power electronics, on the scale one might meet
in a steel mill like the Bethlehem Steel Mill and Shipyard at Sparrows
Point in Baltimore harbor.

I became one of the few local EEs who knew anything about Mercury-Pool Ignitrons <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignitron>, which are usually
operated at many tens of kilovolts.

Anyway, word soon got around, and I was offered a job fixing Ignitron
circuitry making very good money. Which I politely declined.

Why? I was spoiled by working the circuits at 50 volts and below, and
had become quite sloppy. And the call would come at 3 AM when the
failure was costing millions of dollars per hour. So I judged this
job as likely to be fatal.

Joe

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)