• Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fe

    From BTR1701@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 03, 2026 20:02:58
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously >>>>> aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with
    murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of >>>>> women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances.

    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached.


    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have happened in Roe v. >>>> Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying abortion was >>>> fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico >>>> decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time for both >>> the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in
    gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just
    made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in
    technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human
    life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child
    does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception
    and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept.

    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being
    practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10 years in prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a bald eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species
    Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its
    eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for
    religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a
    human.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Adam H. Kerman@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 03, 2026 21:03:19
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously >>>>>> aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with >>>>>> murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of >>>>>> women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances.

    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached. >>>>>>

    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying abortion was >>>>> fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico >>>>> decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time for both >>>> the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in
    gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just >>>> made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in
    technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human >>>> life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child >>>> does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception >>>> and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept.

    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being
    practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10 years in >prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a bald >eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species >Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its >eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for >religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a >human.

    How has that worked out? Courts have been tied up ever since with the repurcussions of probate law as it applies to eagles. Let's learn a
    lesson from that fiasco abd not go there for human life.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BTR1701@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 03, 2026 21:21:43
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Mar 3, 2026 at 1:03:19 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> >>>> wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously >>>>>>> aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with >>>>>>> murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of >>>>>>> women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances.

    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached. >>>>>>>

    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying abortion was
    fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico >>>>>> decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time for both >>>>> the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in
    gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just >>>>> made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in
    technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human >>>>> life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child >>>>> does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception >>>>> and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept.

    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being
    practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10 years in >> prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a bald >> eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species
    Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its
    eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for
    religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a
    human.

    How has that worked out? Courts have been tied up ever since with the repurcussions of probate law as it applies to eagles. Let's learn a
    lesson from that fiasco abd not go there for human life.

    Heh.

    I think the problem with eagles is the inheritance taxes. The chicks have to sell the family nest to pay the Man.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From moviePig@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 03, 2026 16:26:58
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On 3/3/2026 3:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously >>>>>> aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with >>>>>> murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of >>>>>> women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances.

    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached. >>>>>>

    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying abortion was >>>>> fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico >>>>> decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time for both >>>> the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in
    gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just >>>> made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in
    technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human >>>> life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child >>>> does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception >>>> and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept.

    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being
    practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10 years in prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a bald eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a human.

    Yes, ornithology doesn't invoke theology.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BTR1701@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 03, 2026 21:35:58
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Mar 3, 2026 at 1:26:58 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 3:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> >>>> wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously >>>>>>> aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with >>>>>>> murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of >>>>>>> women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances.

    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached. >>>>>>>


    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying abortion was
    fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico >>>>>> decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time for both
    the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in
    gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just >>>>> made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in
    technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human >>>>> life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child >>>>> does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception >>>>> and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept.

    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being
    practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10 years in >> prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a bald
    eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species
    Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its
    eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for
    religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a
    human.

    Yes, ornithology doesn't invoke theology.

    Nor does anthropology.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From moviePig@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 03, 2026 18:27:04
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On 3/3/2026 4:35 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 1:26:58 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 3:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> >>> wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> >>>>> wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously
    aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with >>>>>>>> murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of
    women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances.

    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached. >>>>>>>>


    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying abortion was
    fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico
    decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time for both
    the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in >>>>>> gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just
    made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in >>>>>> technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human
    life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child
    does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception
    and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept.

    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being
    practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when >>>> the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10 years in
    prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a bald
    eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species
    Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its >>> eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for
    religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a >>> human.

    Yes, ornithology doesn't invoke theology.

    Nor does anthropology.

    No, just armchair anthropologists who seek to "define a human".



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BTR1701@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 03, 2026 23:32:54
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:27:04 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 4:35 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 1:26:58 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 3:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com> >>>> wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously
    aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with
    murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of
    women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances.

    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached.




    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying abortion was
    fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico
    decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time for both
    the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in >>>>>>> gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just
    made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in >>>>>>> technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human
    life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child
    does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception
    and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept.

    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being >>>>> practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when >>>>> the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10
    years in
    prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a >>>> bald
    eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species >>>> Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its
    eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for >>>> religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a >>>> human.

    Yes, ornithology doesn't invoke theology.

    Nor does anthropology.

    No, just armchair anthropologists who seek to "define a human".

    And yet it didn't take armchair ornithologists (or even professional ones) to define an eagle.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From moviePig@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 03, 2026 18:58:47
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On 3/3/2026 6:32 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:27:04 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 4:35 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 1:26:58 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>
    On 3/3/2026 3:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously
    aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with
    murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of
    women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances.

    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached.




    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying abortion was
    fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico
    decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time for both
    the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in >>>>>>>> gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just
    made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in >>>>>>>> technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human
    life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child
    does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception
    and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept. >>>>>>
    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being >>>>>> practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10 >>>>> years in
    prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a
    bald
    eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species >>>>> Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its
    eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for >>>>> religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a
    human.

    Yes, ornithology doesn't invoke theology.

    Nor does anthropology.

    No, just armchair anthropologists who seek to "define a human".

    And yet it didn't take armchair ornithologists (or even professional ones) to define an eagle.

    Sure, because eagles can't talk back.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BTR1701@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 04, 2026 01:28:29
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:58:47 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 6:32 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:27:04 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 4:35 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 1:26:58 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 3:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously
    aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with
    murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of
    women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances.

    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached.





    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have >>>>>>>>>> happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying >>>>>>>>>> abortion was
    fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico
    decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time >>>>>>>>> for both
    the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in
    gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just
    made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in
    technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human
    life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child
    does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception
    and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept. >>>>>>>
    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being >>>>>>> practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10 >>>>>> years in
    prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a
    bald
    eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species
    Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its
    eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for
    religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a
    human.

    Yes, ornithology doesn't invoke theology.

    Nor does anthropology.

    No, just armchair anthropologists who seek to "define a human".

    And yet it didn't take armchair ornithologists (or even professional ones) >> to
    define an eagle.

    Sure, because eagles can't talk back.

    Whether an organism can talk back or not seems irrelevant to whether a definition of its existence requires religious basis.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The Horny Goat@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 04, 2026 03:17:16
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 03:01:31 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    I know you are speaking to BTR but I think you've raised some very >>concerning issues. Are we really heading toward a point where the nanny >>state has full supervision of every pregnancy and can punish the woman >>(and anyone supporting her like a husband, other family, and close >>friends) if she doesn't do everything possible to have an optimum >>pregnancy? I'd find that very intrusive.

    That is absolutely part of my concern with such a law in the criminal
    code.

    My late wife was an extreme 'preemie' - i.e. born at a period in her
    mother's pregnancy where under Canadian law today she could be legally
    aborted. An early illness was what cost her 75% of her hearing.

    (Which given my mother in law then and now was a very serious Catholic
    wouldn't have happened. One thing I never got the guts to ask my
    in-laws was how in their daughter's infancy when she was born
    prematurely and within her first month of life lost 70% of her birth
    weight didn't seek the priest to 'do the rites' - by the late 50s when
    she was born they didn't call it 'last rites' - and several people I
    know have had them multiple times and recovered)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The Horny Goat@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 04, 2026 03:23:35
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 15:57:26 -0500, Rhino
    <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

    I remember reading about a woman in the Soviet Union who went into a
    coma in 1952. I don't know if she needed any specific machinery to keep
    her alive like a vent or only needed to be fed but she stayed in that
    coma until 1986, then regained consciousness. I don't know what became
    of her after her 34 year coma but I've always wondered what she thought
    of how the times had changed during her "absence". After all, Stalin was >still in charge and was still having enemies done away with when she
    lost consciousness and she regained consciousness during Gorbachev's
    massive reforms. The contrast must have been truly mind-boggling.

    My wife's uncle was an air force lt. colonel based in a relatively
    isolated Quebec location (i.e. where the only English spoken in that
    area was on the base) when his wife had an aneurism that put her into
    a 20+ year coma. He eventually retired from the air force and became a
    senior officer in the Saskatchewan prison system - he was one of the
    few I didn't object to collecting both his military pension while
    continuing to work since I knew he was facing bankruptcy over the cost
    of her care. (Unlike another uncle in the family who was a high school principal before he became a federal member of parliament and
    eventually collected both pensions - after all, I have a lot more
    sympathy for those who risked their lives in the service of their
    country which most principals or politicians seldom do)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The Horny Goat@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 04, 2026 03:27:05
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 15:57:26 -0500, Rhino
    <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

    Women are the ones that carry the babies and usually do the lion's share
    of the child care. (I'm sad to say that one of my friend's proudly
    declared that he'd never changed his daughter's diaper even once when
    she was young.) In my opinion, it's ultimately up to them to either use >birth control themselves or insist that their (male) lovers do.

    My wife used to complain I seldom changed diapers though in all
    honesty I changed more than half of them during the portion of the day
    was home (e.g. as opposed to at work).

    Never actually collected stats but that was 30+ years ago.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The Horny Goat@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 04, 2026 03:30:56
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 21:35:34 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    Or maybe I do. I'm just remembering the case of a little boy that
    suffered from hydrocephaly ("water on the brain"). The situation was >>discovered when he was still in the womb and there was so much water in >>his brain that his brain was compressed into only 3% of the space
    normally occupied by a brain. Doctors said he'd be a complete vegetable >>when he was born and there was only one slim shot for him if they did an >>in utero procedure that drained much of the water. The parents agreed to >>the procedure and the boy turned out to be very close to normal even >>though they hadn't succeeded in improving the volume of the brain very >>much. Apparently, the doctors/scientists were astounded at the level of >>"neuro-plasticity" (ability of the brain to rewire itself) this boy showed.

    With this law, the mother would not be allowed to abort and required to >undergo such a procedure, the intended consequence of making foetal life >"human" and tnerefore superior to the mother's.

    Why would the state get to decide who gets to survive in one of those heartbreaking cases where only one of those could?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The Horny Goat@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 04, 2026 03:32:59
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 21:35:34 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    I believe sperm donors have been sued but I don't know if there have
    been support awards or inheritance rights. We do know that such fathers
    have been tracked down by their spawn wanting to know where they came
    from, which sounds like a horrid invasion of privacy.

    I know of several such cases involving anonymous sperm donors where
    medical reports were supplied concerning hereditary diseases etc
    without revealing identity which I think is a reasonable compromise.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From moviePig@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 04, 2026 11:26:29
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On 3/3/2026 8:28 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:58:47 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 6:32 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:27:04 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>
    On 3/3/2026 4:35 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 1:26:58 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 3:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:

    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously
    aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with
    murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of
    women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances. >>>>>>>>>>
    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached.





    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have >>>>>>>>>>> happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying >>>>>>>>>>> abortion was
    fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the Puerto Rico
    decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time
    for both
    the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in
    gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, which he just
    made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in
    technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal concept that human
    life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be born child
    does not inherit from the father if the father died between conception
    and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept. >>>>>>>>
    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion.

    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being
    practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10
    years in
    prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or destroying a
    bald
    eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species
    Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, including its
    eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for
    religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human is not a
    human.

    Yes, ornithology doesn't invoke theology.

    Nor does anthropology.

    No, just armchair anthropologists who seek to "define a human".

    And yet it didn't take armchair ornithologists (or even professional ones)
    to
    define an eagle.

    Sure, because eagles can't talk back.

    Whether an organism can talk back or not seems irrelevant to whether a definition of its existence requires religious basis.

    Eagles don't offer resistance when humans define them. Humans do.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BTR1701@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 04, 2026 19:10:29
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On Mar 4, 2026 at 8:26:29 AM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 8:28 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:58:47 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 6:32 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:27:04 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 4:35 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 1:26:58 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 3:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>
    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously
    aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with
    murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of
    women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances. >>>>>>>>>>>
    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached.






    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have >>>>>>>>>>>> happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying
    abortion was
    fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the >>>>>>>>>>>> Puerto Rico
    decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time
    for both
    the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in
    gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, >>>>>>>>>>> which he just
    made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in
    technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal >>>>>>>>>>> concept that human
    life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be >>>>>>>>>>> born child
    does not inherit from the father if the father died >>>>>>>>>>> between conception
    and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept.

    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion. >>>>>>>>>
    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being
    practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10
    years in
    prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or >>>>>>>> destroying a
    bald
    eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species
    Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, >>>>>>>> including its
    eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for
    religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human >>>>>>>> is not a
    human.

    Yes, ornithology doesn't invoke theology.

    Nor does anthropology.

    No, just armchair anthropologists who seek to "define a human".

    And yet it didn't take armchair ornithologists (or even professional ones)
    to
    define an eagle.

    Sure, because eagles can't talk back.

    Whether an organism can talk back or not seems irrelevant to whether a
    definition of its existence requires religious basis.

    Eagles don't offer resistance when humans define them. Humans do.

    And that means defining life at beginning at conception requires belief in
    god?

    Walk me through that cataclysmic leap in logic step-by-step.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From moviePig@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 04, 2026 14:58:29
    Subject: Re: Puerto Rico criminal code now defines human life as beginning at fertilization

    On 3/4/2026 2:10 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 4, 2026 at 8:26:29 AM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 8:28 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:58:47 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>
    On 3/3/2026 6:32 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 3:27:04 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 4:35 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Mar 3, 2026 at 1:26:58 PM PST, "moviePig" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 3/3/2026 3:02 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 7:29:18 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
    On Feb 14, 2026 at 6:01:40 PM PST, ""Adam H. Kerman"" <ahk@chinet.com>
    wrote:

    Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2026-02-14 4:30 p.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>
    A lawyer commenting repeated my line that a woman who spontaneously
    aborts in the first month or two of pregnancy can be charged with
    murder. This has massive implications for the clinical treatment of
    women in ordinary and extraordinary circumstances. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    The wall of separation between church and state has been breached.






    https://apnews.com/article/puerto-rico-923-governor-signed-law-pregnancies-9d2f1fb895a17511a920cc42d480668e

    I think you could make a case for that breach to have >>>>>>>>>>>>> happened in Roe v.
    Wade. The Supremes essentially drew a dividing line saying
    abortion was
    fine at such-and-such a point in the gestation cycle; the
    Puerto Rico
    decision just moved the line.

    I'm not seeing your point. Blackman was criticized at the time
    for both
    the arbitrary time ranges, which were not based on landmarks in
    gestation, and his notion of when viability might occur, >>>>>>>>>>>> which he just
    made up. Viability was a moving target anyway, given advances in
    technology.

    Where's the religion?

    The arguments didn't change the centuries-old legal >>>>>>>>>>>> concept that human
    life begins with a live birth. In probate law, a yet to be
    born child
    does not inherit from the father if the father died >>>>>>>>>>>> between conception
    and birth.

    That human life begins at conception is a religious concept.

    It can be but it doesn't have to be based on religion. >>>>>>>>>>
    Where else can it come from? Human life with live birth was being
    practical. Common law was not implementing religious belief about when
    the soul enters.

    I just saw that under the United States Code, you can get up to 10
    years in
    prison and/or a $100,000 fine for disturbing, injuring, or >>>>>>>>> destroying a
    bald
    eagle. The code also defines "bald eagle" as a member of the species
    Haliaeetus leucocephalus, at any stage of its development, >>>>>>>>> including its
    eggs.

    So the law defines a pre-born eagle as an eagle (without the need for
    religious justification). But for some reason a pre-born human
    is not a
    human.

    Yes, ornithology doesn't invoke theology.

    Nor does anthropology.

    No, just armchair anthropologists who seek to "define a human". >>>>>
    And yet it didn't take armchair ornithologists (or even professional ones)
    to
    define an eagle.

    Sure, because eagles can't talk back.

    Whether an organism can talk back or not seems irrelevant to whether a >>> definition of its existence requires religious basis.

    Eagles don't offer resistance when humans define them. Humans do.

    And that means defining life at beginning at conception requires belief in god?

    Walk me through that cataclysmic leap in logic step-by-step.

    There's nothing wrong with that or any other definition of life, so long
    as it's understood to be arbitrary and less-then-unanimous (...and very probably uttered with a conviction bordering on the sacred).



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.12
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)