• This Census Taker. China Mielville.

    From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, September 22, 2026 12:27:26
    This Census Taker. China Mielville.

    Many years ago, I loved his steampunk "New Crobuzon" series and the standalones, "Embassytown" and "The City and the City" which were also brilliantly imaginative earning solid Four Stars but "This Census Taker"
    was One Star rubbish.
    A youth, whose father makes magical keys for a living and kills things including people, escapes to the village where he claims his father has
    killed his mother but is not believed so is returned home. Slow, dry and boring. I didn't appreciate what I was reading so sought on line reviews
    once finished. I missed some riddle aspects in which I lost interest but
    the consensus of views once the empty flowery praise was ignored was
    that the book was a study of a traumatised unreliable narrator. And that
    is neither interesting not entertaining.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bice@3:633/10 to All on Monday, September 28, 2026 11:51:14
    On Tue, 22 Sep 2026 12:27:26 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

    This Census Taker. China Mielville.

    Many years ago, I loved his steampunk "New Crobuzon" series and the >standalones, "Embassytown" and "The City and the City" which were also >brilliantly imaginative earning solid Four Stars but "This Census Taker"
    was One Star rubbish.

    the consensus of views once the empty flowery praise was ignored was
    that the book was a study of a traumatised unreliable narrator. And that
    is neither interesting not entertaining.


    As an opposing viewpoint, I'll mention that I found the book at a
    library sale several years ago and really enjoyed it. It's a fairly
    confusing post-apocalyptic story that jumps around in time and switchs
    from first person to third and back. It may or may not have a reliable
    narrator and it leaves a lot unexplained. But I blew through it in
    three days, and I'm not the fastest reader. It's more novella length
    than novel.

    After my second reading, when I thought I had finally worked out what
    was really going on in the story, I read a review from someone who had
    a completely different take on the tale's backstory and a different
    explanation for the events in the book, and his version made more
    sense than what I had come up with.

    If you're looking for a story that spoon feeds the reader and wraps up
    all the loose ends, this isn't that book. But it was interesting and definitely got my imagination fired up.

    -- Bob

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, September 29, 2026 08:48:49
    Bice <eichler2@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Sep 2026 12:27:26 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
    the consensus of views once the empty flowery praise was ignored was
    that the book was a study of a traumatised unreliable narrator. And that
    is neither interesting not entertaining.

    As an opposing viewpoint, I'll mention that I found the book at a
    library sale several years ago and really enjoyed it. It's a fairly >confusing post-apocalyptic story that jumps around in time and switchs
    from first person to third and back. It may or may not have a reliable >narrator and it leaves a lot unexplained. But I blew through it in
    three days, and I'm not the fastest reader. It's more novella length
    than novel.

    I liked it, but I like flowery prose. It did take me a second reading
    before I figured out a lot of what is going on, and to my mind that is a
    good thing.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, September 29, 2026 14:31:01
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    Bice <eichler2@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Sep 2026 12:27:26 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
    the consensus of views once the empty flowery praise was ignored was
    that the book was a study of a traumatised unreliable narrator. And that >>>is neither interesting not entertaining.

    As an opposing viewpoint, I'll mention that I found the book at a
    library sale several years ago and really enjoyed it. It's a fairly >>confusing post-apocalyptic story that jumps around in time and switchs
    from first person to third and back. It may or may not have a reliable >>narrator and it leaves a lot unexplained. But I blew through it in
    three days, and I'm not the fastest reader. It's more novella length
    than novel.

    I liked it, but I like flowery prose. It did take me a second reading
    before I figured out a lot of what is going on, and to my mind that is a >good thing.

    Ah, then you'll have no difficulties with Cervantes :-)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, September 30, 2026 15:16:08
    On 30/09/2026 01:48, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Bice <eichler2@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Sep 2026 12:27:26 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
    the consensus of views once the empty flowery praise was ignored was
    that the book was a study of a traumatised unreliable narrator. And that >>> is neither interesting not entertaining.

    As an opposing viewpoint, I'll mention that I found the book at a
    library sale several years ago and really enjoyed it. It's a fairly
    confusing post-apocalyptic story that jumps around in time and switchs >>from first person to third and back. It may or may not have a reliable
    narrator and it leaves a lot unexplained. But I blew through it in
    three days, and I'm not the fastest reader. It's more novella length
    than novel.

    I liked it, but I like flowery prose.

    The flowery prose I criticised was in the empty reviews not the book.

    It did take me a second reading
    before I figured out a lot of what is going on, and to my mind that is a good thing.
    --scott

    I don't plan to reread it but I would like to hear your opinion of what
    was going on, thank you.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, September 30, 2026 15:28:06
    On 29/09/2026 04:51, Bice wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Sep 2026 12:27:26 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

    This Census Taker. China Mielville.

    Many years ago, I loved his steampunk "New Crobuzon" series and the
    standalones, "Embassytown" and "The City and the City" which were also
    brilliantly imaginative earning solid Four Stars but "This Census Taker"
    was One Star rubbish.

    A youth, whose father makes magical keys for a living and kills things including people, escapes to the village where he claims his father has
    killed his mother but is not believed so is returned home. Slow, dry and boring. I didn't appreciate what I was reading so sought on line reviews
    once finished. I missed some riddle aspects in which I lost interest but
    the consensus of views once the empty flowery praise was ignored was
    that the book was a study of a traumatised unreliable narrator. And that
    is neither interesting not entertaining.


    As an opposing viewpoint, I'll mention that I found the book at a
    library sale several years ago and really enjoyed it. It's a fairly confusing post-apocalyptic story that jumps around in time and switchs
    from first person to third and back. It may or may not have a reliable narrator and it leaves a lot unexplained. But I blew through it in
    three days, and I'm not the fastest reader. It's more novella length
    than novel.

    The narrator is definitely unreliable. It is clearly stated that the
    second book of the three census takers' books, (the one we are reading),
    was incomplete and dishonest and that truths were disclosed in the third
    book which no one would read except the census taker himself.
    After my second reading, when I thought I had finally worked out what
    was really going on in the story, I read a review from someone who had
    a completely different take on the tale's backstory and a different explanation for the events in the book, and his version made more
    sense than what I had come up with.

    I would be interested to hear those two differing theories. One of my
    gripes is that the lack of events fitting a plot and the lack of
    characters made everything so vague. You support that gripe with your
    report of different interpretations.
    Perhaps his murdered mother was the other census taker's assistant and
    the census taker put the father in the hole as revenge?
    At the very end of the book, he leaves with one of the children, (now an adult), from the house on the bridge suggesting that the narrator was a resident there instead of living with his father?
    The census taker is counting or accounting for people only from his own
    polity. People capable of magic who were responsible for the troubles
    resulting in the post apocalyptic primitive society?

    If you're looking for a story that spoon feeds the reader and wraps up
    all the loose ends, this isn't that book. But it was interesting and definitely got my imagination fired up.

    -- Bob

    Whilst I enjoy being spoon fed, I also enjoy ambiguous conclusions where
    the reader can consider the choices not knowing which might be correct
    but in this book, everything was too vague.
    The primitive setting was vague but not relevant to the story apart from
    the lack of communal authority.
    There was only one non-plastic character, the traumatised unreliable
    narrator.
    If there is a plot, it is carefully hidden. I think you were lucky to
    have your imagination fired up as it fell flat for me. Rather than using
    his brilliant powers of imagination to explain impossibilities, (The
    City and The City), Mielville's imagination has undertaken a writing
    exercise.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bice@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, October 04, 2026 17:47:38
    On Wed, 30 Sep 2026 15:28:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 29/09/2026 04:51, Bice wrote:

    After my second reading, when I thought I had finally worked out what
    was really going on in the story, I read a review from someone who had
    a completely different take on the tale's backstory and a different
    explanation for the events in the book, and his version made more
    sense than what I had come up with.

    I would be interested to hear those two differing theories.

    The census taker is counting or accounting for people only from his own >polity. People capable of magic who were responsible for the troubles >resulting in the post apocalyptic primitive society?

    That was an element of the theory from that review that I read.

    It's been over six years since I read the book (in April of 2020), so
    a lot of the plot details have since escaped me, but here's what I
    wrote up in my book log after reading it:

    WARNING, SPOILERS!!!
    WARNING, SPOILERS!!!
    WARNING, SPOILERS!!!


    The story is strange and strangely told. It starts with a young boy
    who lives on a mountaintop with his parents running into the village
    at the foot of the mountain and screaming this his mother has killed
    his father. But then he immediately changes the story and says his
    father killed his mother. The town's law-enforcement representatives
    climb the hill with him to investigate, but can find no evidence of
    foul play. When the father produces a letter that he claims his wife
    wrote, and which states that she's running away because she can't take
    life on the mountaintop any more, the police are satisfied and leave
    the boy to live with his father.

    Now, that's just the tip of the iceberg (or mountain, as the case may
    be). The setting seems to be some sort of post-apocalyptic world. The
    story is narrated by the boy, but jumps between first person and third
    person, and eventually even second person, as if he's telling the tale
    to himself. The book initially backtracks to when the mother was
    alive so we can learn more about the boy's family and their home.
    There are flash-forward chapters to the boy as an adult, but those
    parts make little to no sense until you've read the rest of the book.
    The boy's father is a locksmith, but the keys he makes seem to have
    magical properties, such as the ability to control the weather or bind
    people from leaving places.

    The boy witnesses his father killing animals, and possibly people, and
    throwing them into a pit in a cave near their house. No one believes
    this except for the homeless children of the village, who try to
    figure out a way to get the boy away from his father so that he can
    live with them.

    Much of the story relates vague things that the boy heard or saw and
    leaves it up to the reader to try to piece together the meaning behind
    them. Possibly the vaguest part is a story about a team that came
    from the father's original home city to take a census, looking for
    anyone who was born in that city and their children. Elements of this
    keep cropping up, including a young girl who is helping with the
    census but who tries to steal her boss' records, believing that he is
    a criminal.

    Things come to a head near the end of the book when a census-taker
    comes to the boy's house. He intentionally came while the father was
    in town, so he could talk to the boy alone and investigate the story
    of the mother's murder. But this particular census-taker is the one
    whose young assistant tried to steal his records and convict him of a
    crime. That assistant has mysteriously disappeared.

    The ending of the book (including the flash-forward chapters) are...inconclusive at best. The boy runs off with the census-taker
    (after the census-taker, presumably, proved the murder), and works for
    him as an adult. But he's confined to some sort of room with guards
    outside the door, and he's working on three books - one with census
    data, one with his secrets written in code and one that he "inherited"
    from the census-taker's previous assistant and is trying to finish for
    her.

    Did the boy just imagine the census-taker and kill his father himself?
    Is that why he's in jail? Is he just imagining working on the census?
    We know he liked to draw people and animals on the walls of his attic
    and count them.

    Or was the census-taker eventually found guilty of taking the law into
    his own hands, as the girl had tried to prove, and killing the boy's
    father? Did the boy get put in jail too as an accomplice?

    One of the theories that I read on Goodreads made a lot of sense than
    my theories. The father who makes the magical keys seems to have some
    sort of otherworldly power. The census-taker(s) are only interested
    in people who came from the father's home city, and their children.
    Could it be that some (or all) of the people from that city had
    supernatural powers, and were somehow responsible for the apocalypse
    that knocked the world back into the stone ages? And that's why
    they've fled and spread out across the world? That's why the
    "census-takers" are out hunting for them? Maybe their powers drive
    some of them mad, causing them to commit murders, which is why the
    father frequently killed animals and eventually his wife. In an that
    case, the particular census-taker in this story was told to find and
    kill a dangerous "mutant". And maybe he was also told to keep an eye
    on any children, in case similar powers and dangerous drives arise in them...which is why the boy is under guard at the end? The only
    argument I can think of against this reading of the story is that,
    after killing the father, the census-taker was originally going to
    leave the boy living alone in his house. It was only after he
    realized that the boy couldn't take care of himself that he took him
    along. And why would he make a potentially dangerous mutant his
    assistant? Kind of a shame that those pieces don't fit, because the
    rest of it explains the story fairly well.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Monday, October 05, 2026 13:34:12
    On 05/10/2026 10:47, Bice wrote:
    On Wed, 30 Sep 2026 15:28:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On 29/09/2026 04:51, Bice wrote:

    After my second reading, when I thought I had finally worked out what
    was really going on in the story, I read a review from someone who had
    a completely different take on the tale's backstory and a different
    explanation for the events in the book, and his version made more
    sense than what I had come up with.

    I would be interested to hear those two differing theories.

    The census taker is counting or accounting for people only from his own
    polity. People capable of magic who were responsible for the troubles
    resulting in the post apocalyptic primitive society?

    That was an element of the theory from that review that I read.

    It's been over six years since I read the book (in April of 2020), so
    a lot of the plot details have since escaped me, but here's what I
    wrote up in my book log after reading it:

    WARNING, SPOILERS!!!
    WARNING, SPOILERS!!!
    WARNING, SPOILERS!!!


    The story is strange and strangely told. It starts with a young boy
    who lives on a mountaintop with his parents running into the village
    at the foot of the mountain and screaming this his mother has killed
    his father. But then he immediately changes the story and says his
    father killed his mother. The town's law-enforcement representatives
    climb the hill with him to investigate, but can find no evidence of
    foul play. When the father produces a letter that he claims his wife
    wrote, and which states that she's running away because she can't take
    life on the mountaintop any more, the police are satisfied and leave
    the boy to live with his father.

    Now, that's just the tip of the iceberg (or mountain, as the case may
    be). The setting seems to be some sort of post-apocalyptic world. The
    story is narrated by the boy, but jumps between first person and third person, and eventually even second person, as if he's telling the tale
    to himself. The book initially backtracks to when the mother was
    alive so we can learn more about the boy's family and their home.
    There are flash-forward chapters to the boy as an adult, but those
    parts make little to no sense until you've read the rest of the book.
    The boy's father is a locksmith, but the keys he makes seem to have
    magical properties, such as the ability to control the weather or bind
    people from leaving places.

    The boy witnesses his father killing animals, and possibly people, and throwing them into a pit in a cave near their house. No one believes
    this except for the homeless children of the village, who try to
    figure out a way to get the boy away from his father so that he can
    live with them.

    Much of the story relates vague things that the boy heard or saw and
    leaves it up to the reader to try to piece together the meaning behind
    them. Possibly the vaguest part is a story about a team that came
    from the father's original home city to take a census, looking for
    anyone who was born in that city and their children. Elements of this
    keep cropping up, including a young girl who is helping with the
    census but who tries to steal her boss' records, believing that he is
    a criminal.

    Things come to a head near the end of the book when a census-taker
    comes to the boy's house. He intentionally came while the father was
    in town, so he could talk to the boy alone and investigate the story
    of the mother's murder. But this particular census-taker is the one
    whose young assistant tried to steal his records and convict him of a
    crime. That assistant has mysteriously disappeared.

    Great. I missed that.

    The ending of the book (including the flash-forward chapters) are...inconclusive at best. The boy runs off with the census-taker
    (after the census-taker, presumably, proved the murder), and works for
    him as an adult. But he's confined to some sort of room with guards
    outside the door, and he's working on three books - one with census
    data, one with his secrets written in code and one that he "inherited"
    from the census-taker's previous assistant and is trying to finish for
    her.

    Did the boy just imagine the census-taker and kill his father himself?
    Is that why he's in jail? Is he just imagining working on the census?
    We know he liked to draw people and animals on the walls of his attic
    and count them.

    Or was the census-taker eventually found guilty of taking the law into
    his own hands, as the girl had tried to prove, and killing the boy's
    father? Did the boy get put in jail too as an accomplice?

    One of the theories that I read on Goodreads made a lot of sense than
    my theories. The father who makes the magical keys seems to have some
    sort of otherworldly power. The census-taker(s) are only interested
    in people who came from the father's home city, and their children.
    Could it be that some (or all) of the people from that city had
    supernatural powers, and were somehow responsible for the apocalypse
    that knocked the world back into the stone ages? And that's why
    they've fled and spread out across the world? That's why the
    "census-takers" are out hunting for them? Maybe their powers drive
    some of them mad, causing them to commit murders, which is why the
    father frequently killed animals and eventually his wife. In an that
    case, the particular census-taker in this story was told to find and
    kill a dangerous "mutant". And maybe he was also told to keep an eye
    on any children, in case similar powers and dangerous drives arise in them...which is why the boy is under guard at the end? The only
    argument I can think of against this reading of the story is that,
    after killing the father, the census-taker was originally going to
    leave the boy living alone in his house. It was only after he
    realized that the boy couldn't take care of himself that he took him
    along. And why would he make a potentially dangerous mutant his
    assistant? Kind of a shame that those pieces don't fit, because the
    rest of it explains the story fairly well.

    What a fascinating post, thank you.
    Perhaps I should have read it again but I didn't enjoy his prose enough
    and was frustrated by the vagueness.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)