• Re: Delay slot in PowerISA?

    From Bastian Blank@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 14, 2026 08:50:01
    [ Cc d-project, as this was missuse of resources ]

    On Tue, Jan 13, 2026 at 02:56:48PM -0800, Felix Lechner wrote:
    When I searched for "powerpc64 delay slot" today, the SearchAssist
    bubble on DuckDuckGo called delay slots are a "feature" on PowerPC. The
    full text is at the bottom of this message.

    What the heck is "SearchAssist"? Oh, this is AI-slop!

    Personally, I remain uncertain because sample code in a presentation
    from 2014 has 'nop' instructions after the 'bl' instructions. [3] Does
    the PowerPC architecture have delay slots, please?

    No, PowerPC does not have any branch delay slots.

    Please copy me on your reply. I do not subscribe to this list. Thanks!

    Why the heck do you consider it a good use of our time to chase ghosts?

    Regards,
    Bastian

    --
    "Beauty is transitory."
    "Beauty survives."
    -- Spock and Kirk, "That Which Survives", stardate unknown

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  • From Antonio Terceiro@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 14, 2026 12:00:01
    On Wed, Jan 14, 2026 at 08:30:12AM +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
    [ Cc d-project, as this was missuse of resources ]
    When you escalate something like this, it feels like you are trying to
    publicly shame the OP to a larger audience, because you disagree with
    something that they did or said. We clearly have two sides of the "AI"
    fence, and I suspect I'm on the same side as you. But this won't be
    solved by yelling "shame on you" to the people on the other side.
    If you feel that you don't have the time or energy to deal with whatever
    you consider bullshit, just ignore the message, or maybe just don't
    followup immediately and let others who are having a better day deal
    with it. For example, 2 other people already followed up on
    debian-powerpc with more useful answers, and without the judgement that
    you added.


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  • From Tiago Bortoletto Vaz@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 14, 2026 17:30:01
    On Wed, Jan 14, 2026 at 07:26:18AM -0300, Antonio Terceiro wrote:
    On Wed, Jan 14, 2026 at 08:30:12AM +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
    [ Cc d-project, as this was missuse of resources ]

    When you escalate something like this, it feels like you are trying to publicly shame the OP to a larger audience, because you disagree with something that they did or said. We clearly have two sides of the "AI"
    fence, and I suspect I'm on the same side as you. But this won't be
    solved by yelling "shame on you" to the people on the other side.

    If you feel that you don't have the time or energy to deal with whatever
    you consider bullshit, just ignore the message, or maybe just don't
    followup immediately and let others who are having a better day deal
    with it. For example, 2 other people already followed up on
    debian-powerpc with more useful answers, and without the judgement that
    you added.
    Very well said, thanks Terceiro <3
    One thing the proponents of AI thing are effective at is making humans angrier and angrier with each other. If only we could skip that (apparently intended) goal, it would be wonderful!
    Bests,
    --
    Tiago Bortoletto Vaz


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  • From Richard Lewis@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 14, 2026 22:30:01
    Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> writes:

    On Wed, Jan 14, 2026 at 08:30:12AM +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
    [ Cc d-project, as this was missuse of resources ]

    When you escalate something like this, it feels like you are trying to publicly shame the OP to a larger audience, because you disagree with something that they did or said. We clearly have two sides of the "AI"
    fence, and I suspect I'm on the same side as you. But this won't be
    solved by yelling "shame on you" to the people on the other side.

    +1 to all this!

    sorry for adding to the offtopic noise, but i am glad someone stood up
    for a more grown-up culture


    and also, the OP was asking a question of humans to check and understand
    the output of AI. this is hardly something to discourage.

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  • From Matthias Geiger@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 02:00:02
    On Wed, 14 Jan 2026 20:55, Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> wrote:
    Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> writes:

    sorry for adding to the offtopic noise, but i am glad someone stood up
    for a more grown-up culture

    I concur that publicly shaming is not nice.
    and also, the OP was asking a question of humans to check and
    understand
    the output of AI. this is hardly something to discourage.

    However, I can totally emphasize with being a maintainer, and having to
    deal with slop. Here, it was (hopefully) not intented, but I totally understand the frustration and anger.

    IMO it's high time we had a GR banning so-called AI (read LLMs) at the
    very least for project contributions, and I would suggest just to ignore
    mail that looks like it was written by a machine in the meantime.

    best,

    werdahias

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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  • From Lucas Nussbaum@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 16:00:01
    On 15/01/26 at 00:49 +0100, Matthias Geiger wrote:
    IMO it's high time we had a GR banning so-called AI (read LLMs) at the very least for project contributions, and I would suggest just to ignore mail
    that looks like it was written by a machine in the meantime.

    On the other hand, since this discussion and GR did not happen yet, I
    think that it's unfair to assume that the result would be the rejection
    of AI-assisted contributions. I suspect that things would be a bit more nuanced.

    Two data points :

    1/ Back in June I volunteered to explore if we could get AI companies to sponsor Debian with LLM access (for Debian development). This went
    nowhere so far, unfortunately, but several DDs contacted me privately
    (for example during DebConf) to express interest. So clearly some DDs
    think that AI-assisted contributions are worth exploring in the context
    of Debian.

    2/ Most of my personal Free Software contributions over the last year
    have been AI-assisted to some degree. Usually that degree is that I let
    the agent write an initial version of the code, and then I review it,
    and then either rework it manually or prompt the agent to rework it until
    it matches my expectations, or a mix of both. When they were
    contributions to projects where I don't consider myself the maintainer,
    I think I was always clear that the contributions were AI-assisted.
    My feeling is that contributing that way made me produce more and in a
    more interesting way, because I was able to focus more on what the code achieves, than on not-so-interesting implementation details. Also it
    makes addressing boring bugs in legacy code a bit more fun.
    So if Debian had a policy of banning AI-assisted contributions, I would probably just decide to contribute elsewhere.

    I fully recognize that the AI world is far from perfect, and raises many questions. There's some moderate hope with open weight models and free frontends. Things are moving very fast, so it's hard to predict what
    will happen over the next months.

    In the end it's again a question of where we draw line.
    - Should we make a difference between AI-assisted and AI-generated
    contributions?
    - What about AI-assisted contributions to upstream projects?
    - If it's about non-free tools, what about bug reports generated by
    services such as Coverity Scan?
    - if it's about environmental impact, what about large-scale QA checks
    and CI?

    Lucas

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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  • From Sylvain L. Sauvage@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 16:20:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    Le jeudi 15 janvier 2026, 15:46:02 heure normale d?Europe centrale
    Lucas Nussbaum a ‚crit :
    [?]
    2/ Most of my personal Free Software contributions over the last year
    have been AI-assisted to some degree. Usually that degree is that I let
    the agent write an initial version of the code, and then I review it,

    ?Review?: How do you know the code that was produced is not
    a verbatim of
    a code under an incompatible licence?
    --
    Sylvain L. Sauvage

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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  • From Lucas Nussbaum@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 17:10:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    On 15/01/26 at 16:03 +0100, Sylvain L. Sauvage wrote:
    Le jeudi 15 janvier 2026, 15:46:02 heure normale d?Europe centrale Lucas Nussbaum a ‚crit :
    [?]
    2/ Most of my personal Free Software contributions over the last year
    have been AI-assisted to some degree. Usually that degree is that I let
    the agent write an initial version of the code, and then I review it,

    ?Review?: How do you know the code that was produced is not a verbatim of
    a code under an incompatible licence?

    If you haven't already, I would recommend getting first hand experience
    with LLM-assisted coding. Using it to modify existing code is very
    different from using it to do "Vibe coding", where you generate large
    amounts of code without even reading it.

    In general the code produced by the LLM is very specific to the context :
    - the existing code being modified
    - the technologies in use and the general context (Debian)
    - the change being asked

    And it's also mostly about incremental modifications to a codebase.
    So the amount of lines added at a time is low. It's almost never about
    adding many lines of code from (likely) the same source. It's more like copy-pasting three different 2-lines snippets from documentations or stackoverflow, adjusting them to your context, and assembling them
    together, except the LLM does it for you.

    Lucas

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeremy Stanley@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 17:40:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    On 2026-01-15 16:03:50 +0100 (+0100), Sylvain L. Sauvage wrote:
    ?Review?: How do you know the code that was produced is not a verbatim of
    a code under an incompatible licence?
    On a related note, the Open Regulatory Compliance Working Group is
    hosting an online talk on that topic in a couple of weeks, for
    anyone interested in attending it: https://github.com/orcwg/orcwg/blob/main/events/cra-mondays/README.md#february-2-anyone-who-still-puts-ai-generated-code-into-circulation-today-has-conditional-intent-to-infringe-the-law--how-to-limit-or-at-least-defer-the-risk
    --
    Jeremy Stanley


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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  • From Sylvain L. Sauvage@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 18:00:03
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    Le jeudi 15 janvier 2026, 17:02:05 heure normale d?Europe centrale
    Lucas Nussbaum a ‚crit :
    [?]
    If you haven't already, I would recommend getting first hand experience
    with LLM-assisted coding. Using it to modify existing code is very
    different from using it to do "Vibe coding", where you generate large
    amounts of code without even reading it.

    Okay, but you said:
    ?I let the agent write an initial version of the code, and then I r
    eview
    it.?

    ?Initial version,? even if that?s not ?pure
    vibe coding,? it very much
    smells like it.


    In general the code produced by the LLM is very specific to the context :
    - the existing code being modified
    - the technologies in use and the general context (Debian)
    - the change being asked

    And it's also mostly about incremental modifications to a codebase.
    So the amount of lines added at a time is low. It's almost never about
    adding many lines of code from (likely) the same source. It's more like copy-pasting three different 2-lines snippets from documentations or stackoverflow, adjusting them to your context, and assembling them
    together, except the LLM does it for you.

    Two things:

    1. As said above, I wasn?t responding about incremental changes on

    existing code.
    Nonetheless, if you ask the tool to add a function to one of your files?
    ??
    maybe it?s incremental? but maybe it?s just regurgi
    tating almost verbatim
    someone else?s code (changing their tab indentation and camel case

    notation to your code?s 4-space indentation and snake case).
    Maybe you won?t agree on ?regurgitating,? maybe you
    ?d call that
    ?reinventing?? but if a human studied a lot of code
    s (and was known to
    have done that) and managed to write a (non-trivial) function exactly as
    it was in that corpus (modulo cosmestics), they would be suspected of plagiarism.

    2. In any case, and more importantly, most of these tools have been
    trained on other people?s work, regardless (and stripping them) of
    their
    copyrights and licences. They are poisoned.

    --
    Sylvain L. Sauvage

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Marc Haber@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 19:10:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    On Thu, Jan 15, 2026 at 10:34:33PM +0530, Aryan Karamtoth wrote:
    I think one thing that people often forget is that you cannot hold an
    LLM accountable if anything breaks. If a human makes some kind of
    mistake in the code and someone points it out, the person can easily
    recall the steps he has done, discuss with the others and fix the bug.

    If I commit AI generated code I have reviewed and tested it and would
    probably have written worse code myself. Of course I can fix bugs in
    code that was AI generated on my prompting.

    I sometimes use AI for the boring part of coding, like "give me a python
    class with the following internal values, getter and setter methods etc"
    and happily take the generated slop. Another place where I happily
    accept slop is command line parsing. A lot of the small helpers I have
    written for myself in the last months would never have been written if I
    didnt have had the LLM coding helper.

    And it is really nice to have a machine tell me whether it's else, else
    if, elsif or elif in the language I am using today. That's huge savings
    in time.

    Greetings
    Marc

    -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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  • From Dominik George@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 20:40:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    Hi,

    1/ Back in June I volunteered to explore if we could get AI companies to sponsor Debian with LLM access (for Debian development). This went
    nowhere so far, unfortunately, but several DDs contacted me privately
    (for example during DebConf) to express interest. So clearly some DDs
    think that AI-assisted contributions are worth exploring in the context
    of Debian.

    There are also some DDs who think that GitHub is a great platform to
    host their source package repos, or to let telemetry activated in their packages, and so on. That some DDs think that something is good doesn't actually mean it *is* good.


    2/ Most of my personal Free Software contributions over the last year
    have been AI-assisted to some degree. Usually that degree is that I let
    the agent write an initial version of the code, and then I review it,
    and then either rework it manually or prompt the agent to rework it until
    it matches my expectations, or a mix of both. When they were
    contributions to projects where I don't consider myself the maintainer,
    I think I was always clear that the contributions were AI-assisted.
    My feeling is that contributing that way made me produce more and in a
    more interesting way, because I was able to focus more on what the code achieves, than on not-so-interesting implementation details. Also it
    makes addressing boring bugs in legacy code a bit more fun.
    So if Debian had a policy of banning AI-assisted contributions, I would probably just decide to contribute elsewhere.

    Please be aware that your statement implies that you already willingly violated Debian policies: You added code that you most likely do not hav
    a valid, DFSG-compatible license for, and cannot correctly attribute in d/copyright.

    So, if you think the existing policies are worth nothing and you are not willing to comply with them, then yes, contributing somewhere els
    instead sounds like a reasonable idea.

    - If it's about non-free tools, what about bug reports generated by
    services such as Coverity Scan?
    - if it's about environmental impact, what about large-scale QA checks
    and CI?

    And if it is about whataboutism, then what about whataboutism?

    -nik

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lucas Nussbaum@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 20:50:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    On 15/01/26 at 17:43 +0100, Sylvain L. Sauvage wrote:
    Le jeudi 15 janvier 2026, 17:02:05 heure normale d?Europe centrale Lucas Nussbaum a ‚crit :
    [?]
    If you haven't already, I would recommend getting first hand experience with LLM-assisted coding. Using it to modify existing code is very different from using it to do "Vibe coding", where you generate large amounts of code without even reading it.

    Okay, but you said:
    ?I let the agent write an initial version of the code, and then I review
    it.?

    ?Initial version,? even if that?s not ?pure vibe coding,? it very much
    smells like it.

    I probably should have written "initial version of the patch/change"
    indeed.

    Nonetheless, if you ask the tool to add a function to one of your files? maybe it?s incremental? but maybe it?s just regurgitating almost verbatim someone else?s code (changing their tab indentation and camel case
    notation to your code?s 4-space indentation and snake case).

    My feeling is that it would not happen like that. I would first ask for
    a change in the code to add a missing feature, then as a second step I
    would ask for refactoring. Mainly because it's much easier to review the
    two steps separately. Since the new function would be a result of the refactoring, it's less likely to be code regurgitated from elsewhere.

    But I see some people writing about first designing a detailed spec of
    what they want the LLM to do, and then asking the LLM to implement. In
    that case, it might be more likely to regurgitate code captured
    elsewhere. I don't really know since that's not my workflow.

    Maybe you won?t agree on ?regurgitating,? maybe you?d call that ?reinventing?? but if a human studied a lot of codes (and was known to
    have done that) and managed to write a (non-trivial) function exactly as
    it was in that corpus (modulo cosmestics), they would be suspected of plagiarism.

    2. In any case, and more importantly, most of these tools have been
    trained on other people?s work, regardless (and stripping them) of their copyrights and licences. They are poisoned.

    That's true. I must admit I did not follow much the legal side of
    things. However, if the original code was free software, I think it can
    be argued that training falls under Freedom #0 or #1.

    Lucas

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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  • From Ansgar ?@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 21:20:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    Hi,

    On Thu, 2026-01-15 at 19:44 +0100, Dominik George wrote:
    Please be aware that your statement implies that you already willingly

    violated Debian policies: You added code that you most likely do not hav

    a valid, DFSG-compatible license for, and cannot correctly attribute in

    d/copyright.

    Uploads of src:linux since 6.15 fulfill this:

    +---
    | [A patch] that was merged for the 6.15 release. That patch was
    | entirely written by an LLM, changelog included.
    +---[ https://lwn.net/Articles/1026558/ ]

    So, if you think the existing policies are worth nothing and you are not

    willing to comply with them, then yes, contributing somewhere els
    instead sounds like a reasonable idea.

    Do you think all src:linux maintainers should leave the project and we
    should revert to a pre-6.15 kernel (or even earlier)? And what about
    other packages? Please don't assume src:linux is the only package with LLM-generated contributions.

    If not, how is that compatible with your message?

    Ansgar

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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  • From Lucas Nussbaum@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 21:40:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    On 15/01/26 at 19:44 +0100, Dominik George wrote:
    Hi,

    1/ Back in June I volunteered to explore if we could get AI companies to sponsor Debian with LLM access (for Debian development). This went
    nowhere so far, unfortunately, but several DDs contacted me privately
    (for example during DebConf) to express interest. So clearly some DDs
    think that AI-assisted contributions are worth exploring in the context
    of Debian.

    There are also some DDs who think that GitHub is a great platform to host their source package repos, or to let telemetry activated in their packages, and so on. That some DDs think that something is good doesn't actually mean it *is* good.

    I don't think that AI coding assistants fit in the same category, as
    they do not impose anything on other developers or users. Can you
    elaborate on why you think this is a similar situation?

    There's the argument of the review load. I think that either the
    developer should take full responsability for the AI-assisted
    contributions and ensure through their own review that the contributions
    are of the same quality as others (so there's no additional review
    load); or the developer should clearly state that the contribution is AI-assisted/AI-generated and can be of lesser quality, so reviewers can
    decide on the energy they want to spend on the contribution.

    (The second case happened to me in the context of proposing a change to something in a language I'm not familiar with -- I can test the change
    and review the logic, but not review whether the syntax is optimal.)

    2/ Most of my personal Free Software contributions over the last year
    have been AI-assisted to some degree. Usually that degree is that I let
    the agent write an initial version of the code, and then I review it,
    and then either rework it manually or prompt the agent to rework it until it matches my expectations, or a mix of both. When they were
    contributions to projects where I don't consider myself the maintainer,
    I think I was always clear that the contributions were AI-assisted.
    My feeling is that contributing that way made me produce more and in a
    more interesting way, because I was able to focus more on what the code achieves, than on not-so-interesting implementation details. Also it
    makes addressing boring bugs in legacy code a bit more fun.
    So if Debian had a policy of banning AI-assisted contributions, I would probably just decide to contribute elsewhere.

    Please be aware that your statement implies that you already willingly violated Debian policies: You added code that you most likely do not hav a valid, DFSG-compatible license for, and cannot correctly attribute in d/copyright.

    Note that most of the contributions I was describing are to
    infrastructure / services code : https://udd.debian.org, https://trends.debian.net, https://debaudit.debian.net.
    I don't have much experience on using AI for package maintenance tasks,
    mainly because I don't do much package maintenance nowadays.

    So, if you think the existing policies are worth nothing and you are not willing to comply with them, then yes, contributing somewhere els instead sounds like a reasonable idea.

    Thanks, that's nice.

    Lucas

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dominik George@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 15, 2026 22:20:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    Uploads of src:linux since 6.15 fulfill this:

    +---
    | [A patch] that was merged for the 6.15 release. That patch was
    | entirely written by an LLM, changelog included.
    +---[ https://lwn.net/Articles/1026558/ ]

    So, if you think the existing policies are worth nothing and you are not
    willing to comply with them, then yes, contributing somewhere els
    instead sounds like a reasonable idea.

    Do you think all src:linux maintainers should leave the project and we
    should revert to a pre-6.15 kernel (or even earlier)? And what about
    other packages? Please don't assume src:linux is the only package with LLM-generated contributions.
    I do actually think that. However, I obviously have no idea what to do afterwards, because there is no replacement for the Linux kernel.

    -nik

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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  • From Raphael Hertzog@3:633/10 to All on Friday, January 16, 2026 12:00:01
    Subject: Re: On rejecting LLM-based contributions (Was: On publicly shaming people)

    Hi Dominik,

    On Thu, 15 Jan 2026, Dominik George wrote:
    So, if you think the existing policies are worth nothing and you are not willing to comply with them, then yes, contributing somewhere els instead sounds like a reasonable idea.

    And if I believe that your extreme positions are actually hurting Debian,
    can I also suggest that you should contribute elsewhere and stop trying
    to enforce your personal views on the project?

    It's not the first time that you invited people to leave Debian. I find
    that a very bad attitude. We can have different points of views and even
    try to convince others. But plainly asserting your beliefs (again and
    again, everytime that IA or Google or some other things that you don't
    like appears in the discussion) will not help to convince anyone, and your hostile attitude does not contribute to make Debian a very welcoming
    place.

    And I care about Debian being a welcoming place.

    Cheers,
    --
    ??????? Rapha‰l Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>
    ???????
    ?????? The Debian Handbook: https://debian-handbook.info/get/
    ??????? Debian Long Term Support: https://deb.li/LTS

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
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