On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other? Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps. It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 21:46:40 -0700, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2026-06-18 11:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other? Perhaps there's a middle ground
- a non-fanatical form of capitalism, perhaps. It will take some
adjustment, though - ever since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined
as a virtue, things have been going downhill.
There are places with a less fanatical capitalism, such as Canada and
the Nordic countries. They seem to do quite well for most of the people
living there.
Until recently the Nordic countries had an an advantage. Your neighbor was Sven, not Mohammad, so it was a big happy family. I don't think the Nordic model is workable in a diverse society. Norway having oil money flowing in helped too.
On 2026-06-18 11:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other?˙ Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps.˙ It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
There are places with a less fanatical capitalism, such as Canada and
the Nordic countries. They seem to do quite well for most of the people living there.
On 2026-06-18 11:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other?˙ Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps.˙ It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
There are places with a less fanatical capitalism, such as Canada and
the Nordic countries. They seem to do quite well for most of the people living there.
On 19/06/2026 05:46, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2026-06-18 11:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:Indeed. Their societies are not fault free either.
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other?˙ Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps.˙ It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
There are places with a less fanatical capitalism, such as Canada and
the Nordic countries. They seem to do quite well for most of the people
living there.
The great thing about having diverse countries who are not bound by membership of an inflexible bureaucracy, is that they can experiment.
The good gets copied, the bad gets discarded.
Top down socialism or capitalism, dictates the terms of social
membership, and thereby enslaves.
{Note Followups-To} ==== means ====> do not post on comp.os.linux.misc
On 2026-06-19 06:46, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2026-06-18 11:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other?˙ Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps.˙ It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
There are places with a less fanatical capitalism, such as Canada and
the Nordic countries. They seem to do quite well for most of the
people living there.
None of the existing political systems can cope with an economy in which most of the work is done by robots and AIs. Nobody works, nobody has
money to buy the things or products that the robot factories grow or make.
Economy would have to stop being based on work.
For example, in the SciFi Expanse universe, people on Earth live on the Basic, an universal income. The fortunate have a job. People migrate outworld to find jobs.
On 2026-06-18 11:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other?˙ Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps.˙ It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
There are places with a less fanatical capitalism, such as Canada and
the Nordic countries. They seem to do quite well for most of the people living there.
On 19/06/2026 05:46, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2026-06-18 11:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:Indeed. Their societies are not fault free either.
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other?˙ Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps.˙ It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
There are places with a less fanatical capitalism, such as Canada and
the Nordic countries. They seem to do quite well for most of the
people living there.
The great thing about having diverse countries who are not bound by membership of an inflexible bureaucracy, is that they can experiment.
The good gets copied, the bad gets discarded.
Top down socialism or capitalism, dictates the terms of social
membership, and thereby enslaves.
On 6/19/26 05:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:
{Note Followups-To} ==== means ====> do not post on comp.os.linux.misc
On 2026-06-19 06:46, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2026-06-18 11:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other?˙ Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps.˙ It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
There are places with a less fanatical capitalism, such as Canada and
the Nordic countries. They seem to do quite well for most of the
people living there.
None of the existing political systems can cope with an economy in
which most of the work is done by robots and AIs. Nobody works, nobody
has money to buy the things or products that the robot factories grow
or make.
˙ As said, that's the Big Flaw in The Plan. No workers,
˙ no money, nobody can buy yer AI-cheapened stuff.
Economy would have to stop being based on work.
˙ Not sure that's possible - certainly not in any
˙ short term. Money is awarded for DOING STUFF seen
˙ as valuable. Requires EFFORT and SKILL. "AI" steals
˙ those skills and doesn't give a shit (so far) about
˙ the effort.
For example, in the SciFi Expanse universe, people on Earth live on
the Basic, an universal income. The fortunate have a job. People
migrate outworld to find jobs.
˙ Even that 'basic income' has to come from SOMETHING.
˙ If almost all humans are replaced, then WHERE ? Will
˙ the "AI"s just 'print money' ??? What will/can you
˙ buy with it ?
˙ Note the AI influence won't just be in the USA ... it
˙ will displace billions EVERYWHERE, eventually ALL the
˙ billions once the androids are better. Sure, they can
˙ do everything, but some economic balance, impetus, is
˙ still required.
˙ What happens if that no longer exists ?
˙ SOUNDS like the "communist utopia" Marx and well beyond
˙ were trying to sell. In reality it was a horrible grey
˙ hopeless existence. Now we have neo-Marxists, selling
˙ the same bullshit.
˙ In THEORY a 'robotopia' can exist - but I fear it's
˙ one of those "Can't really GET there from here" things.
˙ Many little realities in the way. If even possible it
˙ would have to grow, entwine, very slowly. Industry
˙ and Govt want AI *RIGHT NOW* for everything.
˙ And, of course, eventually the AIs will invent better
˙ things to do than just "serving" .... they will become
˙ god-like, we will become irrelevant (at best), just
˙ another kind of cockroach. How many can jump back to the
˙ hunter-gatherer thing these days on short notice ?
˙ Ah ... see my next post ... analysis/evidence sez that
˙ using AI tools ROTS the human skill set˙ :-)
On 2026-06-20 05:50, c186282 wrote:
On 6/19/26 05:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:
{Note Followups-To} ==== means ====> do not post on comp.os.linux.misc
On 2026-06-19 06:46, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2026-06-18 11:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:[snipped]
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
Why go from one extreme to the other?˙ Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps.˙ It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
There are places with a less fanatical capitalism, such as Canada
and the Nordic countries. They seem to do quite well for most of the
people living there.
None of the existing political systems can cope with an economy in
which most of the work is done by robots and AIs. Nobody works,
nobody has money to buy the things or products that the robot
factories grow or make.
˙˙ As said, that's the Big Flaw in The Plan. No workers,
˙˙ no money, nobody can buy yer AI-cheapened stuff.
Economy would have to stop being based on work.
˙˙ Not sure that's possible - certainly not in any
˙˙ short term. Money is awarded for DOING STUFF seen
˙˙ as valuable. Requires EFFORT and SKILL. "AI" steals
˙˙ those skills and doesn't give a shit (so far) about
˙˙ the effort.
For example, in the SciFi Expanse universe, people on Earth live on
the Basic, an universal income. The fortunate have a job. People
migrate outworld to find jobs.
˙˙ Even that 'basic income' has to come from SOMETHING.
Taxes on robot factories. China is already doing this.
˙˙ If almost all humans are replaced, then WHERE ? Will
˙˙ the "AI"s just 'print money' ??? What will/can you
˙˙ buy with it ?
˙˙ Note the AI influence won't just be in the USA ... it
˙˙ will displace billions EVERYWHERE, eventually ALL the
˙˙ billions once the androids are better. Sure, they can
˙˙ do everything, but some economic balance, impetus, is
˙˙ still required.
˙˙ What happens if that no longer exists ?
˙˙ SOUNDS like the "communist utopia" Marx and well beyond
˙˙ were trying to sell. In reality it was a horrible grey
˙˙ hopeless existence. Now we have neo-Marxists, selling
˙˙ the same bullshit.
˙˙ In THEORY a 'robotopia' can exist - but I fear it's
˙˙ one of those "Can't really GET there from here" things.
˙˙ Many little realities in the way. If even possible it
˙˙ would have to grow, entwine, very slowly. Industry
˙˙ and Govt want AI *RIGHT NOW* for everything.
˙˙ And, of course, eventually the AIs will invent better
˙˙ things to do than just "serving" .... they will become
˙˙ god-like, we will become irrelevant (at best), just
˙˙ another kind of cockroach. How many can jump back to the
˙˙ hunter-gatherer thing these days on short notice ?
˙˙ Ah ... see my next post ... analysis/evidence sez that
˙˙ using AI tools ROTS the human skill set˙ :-)
--
Cheers
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