On 12.06.2026 01:49 c186282 c186282 wrote:
IMHO, if you want RPMs, Fedora. Had serious update
probs with the latest one though - even NOT in a
virtual machine. They know, they can't seem to get
it fixed properly, hangs about a third of the
way through.
What was the issue with that?
I also use it and updating it works fine.
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hell, even had to install YAST2 using Zypper.
NO software center at all in XFCE. The one in KDE, "Discovery", only
shows maybe ten percent of the actual software to be had ... gotta use
YAST.
Did you get a yast2 GUI? 'zypper in yast2' give you choices, one of which
is to remove busybox-hostname, the other is to install it but some dependencies might be missing. I took the goat behind Door 3. It installed but it's the ncurses TUI.
OpenSUSE used to be kinda 'Cadillac'. Used it for a LONG time - desktops
and servers. Now it seems to intentionally work against your desires -
as shriveled as a 99 year olds testicles.
Leap 16 is now downstream of SLE with some additional community packages. Yast has been replaced by Myrlyn. The Agama installed is a work in
progress. A common complaint is people assuming it's a linear install like most other distros. If you don't select a DE from the menus on the left
you get the straight server install. "WTF do I do now?"
Supposedly they will make it a little more user friendly. Then there's CockPit, which I'm not sure really works on Leap yet.
If you want to live dangerously go for Tumbleweed or Slowroll. They're rolling distros. Even that's a little strange as updating is 'zypper dup'
so every update is treated like a distro update.
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:
IMHO, if you want RPMs, Fedora. Had serious update probs with the latest
one though - even NOT in a virtual machine. They know, they can't seem
to get it fixed properly, hangs about a third of the way through.
You seem to have all sorts of problems. I haven't had a problem with
Fedora. I usually grab the beta when it's available and that hasn't been a problem though I might get more updates than waiting for the release.
I updated to Ubuntu 26.04 today. It took several hours but everything I
tried so far seems to work as before except the Python venvs since it went
to 3.14. I did have a problem with Playwright since it doesn't support
26.04 yet. There's a funky workaround that sort of works.
On 12.06.2026 02:12 c186282 c186282 wrote:
The ISSUE is that the usual GUI updater
DOES NOT WORK.
Discover?
Works for me. What does not work on your system?
Ubuntu got too weird for my tastes some years ago.
[...], too many "buy
our cloud/whatever shit" pushes.
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:
OpenSUSE used to be kinda 'Cadillac'. Used it for a LONG time - desktops
and servers. Now it seems to intentionally work against your desires -
as shriveled as a 99 year olds testicles.
Leap 16 is now downstream of SLE with some additional community packages.
On 6/12/26 02:22, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:
ÿ Didn't do the server install. TRIED the XFCE first, very
ÿ threadbare and hates VBox. Then KDE even though I don't
ÿ like it. Has more stuff.
ÿ Just started myrlyn a minute ago ... "searched" for
ÿ "FORTRAN" and "COBOL" with all search-field boxes
ÿ checked. NADA. Checked the "contains" box and it
ÿ FINALLY found some stuff - too MUCH stuff. It's better
ÿ than "discovery" but still not my old GUI YAST.
ÿ And the software SELECTION is much smaller than even
ÿ a few years ago.
OK ... OpenSUSE has become just kinda TERRIBLE ... it's
like stepping 25 years back.
The installer won't let you change the disks - BTRFS or
nothing.
The desktops offered are KDS (nasty), GNOME
(worse) or an XCFC that will only use Wayland and will
not start properly in VirtualBox (unless you pick an
'invalid' option = 800x600)
AFTER install, theoretically Cinemmon and IceWM are
to be had ... but IF you install them then even the
cheat boot won't work. (if starting from XFCE)
Other software and devel stuff - a VERY short list.
WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED ???
What an EMBARRASSMENT !
Is the "team" down to one old guy with a
"Fallen And Can't Get Up" tag around
his neck ? Shows how much a distro CAN
rot away.
Yea, tried the offline AND online installers.
Hell, even had to install YAST2 using Zypper.
NO software center at all in XFCE. The one
in KDE, "Discovery", only shows maybe ten
percent of the actual software to be had ...
gotta use YAST.
OK ... OpenSUSE has become just kinda TERRIBLE ... it's
On 2026-06-12 09:14, c186282 wrote:
On 6/12/26 02:22, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:
...
ÿÿ Didn't do the server install. TRIED the XFCE first, very
ÿÿ threadbare and hates VBox. Then KDE even though I don't
ÿÿ like it. Has more stuff.
ÿÿ Just started myrlyn a minute ago ... "searched" for
ÿÿ "FORTRAN" and "COBOL" with all search-field boxes
ÿÿ checked. NADA. Checked the "contains" box and it
ÿÿ FINALLY found some stuff - too MUCH stuff. It's better
ÿÿ than "discovery" but still not my old GUI YAST.
Use "opi" to search for extra packages.
opi fortran finds dozens of hits.
cer@Laicolasse:~> opi cobol
Searching repos for: cobol
1. gnucobol
2. gnu-cobol
3. gnucobol-esql
4. gnucobol-runtime
5. gnucobol-esql-devel
Pick a number (0 to quit):
This is not new.
ÿÿ And the software SELECTION is much smaller than even
ÿÿ a few years ago.
Use opi.
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 23:37:58 -0400, c186282 wrote:
And frankly don't entirely trust the RPM universe since RH sold out to
IBM. If IBM wants me to be a beta-tester it can PAY me.
Your options are quite limited. I was going to put up MX in a VM. It may
be me but the estimate was 2 or 3 hours to download the 2.8 GB Xfce iso. I canceled the download and may try again some time. I'm not a fan of
anything that goes through SourceForge for downloads.
On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 04:18:40 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The XFCE version is probably "best" overall, but as I remember you're
a KDE fanatic.
I've got KDE on the Fedora and Leap boxes. Don't need another KDE to
confuse me. I had Debian/Xfce on my Linux box at work. Certainly usable
and the trailing edge is a good place to be with a production machine. The real driver was I needed a 32 bit distro.
Red Hat used to be good ... but after selling out to IBM, it and all
the downstream versions became basically "beta testing" versions for
IBM.
When I switched from Red Hat Linux to SuSE in 2002, RHL was sort of beta. Q.v. gcc 2.96.
https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-2.96.html
They had to follow up with another version since it wouldn't compile the kernel. The RHL Python brew also broke existing scripts. There were
probably other problems I didn't run into. It only took a couple of
decades before I would look at Fedora.
Of course plenty of OTHER distros out there beyond MX,
Linux and BSD. IF you have the bandwidth then try 'em and see what
fits YOUR wants and needs. I'm not some religious crusader here ...
whatever suits YOU.
Truth is for what I do Leap, Fedora, Ubuntu, and Mint/Cinnamon all work equally well. antiX with IceWM might not but that's sort of an experiment with the eeePC. That isn't and never was something you'd want to do a lot
of work on.
I do keep an eye out for a distro when I get ambitious enough to redo the Ubuntu box. 26.04 is the end of the line for it. Even 26.10 supposedly
will be filled with AI goodness.
Hmm, ever tried GenToo ? I never did. Might be worth a look .......
Nope. I don't distro hop as much as put different distros on different machines for variety. I've got other fish to fry than nursing Gentoo or
one of the BSDs along.
Still interested in trying GenToo ... never have.
Some describe it as "Linux-ish" though technically
it's a Linux.
On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 23:09:35 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Distro TESTING however ... that's something VBox is good for.
kvm/QEMU for me. I know you had problems with it but I haven't.
On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 23:09:35 -0400, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Still interested in trying GenToo ... never have.
Some describe it as "Linux-ish" though technically
it's a Linux.
I run gentoo everywhere. I'm not sure what only makes it "Linux-ish".
It's a
"you only get what you install" distro. Which means, you're compiling everything as well. But it runs all the same stuff and has all the same packages available as any other distro.
The portage package manager is super powerful and flexible. It has a learning
curve though. After almost 10 years with it, I can't go back. I find yum/dnf on
Rocky very limiting, and apt has always felt brain-dead to me.
I run gentoo everywhere. I'm not sure what only makes it "Linux-ish". It's a >"you only get what you install" distro. Which means, you're compiling >everything as well.
On 6/12/26 05:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-12 09:14, c186282 wrote:
On 6/12/26 02:22, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:
...
ÿÿ Didn't do the server install. TRIED the XFCE first, very
ÿÿ threadbare and hates VBox. Then KDE even though I don't
ÿÿ like it. Has more stuff.
ÿÿ Just started myrlyn a minute ago ... "searched" for
ÿÿ "FORTRAN" and "COBOL" with all search-field boxes
ÿÿ checked. NADA. Checked the "contains" box and it
ÿÿ FINALLY found some stuff - too MUCH stuff. It's better
ÿÿ than "discovery" but still not my old GUI YAST.
Use "opi" to search for extra packages.
opi fortran finds dozens of hits.
cer@Laicolasse:~> opi cobol
Searching repos for: cobol
1. gnucobol
2. gnu-cobol
3. gnucobol-esql
4. gnucobol-runtime
5. gnucobol-esql-devel
Pick a number (0 to quit):
This is not new.
ÿ Is to me ... I went Deb some years ago when OS
ÿ dropped a bunch of olde-tyme utils for no good
ÿ reason. I used a lot of those from Python scripts
ÿ and such. Evoke, parse, exactly the info I wanted.
ÿ Now, OS looks just HORRIBLE.
ÿÿ And the software SELECTION is much smaller than even
ÿÿ a few years ago.
Use opi.
ÿ Hmm - NOT installed by default. Why not ? Barely
ÿ different from zypper.
ÿ After INSTALLING Yast ... the terminal version seems
ÿ the only survivor ... it too can find obscure stuff,
ÿ but makes installation/dependencies easier than zypper.
ÿ Also, 'opi' is pure CLI, not a convenient and very
ÿ helpful GUI thingie like 'synaptic'. Really NOTHING
ÿ beats synaptic for all-around utility. 'OctoPkg'
ÿ comes close, but it's still clunkier.
ÿ Sorry, not sold. Not at all. Seen how it COULD be,
ÿ and now they took it all away.
ÿ Gonna squish it into a Maybe-Someday VDI file and
ÿ stash it somewhere deep and dark until I want the
ÿ disk space back. NO point in wasting my time with
ÿ today's idea of OpenSUSE.
ÿ Some versions of Arch that might be interesting,
ÿ a couple BSDs too. Never tried Gentoo ... might be
ÿ worth a look. Did install GhostBSD on another box,
ÿ not TOO bad, worth more time.
ÿ But OpenSUSE ... past glory, modern DISAPPOINTMENT.
ÿ FLUSH !
On 2026-06-13 05:21, c186282 wrote:
On 6/12/26 05:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-12 09:14, c186282 wrote:
On 6/12/26 02:22, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:
...
ÿÿ Didn't do the server install. TRIED the XFCE first, very
ÿÿ threadbare and hates VBox. Then KDE even though I don't
ÿÿ like it. Has more stuff.
ÿÿ Just started myrlyn a minute ago ... "searched" for
ÿÿ "FORTRAN" and "COBOL" with all search-field boxes
ÿÿ checked. NADA. Checked the "contains" box and it
ÿÿ FINALLY found some stuff - too MUCH stuff. It's better
ÿÿ than "discovery" but still not my old GUI YAST.
Use "opi" to search for extra packages.
opi fortran finds dozens of hits.
cer@Laicolasse:~> opi cobol
Searching repos for: cobol
1. gnucobol
2. gnu-cobol
3. gnucobol-esql
4. gnucobol-runtime
5. gnucobol-esql-devel
Pick a number (0 to quit):
This is not new.
ÿÿ Is to me ... I went Deb some years ago when OS
ÿÿ dropped a bunch of olde-tyme utils for no good
ÿÿ reason. I used a lot of those from Python scripts
ÿÿ and such. Evoke, parse, exactly the info I wanted.
ÿÿ Now, OS looks just HORRIBLE.
ÿÿ And the software SELECTION is much smaller than even
ÿÿ a few years ago.
Use opi.
ÿÿ Hmm - NOT installed by default. Why not ? Barely
ÿÿ different from zypper.
Not so. It is a lot different than zypper. It searches in all repos, configured or not, and finds what repo has it. Then it adds the repo and install the package(s), by calling zypper.
ÿÿ After INSTALLING Yast ... the terminal version seems
ÿÿ the only survivor ... it too can find obscure stuff,
ÿÿ but makes installation/dependencies easier than zypper.
Do not use YaST, it is not maintained. It will cause errors eventually.
Use myrlin.
ÿÿ Also, 'opi' is pure CLI, not a convenient and very
ÿÿ helpful GUI thingie like 'synaptic'. Really NOTHING
ÿÿ beats synaptic for all-around utility. 'OctoPkg'
ÿÿ comes close, but it's still clunkier.
ÿÿ Sorry, not sold. Not at all. Seen how it COULD be,
ÿÿ and now they took it all away.
I don't care you don't like it. YOU HAVE to use opi to find things you
don't find with zypper or myrlin. There is no alternative.
ÿÿ Gonna squish it into a Maybe-Someday VDI file and
ÿÿ stash it somewhere deep and dark until I want the
ÿÿ disk space back. NO point in wasting my time with
ÿÿ today's idea of OpenSUSE.
ÿÿ Some versions of Arch that might be interesting,
ÿÿ a couple BSDs too. Never tried Gentoo ... might be
ÿÿ worth a look. Did install GhostBSD on another box,
ÿÿ not TOO bad, worth more time.
ÿÿ But OpenSUSE ... past glory, modern DISAPPOINTMENT.
ÿÿ FLUSH !
On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 07:01:50 -0000 (UTC), Mechanicjay wrote:
I run gentoo everywhere. I'm not sure what only makes it "Linux-ish".
It's a "you only get what you install" distro. Which means, you're
compiling everything as well. But it runs all the same stuff and has
all the same packages available as any other distro.
The thrill of building everything from tarballs wore off about 25 years
ago for me.
On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 03:57:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Alas VBox, of late, has become kinda weird.
MAYbe they'll fix it, MAYbe they'll only do it if you pay lots of
money.
I didn't try really hard but VB on Mint didn't go smoothly even after blacklisting the kvm module. It bitched about dependencies that looked
like they would conflict with installed packages. No need when 'apt
install virt-manager' goes smoothly.
For the record, do NOT think it's a great idea to VM one machine into
10. Hardware FAILS ...
and then it'll take your WHOLE operation down. Been there, seen it,
smelled the smoke coming out of the server.
Yea, ACTUAL smoke - higher-end board too.
I had a long discussion with one of our senior implementation people. Mirroring a VM to another VM on the same box doesn't cover your ass very well.
We used VMs for testing in house. The discussions could get heated if
someone shutdown a VM they didn't think anyone was using to fire up
another one.
Just this week I tested OpenSUSE. After allocating what I *thought*
would be enough fake disk space I saw I'd already used up like 85%
plus. VBox ... just move a slider and wait maybe ten minutes.
KVM/Xen/etc ... it's editing fiddly config files and then two or
three weird/dangerous ops to convince the OS to use the extra space.
So, guess which solution I go with ....
I skimped with MX and gave it 20 GB. It used 11 G, which is okay for my purposed. I also gave it 8 GB of RAM and so far it's used under 1 GB. Not bad.
On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 22:51:11 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Downloading a couple of Solaris derivs, including something called
'Tribblix' with fair reviews. The mirror is SLOW SLOW SLOW alas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trouble_with_Tribbles
I was never into Star Trek and never saw that episode. However I had read Heinlein's 'The Rolling Stones', maybe even in the 'Boy's Life' version,
and really wanted a flat cat. That might have something to do with my like for non-flat cats. Heinlein signed off on the Tribbles script though he
later regretted it.
Heinlein's 'juveniles' got him from the pulps to more serious novels, but
I was in the right place at the right time since most were published in
the '50s.
On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 22:51:11 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Downloading a couple of Solaris derivs, including something called
'Tribblix' with fair reviews. The mirror is SLOW SLOW SLOW alas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trouble_with_Tribbles
I was never into Star Trek and never saw that episode. However I had read Heinlein's 'The Rolling Stones', maybe even in the 'Boy's Life' version,
and really wanted a flat cat. That might have something to do with my like for non-flat cats. Heinlein signed off on the Tribbles script though he later regretted it.
Heinlein's 'juveniles' got him from the pulps to more serious novels, but
I was in the right place at the right time since most were published in
the '50s.
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 20:41:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
That was not the decision taken by many US firms.
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 02:00:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/06/2026 23:21, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 20:41:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
That was not the decision taken by many US firms.
One cant account for technologically backward countries
How is the British automotive industry doing?
On 2026-06-15 21:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
Picking cherry tomatoes in Spain is paid 80?/day. Morocco, 8?/day. The
only solution for Spain is to automate to compete. Ditch labour.
On 16/06/2026 11:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-15 21:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Entirely correct.
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
Picking cherry tomatoes in Spain is paid 80?/day. Morocco, 8?/day. The
only solution for Spain is to automate to compete. Ditch labour.
And the Moroccan ones taste better.
On 2026-06-16 12:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/06/2026 11:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-15 21:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Entirely correct.
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
Picking cherry tomatoes in Spain is paid 80?/day. Morocco, 8?/day.
The only solution for Spain is to automate to compete. Ditch labour.
And the Moroccan ones taste better.
Yes, the forbidden chemicals they use make a difference >:-P
On 16/06/2026 14:14, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-16 12:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Oddly enough. EU regulations are far slacker than UK ones.
On 16/06/2026 11:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-15 21:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Entirely correct.
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
Picking cherry tomatoes in Spain is paid 80?/day. Morocco, 8?/day.
The only solution for Spain is to automate to compete. Ditch labour.
And the Moroccan ones taste better.
Yes, the forbidden chemicals they use make a difference >:-P
We get Moroccan chemicalÿ tomatoes. Not dangerous 'organic' beansprouts
"In 2011, contaminated organic bean sprouts caused a massive and deadly
E. coli outbreak centered in northern Germany. The outbreak killed over
30 people and sickened more than 3,000 across Europe. It remains one of
the worst foodborne illness epidemics in modern history."
On 2026-06-15 21:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
Picking cherry tomatoes in Spain is paid 80?/day. Morocco, 8?/day. The
only solution for Spain is to automate to compete. Ditch labour.
On 16/06/2026 03:55, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 02:00:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/06/2026 23:21, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 20:41:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
That was not the decision taken by many US firms.
One cant account for technologically backward countries
How is the British automotive industry doing?
WE consider it too technologically backward to bother with, frankly.
Bestÿ left to greasy pawed Krauts.
On 2026-06-16 12:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/06/2026 11:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-15 21:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Entirely correct.
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
Picking cherry tomatoes in Spain is paid 80?/day. Morocco, 8?/day.
The only solution for Spain is to automate to compete. Ditch labour.
And the Moroccan ones taste better.
Yes, the forbidden chemicals they use make a difference >:-P
On 16/06/2026 14:14, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-16 12:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Oddly enough. EU regulations are far slacker than UK ones.
On 16/06/2026 11:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-15 21:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Entirely correct.
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
Picking cherry tomatoes in Spain is paid 80?/day. Morocco, 8?/day.
The only solution for Spain is to automate to compete. Ditch labour.
And the Moroccan ones taste better.
Yes, the forbidden chemicals they use make a difference >:-P
We get Moroccan chemicalÿ tomatoes. Not dangerous 'organic' beansprouts
"In 2011, contaminated organic bean sprouts caused a massive and deadly
E. coli outbreak centered in northern Germany. The outbreak killed over
30 people and sickened more than 3,000 across Europe. It remains one of
the worst foodborne illness epidemics in modern history."
On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 12:34:54 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-15 21:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:Picking cherry tomatoes in Spain is paid 80?/day. Morocco, 8?/day. The
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
only solution for Spain is to automate to compete. Ditch labour.
The US has embraced farm automation. Uncle Remus ain't out in the field picking cotton anymore; he's collecting welfare and having mostly peaceful gatherings.
Pissed it all away, didn't you? Not much left beyond the paper shufflers
in the City, is there?
The US followed suit. Today we grow cotton, ship it to Bangladesh, and buy
it back as cheap goods from Walmart.
On 2026-06-16 16:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/06/2026 14:14, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-16 12:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Oddly enough. EU regulations are far slacker than UK ones.
On 16/06/2026 11:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-15 21:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Entirely correct.
On 15/06/2026 20:05, rbowman wrote:
Why spend money on automation when labor is cheap?
Because automation is cheaper?
Picking cherry tomatoes in Spain is paid 80?/day. Morocco, 8?/day.
The only solution for Spain is to automate to compete. Ditch labour. >>>>>
And the Moroccan ones taste better.
Yes, the forbidden chemicals they use make a difference >:-P
We get Moroccan chemicalÿ tomatoes. Not dangerous 'organic' beansprouts
"In 2011, contaminated organic bean sprouts caused a massive and
deadly E. coli outbreak centered in northern Germany. The outbreak
killed over 30 people and sickened more than 3,000 across Europe. It
remains one of the worst foodborne illness epidemics in modern history."
My memory is not what it was, but I think that epidemic did not
originate where they thought.
Spain was accused, causing our farmers huge damage. But:
"Eventually investigators traced the outbreak to contaminated fenugreek sprouts grown at an organic farm in Lower Saxony. The contamination was believed to originate from imported fenugreek seeds, likely from Egypt, although the exact point of contamination was never established with complete certainty."
Now, WHAT to do with all the obsoleted humans ? Nobody
ÿ EVER wants to answer that question. I see vast fields
ÿ of grey Soviet-style housing blocks, long ration lines,
ÿ and then the rations get smaller and smaller. THAT makes
ÿ the 'economic logic' whether you're a 'capitalist' OR
ÿ 'socialist' or anything else. The ultimate conclusion
ÿ will be that we don't NEED 8 billion people, so .....
On 6/16/26 14:09, rbowman wrote:
The US has embraced farm automation. Uncle Remus ain't out in the field
picking cotton anymore; he's collecting welfare and having mostly peaceful >> gatherings.
His 'welfare' will stop soon. NO good plan for
all the obsoleted humans. Actually, it looks
pretty BAD for billions. No 'cyber-paradise',
more like directions to the nearest Soylent Green
factory ........
Strawberries, cherries, olives, even lettuce, these are
sort of "luxury" foods. So, you pay the luxury price
until it finally becomes too high.
Now, WHAT to do with all the obsoleted humans ? Nobody
EVER wants to answer that question. I see vast fields
of grey Soviet-style housing blocks, long ration lines,
and then the rations get smaller and smaller. THAT makes
the 'economic logic' whether you're a 'capitalist' OR
'socialist' or anything else.
The ultimate conclusion
will be that we don't NEED 8 billion people, so .....
On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 23:23:11 -0400, c186282 wrote:
His 'welfare' will stop soon. NO good plan for all the obsoleted
humans. Actually, it looks pretty BAD for billions. No
'cyber-paradise', more like directions to the nearest Soylent Green
factory ........
It's harsh but a sizable tranche of the population has nothing to offer in the 21st century. There used to be jobs a person could take pride in but they're going fast. Some of the jobs sucked but there was the satisfaction
of doing them well. Sort of the John Henry meme where he was faster than
the steam drill.
Yes, hardly an alternative to Centos.
Tumbleweed is okay, so why is Leap an ebola turd?
On 6/17/26 03:20, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 23:23:11 -0400, c186282 wrote:
ÿÿÿ His 'welfare' will stop soon. NO good plan for all the obsoleted
ÿÿÿ humans. Actually, it looks pretty BAD for billions. No
ÿÿÿ 'cyber-paradise', more like directions to the nearest Soylent Green
ÿÿÿ factory ........
It's harsh but a sizable tranche of the population has nothing to
offer in
the 21st century. There used to be jobs a person could take pride in but
they're going fast. Some of the jobs sucked but there was the
satisfaction
of doing them well. Sort of the John Henry meme where he was faster than
the steam drill.
ÿ John Henry is a fair analogy.
ÿ Yea, he barely beat the steam drill ... but
ÿ it KILLED him.
ÿ But NOW we're talking maybe a BILLION+ humans
ÿ whose skill spectrum CANNOT compete with "AI".
ÿ They're just not wired for it, or not smart
ÿ enough, or something ...
ÿ BIZ wants ROBOTS. MUCH easier to deal with on
ÿ MANY levels.
ÿ So, again, WHAT happens to all the obsoleted humans ?
ÿ Seems to be NO plan, viable or not.
ÿ Basically, they Just DIE HORRIBLY.
ÿ Oh, clue, masses of unemployed humans CANNOT BUY
ÿ yer AI-Cheapened Shit. This is where the biz/finance
ÿ paradigm FALLS DOWN HARD.
ÿ But won't show up on the quarterly reports for
ÿ awhile yet .....
On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 19:35:58 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
One trick used by grocery chains is to charge more for the same products
in the poor part of town, since the people there likely don't have cars
or much access to transit.
It's not exactly a free market.
I the '80s there was a coffee shortage, a failed harvest or something. I don't remember the details but I was working in Ft. Wayne and the price of coffee in the supermarkets doubled and there wasn't much of a selection on the shelves.
Oe weekend I want down to Indianapolis and found there was no coffee shortage. Needless to say I stocked up.
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
On 2026-06-17, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Strawberries, cherries, olives, even lettuce, these are
sort of "luxury" foods. So, you pay the luxury price
until it finally becomes too high.
My wife just got back from a shopping trip. One store was
charging over $5 for a head of lettuce - while the others
were selling it for 79 cents.
One trick used by grocery chains is to charge more for the
same products in the poor part of town, since the people
there likely don't have cars or much access to transit.
It's not exactly a free market.
And then there's "dynamic pricing", where different people are
charged different prices, presumably based on the dossier that
the grocers have built on them. Makes you want to pay cash -
at least until facial recognition comes in...
Now, WHAT to do with all the obsoleted humans ? Nobody
EVER wants to answer that question. I see vast fields
of grey Soviet-style housing blocks, long ration lines,
and then the rations get smaller and smaller. THAT makes
the 'economic logic' whether you're a 'capitalist' OR
'socialist' or anything else.
The provincial government here has overridden the planning
departments of numerous local cities in order to ram through
re-zoning for higher density. We're seeing great amounts of
cookie-cutter housing being built, plus increasing numbers
of high-rise towers - none of which is affordable.
The ultimate conclusion
will be that we don't NEED 8 billion people, so .....
Here we're obsessed with population growth, and have built
an entire economic model around it. The only thing that
will make the leaders question whether we need 8 billion
people is the coming Malthusian crash. But even then,
they're going to be OK, so why should they care? More
taxpayers, more consumers to sell to... what's not to like?
On 2026-06-17, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/16/26 14:09, rbowman wrote:
The US has embraced farm automation. Uncle Remus ain't out in the field
picking cotton anymore; he's collecting welfare and having mostly peaceful >>> gatherings.
His 'welfare' will stop soon. NO good plan for
all the obsoleted humans. Actually, it looks
pretty BAD for billions. No 'cyber-paradise',
more like directions to the nearest Soylent Green
factory ........
In today's paper is a picture of a poster at a bus stop that says:
Isn't it brilliant that one man gets to be a
trillionaire instead of everyone having food?
Being in the business section, the photo accompanies an article
talking about what a hero Elon Musk is.
False logic. Typical of the Left. 'money' is not 'wealth'
In today's paper is a picture of a poster at a bus stop that says:
ÿÿÿÿ Isn't it brilliant that one man gets to be a
ÿÿÿÿ trillionaire instead of everyone having food?
Being in the business section, the photo accompanies an article
talking about what a hero Elon Musk is.
ÿ Well, Elon IS good ... don't get all jealous ?
On 18/06/2026 09:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)Its already here.
MAGA is just another Glorious Revolution...
The EU is just another collection of comissariats.
On 2026-06-18 10:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/06/2026 09:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)Its already here.
MAGA is just another Glorious Revolution...
The EU is just another collection of comissariats.
Not even close.
On 18/06/2026 12:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-18 10:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, bang on target
On 18/06/2026 09:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)Its already here.
MAGA is just another Glorious Revolution...
The EU is just another collection of comissariats.
Not even close.
On 2026-06-18 18:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/06/2026 12:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:I don't see Trump mandating a universal salary on the total population,
On 2026-06-18 10:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, bang on target
On 18/06/2026 09:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)Its already here.
MAGA is just another Glorious Revolution...
The EU is just another collection of comissariats.
Not even close.
for ever, since 18 till death.
On 2026-06-18 10:26, c186282 wrote:
On 6/17/26 03:20, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 23:23:11 -0400, c186282 wrote:
ÿÿÿ His 'welfare' will stop soon. NO good plan for all the obsoleted
ÿÿÿ humans. Actually, it looks pretty BAD for billions. No
ÿÿÿ 'cyber-paradise', more like directions to the nearest Soylent Green >>>> ÿÿÿ factory ........
It's harsh but a sizable tranche of the population has nothing to
offer in the 21st century. There used to be jobs a person could
take pride in but they're going fast. Some of the jobs sucked
but there was the satisfaction of doing them well. Sort of the
John Henry meme where he was faster than the steam drill.
ÿ John Henry is a fair analogy.
ÿ Yea, he barely beat the steam drill ... but
ÿ it KILLED him.
ÿ But NOW we're talking maybe a BILLION+ humans
ÿ whose skill spectrum CANNOT compete with "AI".
ÿ They're just not wired for it, or not smart
ÿ enough, or something ...
ÿ BIZ wants ROBOTS. MUCH easier to deal with on
ÿ MANY levels.
ÿ So, again, WHAT happens to all the obsoleted humans ?
ÿ Seems to be NO plan, viable or not.
ÿ Basically, they Just DIE HORRIBLY.
ÿ Oh, clue, masses of unemployed humans CANNOT BUY
ÿ yer AI-Cheapened Shit. This is where the biz/finance
ÿ paradigm FALLS DOWN HARD.
ÿ But won't show up on the quarterly reports for
ÿ awhile yet .....
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)
On 18/06/2026 09:50, c186282 wrote:
ÿ Well, Elon IS good ... don't get all jealous ?
False Logic. Typical of the Right. Success is not ipso facto 'good'
On 6/17/26 15:35, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Here we're obsessed with population growth, and have built
an entire economic model around it. The only thing that
will make the leaders question whether we need 8 billion
people is the coming Malthusian crash. But even then,
they're going to be OK, so why should they care? More
taxpayers, more consumers to sell to... what's not to like?
Ummm ... don't get TOO obsessed with Malthus.
He never factored an expanding economic base
or improved tech into his models properly.
The REAL danger now is "AI" replacing a billion+
humans. Have NEVER seen a plan for dealing with
all those obsolete humans.
Look bad, VERY bad.
On 18/06/2026 17:37, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-18 18:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Neither did the communists or the EU
On 18/06/2026 12:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:I don't see Trump mandating a universal salary on the total
On 2026-06-18 10:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, bang on target
On 18/06/2026 09:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)Its already here.
MAGA is just another Glorious Revolution...
The EU is just another collection of comissariats.
Not even close.
population, for ever, since 18 till death.
On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 18:37:06 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-18 18:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/06/2026 12:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:I don't see Trump mandating a universal salary on the total population,
On 2026-06-18 10:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, bang on target
On 18/06/2026 09:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:Not even close.
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)Its already here.
MAGA is just another Glorious Revolution...
The EU is just another collection of comissariats.
for ever, since 18 till death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ He_who_does_not_work,_neither_shall_he_eat#Soviet_Union
On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 18:26:50 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-18, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-18 10:26, c186282 wrote:
ÿ John Henry is a fair analogy.
ÿ Yea, he barely beat the steam drill ... but it KILLED him.
Yup. But it's the stuff of legends. They killed his body but couldn't
kill his spirit.
There are a lot of versions. In some when John falls dead his wife, Polly Ann, picks up the hammer and finishes the job. 'She drove steel like a
man.' In other versions John has two women. The one dressed in red, or
maybe blue, heads down the tracks and doesn't look back.
On 18/06/2026 09:50, c186282 wrote:
False logic. Typical of the Left. 'money' is not 'wealth'
In today's paper is a picture of a poster at a bus stop that says:
ÿÿÿÿ Isn't it brilliant that one man gets to be a
ÿÿÿÿ trillionaire instead of everyone having food?
Being in the business section, the photo accompanies an article
talking about what a hero Elon Musk is.
ÿÿ Well, Elon IS good ... don't get all jealous ?
False Logic. Typical of the Right. Success is not ipso facto 'good'
On 18/06/2026 12:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-18 10:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, bang on target
On 18/06/2026 09:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)Its already here.
MAGA is just another Glorious Revolution...
The EU is just another collection of comissariats.
Not even close.
On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 20:50:32 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2026-06-18 20:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/06/2026 17:37, Carlos E. R. wrote:So? Theoretical communism is not as implemented by countries.
On 2026-06-18 18:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Neither did the communists or the EU
On 18/06/2026 12:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:I don't see Trump mandating a universal salary on the total
On 2026-06-18 10:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, bang on target
On 18/06/2026 09:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:Not even close.
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >:-)Its already here.
MAGA is just another Glorious Revolution...
The EU is just another collection of comissariats.
population, for ever, since 18 till death.
Looking out the door I see some horses but nary a unicorn.
Why go from one extreme to the other? Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps. It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
On 2026-06-18, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 18/06/2026 09:50, c186282 wrote:
ÿ Well, Elon IS good ... don't get all jealous ?
False Logic. Typical of the Right. Success is not ipso facto 'good'
It depends on your definition of success. I've spent my life
avoiding what many people call "success". I'm doing all right
by my definition, though.
Milford Wolpoff is a paleoanthropologist who prosed a multiregional model rather than the Out of Africa one put forward by Stringer and others. I
may have the wrong locale but I think it was Java. He remarked that a
problem for looking for ancient evidence was you were always digging in somebody's backyard. There are 3,100 people per square mile, the tightest packed island in the world.
On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 10:25:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Being in the business section, the photo accompanies an article
talking about what a hero Elon Musk is.
ÿ Well, Elon IS good ... don't get all jealous ?
False Logic. Typical of the Right. Success is not ipso facto 'good'
Agreed. Making your money by shorting the Bank of England like Soros or running casinos and whorehouse like Adelson isn't good. Speculators and market manipulators are scum.
Developing real products like Musk, even if playing the system, is good.
I'll even gove props to Bezos. I remember when Amazon was books and CDs
and often promised more than they could deliver. I preferred Barnes &
Noble back then since they had what they sold in stock. Many dotcom
ventures failed; Amazon didn't. I'm not a fan but the Walton family also built something.
On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 10:32:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, we need some sort of communism for the future >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Servile_State
ÿ You don't have to agree - but it's true regardless.
On 18/06/2026 19:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Why go from one extreme to the other? Perhaps there's
a middle ground - a non-fanatical form of capitalism,
perhaps. It will take some adjustment, though - ever
since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
Back in the day, concerned conservative capitalists built houses and
schools for their workers, paid for basic medical care and in general realised that a capitalist is a member of society, just like his employees.
The onset of American style corporate capitalism that assigns value only
to cash is somewhat of an anomaly and a mistake.
On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 12:56:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/06/2026 19:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Why go from one extreme to the other? Perhaps there's a middle ground
- a non-fanatical form of capitalism, perhaps. It will take some
adjustment, though - ever since the 1980s, when greed became re-defined
as a virtue,
things have been going downhill.
Back in the day, concerned conservative capitalists built houses and
schools for their workers, paid for basic medical care and in general
realised that a capitalist is a member of society, just like his
employees.
The onset of American style corporate capitalism that assigns value only
to cash is somewhat of an anomaly and a mistake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
Ford, his hero and mentor Edison, and Firestone thought they had been ill used by the 'capitalists' of Wall Street.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_Ship
Ford was idealistic before he turned bitter. War is much more profitable than peace so it was a lost cause.
On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 13:12:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The DNA evidence reveals a massively complex branching and interbreeding
of early homo species
Modern humans comprise DNA from Sapiens Neanderthal and Denisovan..and
there are many other extinct species who may or may not have wandered
out of Africa and set up camp in other places in the world.
And had sex with later arrivals,
Wolpoff's objection to Stringer's original hypothesis was there wasn't
enough time a movement out of Africa 50,000 to 70,000 years ago to explain the worldwide diversity.
by those who couldn't grasp multiregional evolution and thought he meant completely separate evolutionary paths.
https://www.edge.org/conversation/christopher_stringer-rethinking-out-of- africa
Stringer has revised his untenable theory. Like Gould and others there was more politics and wishful thinking than science.
On 18/06/2026 19:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-18, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:No argument there.
On 18/06/2026 09:50, c186282 wrote:
ÿ ÿ Well, Elon IS good ... don't get all jealous ?
False Logic. Typical of the Right. Success is not ipso facto 'good'
It depends on your definition of success.ÿ I've spent my life
avoiding what many people call "success".ÿ I'm doing all right
by my definition, though.
I made enough money to stop having to work for people I didn't like
A late friend felt she had failed because the never ran a FTSE 100 company.
Is Elon a happy man?
On 19/06/2026 00:51, rbowman wrote:
Milford Wolpoff is a paleoanthropologist who prosed a multiregional model
rather than the Out of Africa one put forward by Stringer and others. I
may have the wrong locale but I think it was Java. He remarked that a
problem for looking for ancient evidence was you were always digging in
somebody's backyard. There are 3,100 people per square mile, the tightest
packed island in the world.
The DNA evidence reveals a massively complex branching and interbreeding
of early homo species
On 18/06/2026 20:33, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 10:25:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Being in the business section, the photo accompanies an article
talking about what a hero Elon Musk is.
ÿ ÿ Well, Elon IS good ... don't get all jealous ?
False Logic. Typical of the Right. Success is not ipso facto 'good'
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