Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
For example, if there is a village with 200 inhabitants with a small
shop and a bar, those places need internet in order to be able to
accept plastic card payments. And considering there is not a bank at
the site to get cash to pay, the villagers have to pay with
plastic. Or the visitors.
(Out of curiosity, if Visa and Mastercard cards are common in .es: Is
there no way to process card payments off-line in such towns?)
The card networks moved away from "off-line" card processing long ago.
At this point they (the card networks) likely don't care about
supporting tiny "locations" with only a few hundred folks for accepting
card payments "offline" as the amounts would be such a tiny fraction of their gross, but amount to a huge amount of work, effor, and expense to support.
Couple that with the fact that "offline" processing can provide
additional avenues for attempted or actual fraud and they simply expect merchants to be able to have one of the 'nfc scan terminals' and to be
able to network back to their servers for all the authentication and authorization.
On 2026-06-03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/06/2026 12:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They steal the live catenary from the railway... Sometimes someone
dies. The distribution wires, I have not heard of it. Too high?
We would need harsher laws to protect the railways.
Or higher voltages
Probably less likely, IIRC 25kV was the sweet point for AC
electrification?
On 2026-06-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
For example, if there is a village with 200 inhabitants with a small
shop and a bar, those places need internet in order to be able to
accept plastic card payments. And considering there is not a bank at
the site to get cash to pay, the villagers have to pay with
plastic. Or the visitors.
(Out of curiosity, if Visa and Mastercard cards are common in .es: Is
there no way to process card payments off-line in such towns?)
On 2026-06-03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/06/2026 12:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They steal the live catenary from the railway... Sometimes someone
dies. The distribution wires, I have not heard of it. Too high?
We would need harsher laws to protect the railways.
Or higher voltages
Probably less likely, IIRC 25kV was the sweet point for AC
electrification?
On 6/2/2026 10:10 PM, Rich wrote:
InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected
to bear.
Also true. They supply the original battery, but you get to pay to
replace it when it wears out over time. And both wear out over time.
The lead acid from being kept charged, the D cells from self discharge.
Worse! They don't even supply the original battery! I had to buy my own
as well as the unit. And most people don't even bother and then are surprised when their phone doesn't work when the power goes out.
Into Covid a neighbor went wild with lawn tools and SHREDDED
my spliced wire. After two+ weeks I finally found SOMEONE at
Comcast who actually understood when I said the PHYSICAL
CABLE was broken. They kept wanting to test my Box. NOT
the problem at all. Guess it was Page #2 in their Hindi
diagnostic manual.
The ultimate solution is of course a house wired for DC power fed to USB style outlets with a big $10,000 battery, in addition to normal mains.
You simply feed your LV kit off that and Robert is a relative.
Then when renewable energy takes your country's grid down you can still complain to politicians
On 2026-06-03 13:48, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-06-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
For example, if there is a village with 200 inhabitants with a small
shop and a bar, those places need internet in order to be able to
accept plastic card payments. And considering there is not a bank at
the site to get cash to pay, the villagers have to pay with
plastic. Or the visitors.
(Out of curiosity, if Visa and Mastercard cards are common in .es: Is
there no way to process card payments off-line in such towns?)
Apparently not. Maybe because the majority are debit cards, not credit
cards. But I have seen nobody with that paper thing that was used to
print a charge paper with the relief letters/numbers on the
cards. Cards no longer have relief lettering.
I asked ChatGPT, so take the answer with a grain of salt.
Q: Can payments be done with credit or debit cards, while off line?
Say, pay on a small remote restaurant that has intermitent internet,
and doesn't work "now".
A: Yes, **sometimes**, but it depends on the card terminal, the card
network, the amount, and the merchant's setup.
Traditionally, card payments could be processed in **offline mode**:
* The terminal stores the transaction locally.
* The customer leaves with the goods or meal.
* When connectivity returns, the terminal uploads the transactions for authorization and settlement.
This is still possible in some circumstances, but it's much less
common than it used to be because fraud controls are stricter.
For a small remote restaurant in Spain today, several scenarios are
possible:
1. **Terminal supports offline transactions**
* The payment may be accepted even without an internet connection.
* The restaurant assumes some risk because the transaction could
later be declined.
2. **Terminal requires online authorization**
* The payment is refused until connectivity returns.
* This is increasingly common.
3. **Card and terminal support EMV offline authentication**
* The chip can prove the card is genuine without contacting the bank.
* However, this does not necessarily guarantee that the account has
funds available.
4. **Restaurant uses a mobile-data terminal**
* Sometimes the problem is local Wi-Fi, but the terminal has its
own SIM card and can still process payments.
* Other times both connections are unavailable.
In very remote areas, merchants often have practical workarounds:
* waiting for the connection to come back,
* asking for cash,
* manually recording card details (much rarer now and often discouraged),
* or processing the transaction later if their payment provider allows it.
One thing many people don't realize is that contactless payments can occasionally appear to work "offline" even in normal conditions. The
card and terminal may approve a transaction locally and only later synchronize with the bank. The rules for when this is allowed are set
by the card issuer and payment network.
So the answer is: **yes, card payments can sometimes be made while
offline, but whether a particular restaurant can do it depends on its
payment terminal configuration and the payment provider's rules.**
Many modern terminals will simply refuse the transaction if they
cannot reach the authorization network.
On 2026-06-03 13:31, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-06-03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/06/2026 12:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They steal the live catenary from the railway... Sometimes someone
dies. The distribution wires, I have not heard of it. Too high?
We would need harsher laws to protect the railways.
Or higher voltages
Probably less likely, IIRC 25kV was the sweet point for AC
electrification?
He is on a mood. Don't listen :-)
On 2026-06-03, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/06/2026 12:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
They steal the live catenary from the railway... Sometimes someone
dies. The distribution wires, I have not heard of it. Too high?
We would need harsher laws to protect the railways.
Or higher voltages
Probably less likely, IIRC 25kV was the sweet point for AC
electrification?
To me, the real scum are the ones who steal ground wires,
leaving everything a hazard for innocent bystanders.
On 2026-06-03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-03 13:48, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-06-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
For example, if there is a village with 200 inhabitants with a small
shop and a bar, those places need internet in order to be able to
accept plastic card payments. And considering there is not a bank at
the site to get cash to pay, the villagers have to pay with
plastic. Or the visitors.
(Out of curiosity, if Visa and Mastercard cards are common in .es: Is
there no way to process card payments off-line in such towns?)
Apparently not. Maybe because the majority are debit cards, not credit
cards. But I have seen nobody with that paper thing that was used to
print a charge paper with the relief letters/numbers on the
cards. Cards no longer have relief lettering.
This isn't about relief lettering at all, but whether the card itself requires on-line transactions, where (probably among other things) funds
are normally expected to be guaranteed as available to approve the transaction. This used to be the key difference between Visa Debit and
Visa Electron, for example.
I asked ChatGPT, so take the answer with a grain of salt.
Q: Can payments be done with credit or debit cards, while off line?
Say, pay on a small remote restaurant that has intermitent internet,
and doesn't work "now".
A: Yes, **sometimes**, but it depends on the card terminal, the card
network, the amount, and the merchant's setup.
I've also heard many years ago of merchants possibly setting payment terminals to require on-line transactions, even for normally off-line
cards.
Traditionally, card payments could be processed in **offline mode**:
* The terminal stores the transaction locally.
* The customer leaves with the goods or meal.
* When connectivity returns, the terminal uploads the transactions for
authorization and settlement.
While I was mentioning this in the context of lack of network
connectivity, unless I'm mistaken off-line transactions also happen in
the presence of network connectivity - although I'm not sure of what
details that entails more precisely, besides faster transaction
approval?
This is still possible in some circumstances, but it's much less
common than it used to be because fraud controls are stricter.
This is what's puzzling me now, given both Visa and Mastercard actually
did away with their on-line cards - or is this because the off-line
cards have changed and now act more like on-line cards?
For a small remote restaurant in Spain today, several scenarios are
possible:
1. **Terminal supports offline transactions**
* The payment may be accepted even without an internet connection.
* The restaurant assumes some risk because the transaction could
later be declined.
2. **Terminal requires online authorization**
* The payment is refused until connectivity returns.
* This is increasingly common.
3. **Card and terminal support EMV offline authentication**
* The chip can prove the card is genuine without contacting the bank.
* However, this does not necessarily guarantee that the account has
funds available.
4. **Restaurant uses a mobile-data terminal**
* Sometimes the problem is local Wi-Fi, but the terminal has its
own SIM card and can still process payments.
* Other times both connections are unavailable.
In very remote areas, merchants often have practical workarounds:
* waiting for the connection to come back,
* asking for cash,
* manually recording card details (much rarer now and often discouraged),
* or processing the transaction later if their payment provider allows it. >>
One thing many people don't realize is that contactless payments can
occasionally appear to work "offline" even in normal conditions. The
card and terminal may approve a transaction locally and only later
synchronize with the bank. The rules for when this is allowed are set
by the card issuer and payment network.
I think that's not just appearance, that's literally an off-line card transaction?
So the answer is: **yes, card payments can sometimes be made while
offline, but whether a particular restaurant can do it depends on its
payment terminal configuration and the payment provider's rules.**
Many modern terminals will simply refuse the transaction if they
cannot reach the authorization network.
This also puzzles me, because I was under the impression credit cards
have been expected to allow off-line transactions. (And, after all,
being *credit* cards, allowing transactions without sufficient funds
would be a - or perhaps *the* - feature?)
On 2026-06-03, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Into Covid a neighbor went wild with lawn tools and SHREDDED
my spliced wire. After two+ weeks I finally found SOMEONE at
Comcast who actually understood when I said the PHYSICAL
CABLE was broken. They kept wanting to test my Box. NOT
the problem at all. Guess it was Page #2 in their Hindi
diagnostic manual.
BTDT. There was construction going on across the street and a
dump truck tore out the fiber connection from the pole across
the street to our house. It took days to find someone who
understood the concept of physical damage to the wiring.
The possibility didn't seem to be anywhere in their scripts.
During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone
coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively
near a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator.
Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure:
being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the
elevator to the next floor and open the door.
On 2026-06-03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone
coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively
near a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator.
Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure:
being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the
elevator to the next floor and open the door.
Not the issue you're mentioning, but: I propose elevators get relabeled
as "vertically-moving Faraday cages".
On 6/3/26 00:27, InterLinked wrote:
On 6/2/2026 10:46 PM, Rich wrote:
In my case, I moved my Verizon phone number to voip.ms (a VOIP
provider).˙ Instead of, IIRC, about $45/month at the time for Verizon
POTS service I pay the VOIP provider about $2/month.˙ That is for
"metered VOIP", so all calls incur a per minute charge (something like
$0.001/minute, i.e.˙ so small as to be nearly zero).˙ But I can call my
next door neighbor, or someone in Hawaii or Alaska (very long way away)
for the same $0.001/minute.˙ They do offer an 'unmetered' plan as well,
but it runs something like $15/month or $19/month, and I seldom ever
make or receive phone calls, so paying for 'unmetered' just didn't make
sense in my case.
But this is conflating with regulated facilities based phone service
with unregulated over the top services. Also, they are not mutually exclusive. I have over 70 phone numbers myself through IP-based CLECs
and thousands of minutes of call volume flow monthly through various Asterisk systems of mine for me and other folks. But I still keep the regulated POTS line because it serves a fundamentally different purpose. VoIP is great for cheap phone calls that are fine if they are best- effort, drop a few packets, etc. etc. Relying on "cheap" stuff for life/ death situations is a different matter.
˙ OK - "unlimited free" may NOT be so 'realistic'. Sending
˙ info COSTS in many ways. Ruin that and you've ruined yer
˙ whole comm system (or have to support it with ridiculous
˙ 'socialistic' means).
Quality is another factor. Verizon's 5c/min long-distance plan is TDM- based, very good quality that is hard to match with VoIP services. I
don't use it much, but I will often use it if I know I'm calling another POTS line. If I'm calling a VoIP or wireless number, then it's not worth the cost since the quality will suck anyways, and I send the call
through a VoIP carrier.
˙ "Quality" for digital voice/data comms WAS bad - but
˙ so was the TECH.
˙ Now (using vastly more CPU/MEM/GPUs) it's most always
˙ gonna be very good. VOIP and related are now very
˙ decent - very low latency and high quality. TOOK awhile.
I realize that most people these days don't care about voice
and˙ are quite happy with poor quality VoIP services or cell
phones. I think a lot of people have forgotten or don't even
know what good quality phone calls even sound like.
˙ Well, "poor" quality now was "Just GREAT" quality even
˙ 10-15 years ago.
˙ Also, Gen-Z/A2 are AFRAID to talk to actual humans ...
˙ not sure why but it's documented. They'll text the
˙ bartender rather than call-out an order. Worrisome.
˙ Socially decompositional. Soon they'll even be afraid
˙ to text ...... then it's ALL Done. All Fall Down
˙ Go Boom. Vlad/Xi will be delighted - most Westerners
˙ socially/psych paralyzed, unable to cooperate in
˙ real time with anyone on any subject.
On 2026-06-03, Rich wrote:
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
For example, if there is a village with 200 inhabitants with a small
shop and a bar, those places need internet in order to be able to
accept plastic card payments. And considering there is not a bank at
the site to get cash to pay, the villagers have to pay with
plastic. Or the visitors.
(Out of curiosity, if Visa and Mastercard cards are common in .es: Is
there no way to process card payments off-line in such towns?)
The card networks moved away from "off-line" card processing long ago.
... wait, then why did these two axe precisely the "on-line" cards -
Electron and Maestro? I thought they decided to *prefer*
"off-line" processing.
At this point they (the card networks) likely don't care about
supporting tiny "locations" with only a few hundred folks for
accepting card payments "offline" as the amounts would be such a
tiny fraction of their gross, but amount to a huge amount of work,
effor, and expense to support.
Aren't "credit" cards usually "off-line"? Or that changed?
Couple that with the fact that "offline" processing can provide
additional avenues for attempted or actual fraud and they simply expect
merchants to be able to have one of the 'nfc scan terminals' and to be
able to network back to their servers for all the authentication and
authorization.
I'm not so sure about fraud, I'd not be surprised if magstripes, where
still present, or the optionality of PIN allowed more fraud than
smartcard "off-line" transactions.
On 2026-06-03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-03 13:48, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-06-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
For example, if there is a village with 200 inhabitants with a small
shop and a bar, those places need internet in order to be able to
accept plastic card payments. And considering there is not a bank at
the site to get cash to pay, the villagers have to pay with
plastic. Or the visitors.
(Out of curiosity, if Visa and Mastercard cards are common in .es: Is
there no way to process card payments off-line in such towns?)
Apparently not. Maybe because the majority are debit cards, not credit
cards. But I have seen nobody with that paper thing that was used to
print a charge paper with the relief letters/numbers on the
cards. Cards no longer have relief lettering.
This isn't about relief lettering at all, but whether the card itself requires on-line transactions, where (probably among other things) funds
are normally expected to be guaranteed as available to approve the transaction. This used to be the key difference between Visa Debit and
Visa Electron, for example.
This is still possible in some circumstances, but it's much less
common than it used to be because fraud controls are stricter.
This is what's puzzling me now, given both Visa and Mastercard actually
did away with their on-line cards - or is this because the off-line
cards have changed and now act more like on-line cards?
So the answer is: **yes, card payments can sometimes be made while
offline, but whether a particular restaurant can do it depends on its
payment terminal configuration and the payment provider's rules.**
Many modern terminals will simply refuse the transaction if they
cannot reach the authorization network.
This also puzzles me, because I was under the impression credit cards
have been expected to allow off-line transactions. (And, after all,
being *credit* cards, allowing transactions without sufficient funds
would be a - or perhaps *the* - feature?)
On 2026-06-03 04:13, Rich wrote:
Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> wrote:
On 2026-06-01, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
On 6/1/2026 2:30 PM, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-01 05:20, Rich wrote:
What could happen is mandating the router or ONT have a battery
backup
included, or at least optional. As simple as installing a bunch of AA >>>>>> batteries.
Yep, that's already what Verizon does with their FIOS service.˙ One
gets either a lead acid battery (UPS style battery) that will power >>>>> the
ONT for "some time" on a power fail, or one gets a rather large box
that holds something like 12 D sized alkaline cell batteries as the
"backup power" should mains be out.˙ I'm not sure if the different
types arrive based on price level purchased, or just on "previously, >>>>> they privided this, now they provide that".
The lead acid is the older variety and the D cell is the newer one. I
had to buy the older kind on eBay as they are not really available
anymore. Neither is sufficient, you can get 8-24 hours of standby power >>>> with these kinds, but that's woefully inadequate in an extended outage, >>>> and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected
to bear.
Verizon's FIOS/fiber successors (at least on the Verizon ->
Frontier -> Ziply path) no longer provide for any battery backup.
The new ziply ONTs have nothing for any duration longer than
maybe a second (likely at most a fraction of a second).˙ A
customer can add a UPS to power the ONT, but it's anyone's guess
whether Ziply now maintains power to even any neighborhood
concentration equipment or "central office" facilities.
Damn, so they've completly given up on even giving the impression that
the replacement fiber might appear to be some level of equivalent to
the old POTS network.
And you do make a fair point.˙ If Ziply's delivering "no backup by
default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the
bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the
concentrators or central offices either.˙ So even a customer who
invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at
the other end of the long thin glass tube.
During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone
coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively near
a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator.
Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure: being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the elevator
to the next floor and open the door.
On 2026-06-03 04:10, Rich wrote:
InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
On 6/1/2026 2:30 PM, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-01 05:20, Rich wrote:
and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected
to bear.
Also true.˙ They supply the original battery, but you get to pay to
replace it when it wears out over time.˙ And both wear out over time.
The lead acid from being kept charged, the D cells from self discharge.
True lead acid batteries (not gel, ie, not maintenance free) last way longer. 5 years easily, maybe 10.
On 6/3/2026 8:01 PM, Nuno Silva wrote:
Not the issue you're mentioning, but: I propose elevators get relabeled
as "vertically-moving Faraday cages".
Well, historically (even now), elevators are generally required to have telephones in them for emergency.
On 6/3/2026 3:26 AM, c186282 wrote:
On 6/3/26 00:27, InterLinked wrote:
Quality is another factor. Verizon's 5c/min long-distance plan is TDM-
based, very good quality that is hard to match with VoIP services. I
don't use it much, but I will often use it if I know I'm calling another >>> POTS line. If I'm calling a VoIP or wireless number, then it's not worth >>> the cost since the quality will suck anyways, and I send the call
through a VoIP carrier.
˙ "Quality" for digital voice/data comms WAS bad - but
˙ so was the TECH.
˙ Now (using vastly more CPU/MEM/GPUs) it's most always
˙ gonna be very good. VOIP and related are now very
˙ decent - very low latency and high quality. TOOK awhile.
They are better, and can be basically almost as good as TDM, but TDM was designed for realtime data, and IP was not. Of course, it will vary by
the quality of your IP link. TDM is usually either perfect or near
perfect, maybe a few frame slips, or just not working - there is no
packet loss, jitter, latency, etc. TDM is consistent. IP can vary.
I realize that most people these days don't care about voice
and˙ are quite happy with poor quality VoIP services or cell
phones. I think a lot of people have forgotten or don't even
know what good quality phone calls even sound like.
˙ Well, "poor" quality now was "Just GREAT" quality even
˙ 10-15 years ago.
Nope, you've got it backwards. The late 90s and early 2000s were
probably the peak of voice quality in the phone network, with
competitive TDM-based long-distance providers. With things since moving
en masse to wireless and IP, we've experienced a significant decline in average call quality from which we will, sadly, likely never recover.
˙ Also, Gen-Z/A2 are AFRAID to talk to actual humans ...
˙ not sure why but it's documented. They'll text the
˙ bartender rather than call-out an order. Worrisome.
˙ Socially decompositional. Soon they'll even be afraid
˙ to text ...... then it's ALL Done. All Fall Down
˙ Go Boom. Vlad/Xi will be delighted - most Westerners
˙ socially/psych paralyzed, unable to cooperate in
˙ real time with anyone on any subject.
Yeah, that's probably related as well. Young people so rarely talk on
the phone, and are used to garbage quality phone calls, that they just
have no concept of what phone calls are SUPPOSED to sound like anymore.
Most of the people I talk with are either on POTS or decent VoIP, but sometimes I do talk to people who are using cell phones, and the quality SUCKS and makes my head hurt. Of course, you can always tell when
someone is using a cell phone or poor-quality VoIP, it just sounds bad.
Mag stripes disappeared one or two cargs ago on my cards. They no
longer have one on the card. You either do "chip" or you do "NFC" but
no more mag stripe. And the numbers have not been embossed and raised
for even longer than that, so the really old carbon copy paper slips
have been long gone for what feels like forever.
On 2026-06-03 08:12, c186282 wrote:
On 6/2/26 22:25, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-01 19:36, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-01 07:07, c186282 wrote:
On 5/31/26 23:50, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
...
Well, if the digital stuff fries they can STILL manually
connect at least a sub-portion of the copper.
Manually? You need an expert to go in the exchange and
rewire the cables to connect two phones permanently. Maybe,
because the batteries are the wrong voltage. Certainly no
dialing.
I've not even pointed out to him yet that in most of those
"bundles" of 4000 pairs, that there's only about 8 or 10
different colors (certianly not 4000 colors).˙ So "working
out" which red/black, from the 10,000 red/black pairs that
terminate at the switch, connect to "joe's pizza" is a non-
trivial job for the non-expert.
Heh, absolutely.
Although you can find the cable at the... I don't know the
English name, a rack of wire wrapping pins. 4000 at one side,
connecting to 4000 at the other side which go to the actual
switch. These are labelled, but you need to know the system. I
have not wired these, so here I have to guess, but the phone
number is not written here. Rather wire number of the bundle on
the one side, and equipment number on the other side. You need a
table to find out which is which, possibly computerized,
possibly printed and stored in large binders.
Given how many lines terminated in any given central office
building, there has to be a labeling system.˙ But it won't be
something that anyone can just walk into and begin connecting
random lengths of spare copper pairs onto to "reconnect" a small
portion of customers to each other.˙ And yes, no dialing.˙ You get
connected to your Aunt Edna two blocks over, but you two are the
only two who get to talk (unless the "fixer" starts wiring a party
line, but then too many on a party line makes for a mess too).
Expecting that some lineman's going to be able to go cross
connecting folks who want to talk (even if they wanted to all call
the local hospital) to the destination to which they want to talk
to, by manually wiring them up is rather insane.˙ It's just not
feasable to do manually anymore, if the switching computers that
usually do it are fried then there's lots of useless copper pairs
connecting to dead phones.
Hmmmm ... by the 90s+ ... the number of connected customers surely
exceeded the number of practical wire pairs almost everywhere. SOME
kind of multiplexing scheme would have been absolutely required.
NOT fully versed in that alas, a 'transitional' period, the exact
what/where/why/how is kinda obscure, hidden behind corporate
firewalls. DID work, but EXACTLY how is kinda obscure/proprietary/
guessed.
By the 90's, it was digital exchanges. The working I explained in
another post, it is not multiplexing. Simple concept, the difficulty is
the scale, and the details.
Here by the end of the 90's there remained a few (a hundred?) of electromechanical exchanges, some hybrid.
Redoing a big exchange back from digital to electromechanical is a huge
task, and requires expert knowledge that no longer exists. It would have
to be reinvented. Assuming there is room in the building.
On 03/06/2026 03:13, Rich wrote:
And you do make a fair point.˙ If Ziply's delivering "no backup by
default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the
bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the
concentrators or central offices either.˙ So even a customer who
invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at
the other end of the long thin glass tube.
Have you any idea how remote these are?
Typically 40-70km, and they don't have that much kit either.
The whole last 30 miles is essentially passive...until
you get to CPE.
And the backhaul it relies upon after that is the same as copper based signals anyway.
In short it should be *more* reliable in a power cut apart from the CPE.
If you want redundancy buy your won bloody batteries
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-03 13:48, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-06-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
For example, if there is a village with 200 inhabitants with a small >>>>> shop and a bar, those places need internet in order to be able to
accept plastic card payments. And considering there is not a bank at >>>>> the site to get cash to pay, the villagers have to pay with
plastic. Or the visitors.
(Out of curiosity, if Visa and Mastercard cards are common in .es: Is
there no way to process card payments off-line in such towns?)
Apparently not. Maybe because the majority are debit cards, not credit
cards. But I have seen nobody with that paper thing that was used to
print a charge paper with the relief letters/numbers on the
cards. Cards no longer have relief lettering.
This isn't about relief lettering at all, but whether the card itself
requires on-line transactions, where (probably among other things) funds
are normally expected to be guaranteed as available to approve the
transaction. This used to be the key difference between Visa Debit and
Visa Electron, for example.
In the US, both Debit and Credit cards work very similarily (from the customer using the card point of view) other than Debit cards often
require entry of a PIN as part of the transaction.
But both have limited to no usefulness without network connectivity to
"run the purchase" unless (as ChatGPT said) the merchants agreement
with the network allows for the merchant to collect the card info and
only later process each transaction. And I would presume that if the merchant's agreement allows the "collect info, process over network
later" mode, that the agreement also foists a significant amount of the transaction risk onto the merchant as well, further discuraging many
from choosing this route.
This is still possible in some circumstances, but it's much less
common than it used to be because fraud controls are stricter.
This is what's puzzling me now, given both Visa and Mastercard actually
did away with their on-line cards - or is this because the off-line
cards have changed and now act more like on-line cards?
Not sure what you mean by Visa or Mastercard "on-line cards".
As to standard credit cards, they are, for all intents and purposes,
always processed anymore via instant network transaction through the
payment rails to the issuing bank. No one writes down or otherwise
records anything from the cards. One either "chips" or "NFC" taps the
card, the machine pops "approved" or "denied", and if approved, the transaction is already listed in your account at the point you see
"approved" on the charge card terminal.
So the answer is: **yes, card payments can sometimes be made while
offline, but whether a particular restaurant can do it depends on its
payment terminal configuration and the payment provider's rules.**
Many modern terminals will simply refuse the transaction if they
cannot reach the authorization network.
This also puzzles me, because I was under the impression credit cards
have been expected to allow off-line transactions. (And, after all,
being *credit* cards, allowing transactions without sufficient funds
would be a - or perhaps *the* - feature?)
Not from the issuing banks perspective. Their "fraud detection
algorithms" work by seeing the transactions as they come over the rails
(not by batch processing them 12 hours later). So effectively, even if credit cards still might officially support a "no network use" mode, it
is all but never used anymore.
On 6/3/2026 8:01 PM, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-06-03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone
coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively
near a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator.
Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure:
being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the
elevator to the next floor and open the door.
Not the issue you're mentioning, but: I propose elevators get relabeled
as "vertically-moving Faraday cages".
Well, historically (even now), elevators are generally required to have telephones in them for emergency.
Of course with everything going to pot now (no pun intended), there's no longer any expectation that that phone will even work in a power outage
when the elevator goes out.
But that's "business as usual", who cares? Not the regulators...
On 6/3/26 05:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-03 04:13, Rich wrote:
Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> wrote:
On 2026-06-01, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
During the energy zero in Spain, I found that I had mobile phone
coverage the full time. Not many people did, but I live relatively
near a big exchange with big batteries and probably a generator.
Something scares me more than no internet during a power failure:
being trapped in an elevator. Not many provide a safety to drop the
elevator to the next floor and open the door.
˙ NO safe way to do that with conventional motor/cable
˙ elevator design.
On 6/3/26 05:49, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-03 04:10, Rich wrote:
InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
On 6/1/2026 2:30 PM, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-01 05:20, Rich wrote:
and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected
to bear.
Also true.˙ They supply the original battery, but you get to pay to
replace it when it wears out over time.˙ And both wear out over time.
The lead acid from being kept charged, the D cells from self discharge.
True lead acid batteries (not gel, ie, not maintenance free) last way
longer. 5 years easily, maybe 10.
˙ Yep ... 'maint free' do NOT have as much lifespan.
˙ The old Edison nickle-iron batteries (KOH electrolyte)
˙ are still popular for home PV systems. They can last
˙ a very long time - but YOU have to check/fill the
˙ electrolyte every so often. I suppose that COULD be
˙ automated for cheap these days.
˙ And Edison batteries don't EXPLODE like lithiums.
On 2026-06-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The ultimate solution is of course a house wired for DC power fed to USB
style outlets with a big $10,000 battery, in addition to normal mains.
You simply feed your LV kit off that and Robert is a relative.
Then when renewable energy takes your country's grid down you can still
complain to politicians
And they can still ignore you.
Yeah, that's probably related as well. Young people so rarely talk on
the phone, and are used to garbage quality phone calls, that they just
have no concept of what phone calls are SUPPOSED to sound like anymore.
On 6/3/26 06:03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-03 08:12, c186282 wrote:
On 6/2/26 22:25, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-01 19:36, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-01 07:07, c186282 wrote:
On 5/31/26 23:50, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
...
Well, if the digital stuff fries they can STILL manually
connect at least a sub-portion of the copper.
Manually? You need an expert to go in the exchange and
rewire the cables to connect two phones permanently. Maybe,
because the batteries are the wrong voltage. Certainly no
dialing.
I've not even pointed out to him yet that in most of those
"bundles" of 4000 pairs, that there's only about 8 or 10
different colors (certianly not 4000 colors).˙ So "working
out" which red/black, from the 10,000 red/black pairs that
terminate at the switch, connect to "joe's pizza" is a non-
trivial job for the non-expert.
Heh, absolutely.
Although you can find the cable at the... I don't know the
English name, a rack of wire wrapping pins. 4000 at one side,
connecting to 4000 at the other side which go to the actual
switch. These are labelled, but you need to know the system. I
have not wired these, so here I have to guess, but the phone
number is not written here. Rather wire number of the bundle on
the one side, and equipment number on the other side. You need a
table to find out which is which, possibly computerized,
possibly printed and stored in large binders.
Given how many lines terminated in any given central office
building, there has to be a labeling system.˙ But it won't be
something that anyone can just walk into and begin connecting
random lengths of spare copper pairs onto to "reconnect" a small
portion of customers to each other.˙ And yes, no dialing.˙ You get
connected to your Aunt Edna two blocks over, but you two are the
only two who get to talk (unless the "fixer" starts wiring a party
line, but then too many on a party line makes for a mess too).
Expecting that some lineman's going to be able to go cross
connecting folks who want to talk (even if they wanted to all call
the local hospital) to the destination to which they want to talk
to, by manually wiring them up is rather insane.˙ It's just not
feasable to do manually anymore, if the switching computers that
usually do it are fried then there's lots of useless copper pairs
connecting to dead phones.
Hmmmm ... by the 90s+ ... the number of connected customers surely
exceeded the number of practical wire pairs almost everywhere. SOME
kind of multiplexing scheme would have been absolutely required.
NOT fully versed in that alas, a 'transitional' period, the exact
what/where/why/how is kinda obscure, hidden behind corporate
firewalls. DID work, but EXACTLY how is kinda obscure/proprietary/
guessed.
By the 90's, it was digital exchanges. The working I explained in
another post, it is not multiplexing. Simple concept, the difficulty
is the scale, and the details.
˙ Wasn't digital EVERYWHERE. Maybe in larger cities.
˙ 80s ... much more spotty - but they HAD to find ways
˙ to do more with a limited number of pairs. This is
˙ the kinda 'invisible', 'hybrid', period, mid 70s to
˙ mid 80s, I refer to.
Here by the end of the 90's there remained a few (a hundred?) of
electromechanical exchanges, some hybrid.
Redoing a big exchange back from digital to electromechanical is a huge
task, and requires expert knowledge that no longer exists. It would have
to be reinvented. Assuming there is room in the building.
˙ As a kid, 60s, I saw some of those electromechanical
˙ tubes full of contact disks working. Super cool !
˙ HOPE they saved a few for museum displays. Hell,
˙ I'd BUY one as a 'kinetic art' piece !
Note - USA - there are considerable fraud/BS *protection*
laws covering Credit Cards.
There are NOT for direct bank xfers.
MANY now DEMAND direct bank routing numbers for
their services. Looked into T-Mobile/Verizon ...
they both wanted direct xfer. Easier for THEM,
but big potential disaster for ME.
And, no matter their claims, Vlad/Xi/Kim/etc
CAN cut into their 'safe' systems like a hot
knife thru butter and steal all yer numbers.
MAY have to set up a 'tiny acct' just for
direct xfers. ONLY give out that number.
Would still have to check it every few
days alas ... what a pain !
Couple that with the fact that "offline" processing can providefew places are out of 2G or broadband range
additional avenues for attempted or actual fraud and they simply expect merchants to be able to have one of the 'nfc scan terminals' and to be
able to network back to their servers for all the authentication and authorization.
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:And it is more vulnerable that fibre anyway
On 6/2/26 06:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/06/2026 07:58, c186282 wrote:
and Satanic coup those WON'T get at the satellites.
wanna bet yer life on that? Bhwahahaha...
As mentioned somewhere, you can still do basic TELEGRAPHY over
copper pairs. That's very robust 1860 tech. Hey, worst case ...
we'd still have SOMETHING.
Yes, but first you need a "copper pair" connecting the two points
between which you wish to communicate. And today, those bespoke copper
pairs no longer exist (most have been replaced with thin glass strands
over which laser light is transmitted, which won't allow for "basic telegraphy").
So you'd have to start by stringing miles upon miles of copper pairs
between each location that you wanted to communicate. That's a massive undertaking, which has to happen *before* you can communicate via basic telegraphy.
On 2026-06-04, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Mag stripes disappeared one or two cargs ago on my cards. They no
longer have one on the card. You either do "chip" or you do "NFC" but
no more mag stripe. And the numbers have not been embossed and raised
for even longer than that, so the really old carbon copy paper slips
have been long gone for what feels like forever.
My newly-renewed credit card arrived last week, and it has both
a mag stripe and raised numbers. On the other hand, on my latest
bank card, which I use for debit transfers, the numbers are not
raised. Go figure.
Rich wrote:
In the US, both Debit and Credit cards work very similarily (from the
customer using the card point of view) other than Debit cards often
require entry of a PIN as part of the transaction.
Last time I was there (in 2002) all my cards were chip and PIN, but
all payments still used magstripe, also there was the alien concept of
having to press a credit or debit button first, but sometimes I had to
press the "wrong" button for the type of card to get it to work ...
But in an energy zero as happened in Spain, neighbours had to walk or
drive to the office (or fire department) to report that there were
people caught on this or that building.
And Edison batteries don't EXPLODE like lithiums.
Lead acid do: they release hydrogen. I exploded one when I was a teenager.
On 6/3/26 06:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/06/2026 03:13, Rich wrote:
And you do make a fair point.˙ If Ziply's delivering "no backup by
default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the
bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the
concentrators or central offices either.˙ So even a customer who
invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at
the other end of the long thin glass tube.
Have you any idea how remote these are?
Typically 40-70km, and they don't have that much kit either.
The whole last 30 miles is essentially passive...until
you get to CPE.
And the backhaul it relies upon after that is the same as copper based
signals anyway.
In short it should be *more* reliable in a power cut apart from the CPE.
If you want redundancy buy your won bloody batteries
˙ We do.
˙ Alas your "more reliable" fiber ... HOW much "more"
˙ in a disaster situation ? Never seen it quantified.
˙ Claims - but no numbers, no field data.
˙ When that big hurricane pushed up into the central USA
˙ all towers/fiber/whatever went DOWN, pretty fast, TOO
˙ fast ... a lot of people perished because they could
˙ not even call for help. Authorities had to scrounge
˙ up a lot of sat-phones/StarLink quick. Wasn't quick
˙ enough.
˙ Maybe you live in some magical place where nothing
˙ serious ever happens ???
On 2026-06-04 08:19, c186282 wrote:
Note - USA - there are considerable fraud/BS *protection*
laws covering Credit Cards.
There are NOT for direct bank xfers.
MANY now DEMAND direct bank routing numbers for
their services. Looked into T-Mobile/Verizon ...
they both wanted direct xfer. Easier for THEM,
but big potential disaster for ME.
And, no matter their claims, Vlad/Xi/Kim/etc
CAN cut into their 'safe' systems like a hot
knife thru butter and steal all yer numbers.
MAY have to set up a 'tiny acct' just for
direct xfers. ONLY give out that number.
Would still have to check it every few
days alas ... what a pain !
In Spain, all subscription services work by direct bank payments. You
can not have electricity or water or gas at home without that system,
plain simple.
Of course there are protective laws.
Rich wrote:
In the US, both Debit and Credit cards work very similarily (from the
customer using the card point of view) other than Debit cards often
require entry of a PIN as part of the transaction.
Last time I was there (in 2002) all my cards were chip and PIN, but all payments still used magstripe, also there was the alien concept of
having to press a credit or debit button first, but sometimes I had to
press the "wrong" button for the type of card to get it to work ...
On 2026-06-03, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Into Covid a neighbor went wild with lawn tools and SHREDDED
my spliced wire. After two+ weeks I finally found SOMEONE at
Comcast who actually understood when I said the PHYSICAL
CABLE was broken. They kept wanting to test my Box. NOT
the problem at all. Guess it was Page #2 in their Hindi
diagnostic manual.
BTDT. There was construction going on across the street and a
dump truck tore out the fiber connection from the pole across
the street to our house. It took days to find someone who
understood the concept of physical damage to the wiring.
The possibility didn't seem to be anywhere in their scripts.
On 04/06/2026 06:03, c186282 wrote:
On 6/3/26 06:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Depends on te disaster. 100% OK in floods., Not so much earthquakes.
On 03/06/2026 03:13, Rich wrote:
And you do make a fair point.˙ If Ziply's delivering "no backup by
default" ONT's, it is very likely some MBA at Ziply's also had the
bright idea to save some coin by not providing any backup power on the >>>> concentrators or central offices either.˙ So even a customer who
invested in a UPS to power the ONT may find there's no one listening at >>>> the other end of the long thin glass tube.
Have you any idea how remote these are?
Typically 40-70km, and they don't have that much kit either.
The whole last 30 miles is essentially passive...until
you get to CPE.
And the backhaul it relies upon after that is the same as copper
based signals anyway.
In short it should be *more* reliable in a power cut apart from the CPE. >>>
If you want redundancy buy your won bloody batteries
˙˙ We do.
˙˙ Alas your "more reliable" fiber ... HOW much "more"
˙˙ in a disaster situation ? Never seen it quantified.
˙˙ Claims - but no numbers, no field data.
But then neither is copper.
Ukraine shows that best˙ comms in a war is Starlink or fibre. line of
sight RF doesnmt survive jamming
˙˙ When that big hurricane pushed up into the central USA
˙˙ all towers/fiber/whatever went DOWN, pretty fast, TOO
˙˙ fast ... a lot of people perished because they could
˙˙ not even call for help. Authorities had to scrounge
˙˙ up a lot of sat-phones/StarLink quick. Wasn't quick
˙˙ enough.
˙˙ Maybe you live in some magical place where nothingNo,. I live in a place where˙ very serious things have happened, and technology evolved to deal with them
˙˙ serious ever happens ???
By and large we are bot worried about theoretical possibilities.
We can look at Ukraine to see what survives a war zone.
It turns out to be fiber
" Fiber-optic drones began proliferating across other areas of the
front, graduating from a niche capability to a staple weapon. Their use
has since expanded to such an extent that vast swaths of Ukrainian
farmland and forest are now littered with fiber-optic cables shed by
drones. Fiber-optic drones have also featured prominently in a series of major battles, including the most consequential fighting of the past
year in the Pokrovsk region of eastern Ukraine.
By mid-2025, the fiber-optic drone story was no longer so one-sided as Ukraine moved to replicate and adapt the capability. Domestic production surged thanks to Ukraine?s agile ecosystem of innovative defense tech startups. Within months, more than 80 Ukrainian-designed fiber-optic
systems had been approved for use, while the number of Ukrainian
companies involved in producing or integrating this category of drones
has rapidly expanded.
Ukrainian developers are now pushing the boundaries of range, with the country?s famous Birds of Magyar drone unit fielding a fiber-optic drone model capable of reaching approximately forty kilometers. What began as
a Russian experiment has evolved into a mutual innovation cycle in which Ukraine is now leading in certain aspects. "
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/fiber-optics-drones- have-emerged-as-critical-kit-for-both-russia-and-ukraine/
When you cab lay a 40knm fiber using a drone its not hard to get a basic comms net up.
Other methods using RF in non conflict areas include starlink type satellites, in LEO, or any form of 'high point' RF hotspot using e.g. balloons, loitering aircraft or˙ drones, or simply high terrain.
Given advances in battery, drone˙ and fibre technology, it would be far quicker and simpler to run a fibre controlled drone equipped with 3G etc into a disaster zone than lay in new copper
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-03, Rich wrote:
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
For example, if there is a village with 200 inhabitants with a small >>>>> shop and a bar, those places need internet in order to be able to
accept plastic card payments. And considering there is not a bank at >>>>> the site to get cash to pay, the villagers have to pay with
plastic. Or the visitors.
(Out of curiosity, if Visa and Mastercard cards are common in .es: Is
there no way to process card payments off-line in such towns?)
The card networks moved away from "off-line" card processing long ago.
... wait, then why did these two axe precisely the "on-line" cards -
Electron and Maestro? I thought they decided to *prefer*
"off-line" processing.
I suspect you are using a different meaning of "off-line". I mean "no computer or network needed to make a charge" as in the really good old
days where your card would be run through a carbon copy press with a
charge slip above it to impress the raised card numerals into the
charge slip.
At this point they (the card networks) likely don't care about
supporting tiny "locations" with only a few hundred folks for
accepting card payments "offline" as the amounts would be such a
tiny fraction of their gross, but amount to a huge amount of work,
effor, and expense to support.
Aren't "credit" cards usually "off-line"? Or that changed?
You can't "charge" to a modern credit card via paper methods anymore.
You need a computer and network (i.e. internet) connectivity to do so.
Couple that with the fact that "offline" processing can provide
additional avenues for attempted or actual fraud and they simply expect >>> merchants to be able to have one of the 'nfc scan terminals' and to be
able to network back to their servers for all the authentication and
authorization.
I'm not so sure about fraud, I'd not be surprised if magstripes, where
still present, or the optionality of PIN allowed more fraud than
smartcard "off-line" transactions.
Mag stripes disappeared one or two cargs ago on my cards. They no
longer have one on the card. You either do "chip" or you do "NFC" but
no more mag stripe. And the numbers have not been embossed and raised
for even longer than that, so the really old carbon copy paper slips
have been long gone for what feels like forever.
On 6/4/26 05:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
When you cab lay a 40knm fiber using a drone its not hard to get a
basic comms net up.
Other methods using RF in non conflict areas include starlink type
satellites, in LEO, or any form of 'high point' RF hotspot using e.g.
balloons, loitering aircraft or˙ drones, or simply high terrain.
Given advances in battery, drone˙ and fibre technology, it would be
far quicker and simpler to run a fibre controlled drone equipped with
3G etc into a disaster zone than lay in new copper
˙ Note those fiber-guided weapons, that fiber is hair-thin,
˙ not intended to be any kind of permanent comm link.
˙ Interesting though how the mil went from wire-guided, to
˙ RF/Laser, and now back to a version of "wire".
˙ In any case, copper or fiber are still *physical* media
˙ and that generally means stringing it up on poles where
˙ nature can attack.
The sheer mass of copper often meant
˙ it was less likely to "flap in the breeze" compared to
˙ a skinny fiber. The entire south and east coast of the
˙ USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant.
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote:
On 6/4/26 05:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. standard monoodeWhen you cab lay a 40knm fiber using a drone its not hard to get a
basic comms net up.
Other methods using RF in non conflict areas include starlink type
satellites, in LEO, or any form of 'high point' RF hotspot using e.g.
balloons, loitering aircraft or˙ drones, or simply high terrain.
Given advances in battery, drone˙ and fibre technology, it would be
far quicker and simpler to run a fibre controlled drone equipped with
3G etc into a disaster zone than lay in new copper
˙˙ Note those fiber-guided weapons, that fiber is hair-thin,
˙˙ not intended to be any kind of permanent comm link.
fibre IS hair thin
"The light-carrying glass core of a single-mode (monomode) fiber is incredibly thin, measuring only about 8 to 10 micrometers (
) in diameter.
For comparison, a typical human hair is about 100 micrometers wide,
making the core of a single-mode fiber roughly 10 times thinner than a single strand of hair. "
˙˙ Interesting though how the mil went from wire-guided, toMilitary intelligence is an oxymoron. Especially American
˙˙ RF/Laser, and now back to a version of "wire".
˙˙ In any case, copper or fiber are still *physical* media
˙˙ and that generally means stringing it up on poles where
˙˙ nature can attack.
No. It means burying it in a trench where Nature cannot get at it. Sheesh. Not every country is as technologically stone age as the USA
The sheer mass of copper often meantChrist on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance?
˙˙ it was less likely to "flap in the breeze" compared to
˙˙ a skinny fiber. The entire south and east coast of the
˙˙ USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant.
NOTHING goes overhead without a steel support core.
On 2026-06-04, Rich wrote:
Nuno Silva <...> wrote:
On 2026-06-03, Rich wrote:
Nuno Silva <...> wrote:
On 2026-06-02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
Couple that with the fact that "offline" processing can provide
additional avenues for attempted or actual fraud and they simply expect >>>> merchants to be able to have one of the 'nfc scan terminals' and to be >>>> able to network back to their servers for all the authentication and
authorization.
I'm not so sure about fraud, I'd not be surprised if magstripes, where
still present, or the optionality of PIN allowed more fraud than
smartcard "off-line" transactions.
Mag stripes disappeared one or two cargs ago on my cards. They no
longer have one on the card. You either do "chip" or you do "NFC" but
no more mag stripe. And the numbers have not been embossed and raised
for even longer than that, so the really old carbon copy paper slips
have been long gone for what feels like forever.
I've not had a card without it yet, but, in my experience from the past
few years, even if present the stripe is often refused if the terminal
has a smartcard interface.
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 10:36:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Individual biz varied more "back then". Took a little while for them
to decide what was in their fiscal interests to use. NOW they seem to
take anything, and you can run it Debit or CCard, PIN or No-PIN
respectively.
Most still have terminals that CAN do mag stripe, but chip-reading
(by insertion or 'tapping') is the most common approach. And yes,
they still do cash. GETTING paid is better than fretting about the
cost of the transaction terminals.
I use cash for groceries and usually go through the self checkout line. I seldom go to WinCo even though their prices are good because the traffic pattern is a pain. I had some items and the cash lines were long so I
figured I would use the card line. My card was declined. Turns out when
they say debit card they mean only debit cards since the swipe fee is much lower than a credit card.
I wasn't thinking since the card I use for the ATM is a debit card but
that's all I ever use it for.
Another market capitalized on the 'OMG they aren't going to make pennies anymore!' by turning the self checkout lanes into card only. Pisses me off since the other store in town deal with it. One did the logical thing and rounds off. Sometimes you save 2 cents, sometimes you pay 2 cents more.
BFD.
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 10:57:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Note those fiber-guided weapons, that fiber is hair-thin,
not intended to be any kind of permanent comm link.
Interesting though how the mil went from wire-guided, to RF/Laser,
and now back to a version of "wire".
I remember reading about TOW missiles beck in the '70s or '80s. My first thought was if you had to keep the aiming device on target you were
exposed. To keep the math simple, if you targeted something near the
maximum range of 3000 m with a missile moving at 300 m/sec you were in the breeze for a long time. I think I would prefer a fire-and-forget missile.
On 2026-06-03 04:29, InterLinked wrote:
On 6/2/2026 10:10 PM, Rich wrote:
InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected
to bear.
Also true.˙ They supply the original battery, but you get to pay to
replace it when it wears out over time.˙ And both wear out over time.
The lead acid from being kept charged, the D cells from self discharge.
Worse! They don't even supply the original battery! I had to buy my own
as well as the unit. And most people don't even bother and then are
surprised when their phone doesn't work when the power goes out.
At one point the battery was low on my original battery and the ONT did
start beeping every 15 minutes, which was annoying. A Verizon tech
happened to be visiting for something else and he got a kick out of
seeing some vintage telephones around the home, so I got lucky and he
gave me a free replacement battery from the truck. Not sure if that was
any skin off his nose... but might have to fake a service call the next
time it runs low and see if I can pull the same trick!
Here the normal thing is to connect traditional phones to the ONT. They maintain the fantasy that everything was as it were (and charge the same prices). Actually, if you ask them, it is not possible to connect real
VoIP phones.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-03 04:29, InterLinked wrote:
On 6/2/2026 10:10 PM, Rich wrote:
InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:Worse! They don't even supply the original battery! I had to buy my own
and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected
to bear.
Also true.˙ They supply the original battery, but you get to pay to
replace it when it wears out over time.˙ And both wear out over time.
The lead acid from being kept charged, the D cells from self discharge. >>>
as well as the unit. And most people don't even bother and then are
surprised when their phone doesn't work when the power goes out.
At one point the battery was low on my original battery and the ONT did
start beeping every 15 minutes, which was annoying. A Verizon tech
happened to be visiting for something else and he got a kick out of
seeing some vintage telephones around the home, so I got lucky and he
gave me a free replacement battery from the truck. Not sure if that was
any skin off his nose... but might have to fake a service call the next
time it runs low and see if I can pull the same trick!
Here the normal thing is to connect traditional phones to the ONT. They
maintain the fantasy that everything was as it were (and charge the same
prices). Actually, if you ask them, it is not possible to connect real
VoIP phones.
Same here with Verizon FIOS. My ONT has an ethernet port, a coax port
for cable TV, and either a modular jack or screw down terminals for
POTS wiring (or it might have both the modular jack and the screw down terminals).
If I had their phone service, the ONT would act as the "central office"
and provide the 48v standby, 60v RMS AC ring signal, and handle the D/A
and A/D conversion from old analog POTS to however Verizon carries
digitized voice phone data over FIOS when that feature is enabled.
Effectively, the ONT is /acting like/ one of those POTS to VOIP
adapters, just using whatever protocol Verizon uses behind the scenes
to carry the data. That protocol might just be VOIP, it might be
something else, needless to say, they do not tell customers what it is
nor provide us any normal access into that part of the system.
On 6/4/26 13:58, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 10:36:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Individual biz varied more "back then". Took a little while for them >>> to decide what was in their fiscal interests to use. NOW they seem to >>> take anything, and you can run it Debit or CCard, PIN or No-PIN
respectively.
Most still have terminals that CAN do mag stripe, but chip-reading
(by insertion or 'tapping') is the most common approach. And yes,
they still do cash. GETTING paid is better than fretting about the
cost of the transaction terminals.
I use cash for groceries and usually go through the self checkout line. I
seldom go to WinCo even though their prices are good because the traffic
pattern is a pain. I had some items and the cash lines were long so I
figured I would use the card line. My card was declined. Turns out when
they say debit card they mean only debit cards since the swipe fee is much >> lower than a credit card.
I *never* use 'self-checkout' - they ALWAYS think
customers are stealing stuff. If somebody just doesn't
like your face or shoes they'll have the cops come
and arrest you for shoplifting and strip searched. There
have been MANY complaints and even lawsuits. I read that
WalMart is REMOVING this option from a number of its stores.
I wasn't thinking since the card I use for the ATM is a debit card
but that's all I ever use it for.
Debit cards are likely the best overall option - UNLESS
you're one of those people perpetually in debt and HAVE
to incrementally pay a CCard because you don't have three
dollars in yer checking account.
Another market capitalized on the 'OMG they aren't going to make pennies
anymore!' by turning the self checkout lanes into card only. Pisses me off >> since the other store in town deal with it. One did the logical thing and
rounds off. Sometimes you save 2 cents, sometimes you pay 2 cents more.
BFD.
The 'pennies' thing - nobody is going to be happy with
it EXCEPT the Treasury. Admittedly they're NOT worth
the cost of making anymore, but transactions almost
never add up to exact multiples of five cents.
Pennies are SO useless otherwise .... I've suggested
some kind of PLASTIC penny instead with a tiny little
strip of 'hologram' tape inside.
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 14:56:32 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I *never* use 'self-checkout' - they ALWAYS think customers are
stealing stuff. If somebody just doesn't like your face or shoes
they'll have the cops come and arrest you for shoplifting and strip
searched. There have been MANY complaints and even lawsuits. I read
that WalMart is REMOVING this option from a number of its stores.
What sort of shit hole do you live in?
Is it the sort of place where
videos of 'youths' stealing stuff are filmed? I don't know about the local Walmarts. I might go into one every other year. It's my retailer of last resort.
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 15:03:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:
In Ukraine though, the target may be 30+ KM away,
you're not likely to have someone immediately shooting back at you.
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2023/05/fibre-optic-guided-missiles-efog-m- polyphem-and-others/
I find many articles about long range fiber optic guided missiles but most
of them end with the program being terminated. Interesting idea though. It might get messy with 30 km long strands of fibers draped over trees and so forth. They probably weren't biodegradable too and might put wildlife at risk.
I was curious about the short range TOWs too.
On 2026-06-04, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 13:58, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 10:36:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Individual biz varied more "back then". Took a little while for them >>>> to decide what was in their fiscal interests to use. NOW they seem to >>>> take anything, and you can run it Debit or CCard, PIN or No-PIN
respectively.
Most still have terminals that CAN do mag stripe, but chip-reading >>>> (by insertion or 'tapping') is the most common approach. And yes,
they still do cash. GETTING paid is better than fretting about the >>>> cost of the transaction terminals.
I use cash for groceries and usually go through the self checkout line. I >>> seldom go to WinCo even though their prices are good because the traffic >>> pattern is a pain. I had some items and the cash lines were long so I
figured I would use the card line. My card was declined. Turns out when
they say debit card they mean only debit cards since the swipe fee is much >>> lower than a credit card.
I *never* use 'self-checkout' - they ALWAYS think
customers are stealing stuff. If somebody just doesn't
like your face or shoes they'll have the cops come
and arrest you for shoplifting and strip searched. There
have been MANY complaints and even lawsuits. I read that
WalMart is REMOVING this option from a number of its stores.
I refuse to use self-checkout. The last thing I want is to hear a
mechanical voice nattering at me that I didn't put the bag on the
scale, or put items into the bag at the exact time it wants me to,
etc. etc. ad nausaeum. I'd rather deal with real live people -
it gives them jobs and they're much more pleasant to deal with.
I wasn't thinking since the card I use for the ATM is a debit card
but that's all I ever use it for.
Debit cards are likely the best overall option - UNLESS
you're one of those people perpetually in debt and HAVE
to incrementally pay a CCard because you don't have three
dollars in yer checking account.
We usually use credit cards, but only because we get bonus points
that translate into (a small number of) real dollars from time to
time. We do use debit cards when it's more beneficial, though.
Another market capitalized on the 'OMG they aren't going to make pennies >>> anymore!' by turning the self checkout lanes into card only. Pisses me off >>> since the other store in town deal with it. One did the logical thing and >>> rounds off. Sometimes you save 2 cents, sometimes you pay 2 cents more.
BFD.
The 'pennies' thing - nobody is going to be happy with
it EXCEPT the Treasury. Admittedly they're NOT worth
the cost of making anymore, but transactions almost
never add up to exact multiples of five cents.
Pennies are SO useless otherwise .... I've suggested
some kind of PLASTIC penny instead with a tiny little
strip of 'hologram' tape inside.
Canada got rid of pennies years ago. People have come to
accept the rounding thing - it all averages out in the end.
On 2026-06-03, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
On 6/2/2026 10:10 PM, Rich wrote:
InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected
to bear.
Also true. They supply the original battery, but you get to pay to
replace it when it wears out over time. And both wear out over time.
The lead acid from being kept charged, the D cells from self discharge.
Worse! They don't even supply the original battery! I had to buy my own
as well as the unit. And most people don't even bother and then are
surprised when their phone doesn't work when the power goes out.
I bought some batteries, but they weren't
included - so I had to buy them again.
-- Stephen Wright
On 2026-06-04, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:mechanical voice nattering at me that I didn't put the bag on the
On 6/4/26 13:58, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 10:36:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Individual biz varied more "back then". Took a little while for them >>>> to decide what was in their fiscal interests to use. NOW they seem to >>>> take anything, and you can run it Debit or CCard, PIN or No-PIN
respectively.
Most still have terminals that CAN do mag stripe, but chip-reading >>>> (by insertion or 'tapping') is the most common approach. And yes, >>>> they still do cash. GETTING paid is better than fretting about the >>>> cost of the transaction terminals.
I use cash for groceries and usually go through the self checkout line. I >>> seldom go to WinCo even though their prices are good because the traffic >>> pattern is a pain. I had some items and the cash lines were long so I
figured I would use the card line. My card was declined. Turns out when
they say debit card they mean only debit cards since the swipe fee is much >>> lower than a credit card.
I *never* use 'self-checkout' - they ALWAYS think
customers are stealing stuff. If somebody just doesn't
like your face or shoes they'll have the cops come
and arrest you for shoplifting and strip searched. There
have been MANY complaints and even lawsuits. I read that
WalMart is REMOVING this option from a number of its stores.
I refuse to use self-checkout. The last thing I want is to hear a>
scale, or put items into the bag at the exact time it wants me to,
etc. etc. ad nausaeum. I'd rather deal with real live people -
it gives them jobs and they're much more pleasant to deal with.
I wasn't thinking since the card I use for the ATM is a debit card
but that's all I ever use it for.
Debit cards are likely the best overall option - UNLESS
you're one of those people perpetually in debt and HAVE
to incrementally pay a CCard because you don't have three
dollars in yer checking account.
We usually use credit cards, but only because we get bonus points
that translate into (a small number of) real dollars from time to
time. We do use debit cards when it's more beneficial, though.
Another market capitalized on the 'OMG they aren't going to make pennies >>> anymore!' by turning the self checkout lanes into card only. Pisses me off >>> since the other store in town deal with it. One did the logical thing and >>> rounds off. Sometimes you save 2 cents, sometimes you pay 2 cents more.
BFD.
The 'pennies' thing - nobody is going to be happy with
it EXCEPT the Treasury. Admittedly they're NOT worth
the cost of making anymore, but transactions almost
never add up to exact multiples of five cents.
Pennies are SO useless otherwise .... I've suggested
some kind of PLASTIC penny instead with a tiny little
strip of 'hologram' tape inside.
Canada got rid of pennies years ago. People have come to
accept the rounding thing - it all averages out in the end.
On 2026-06-05, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-04, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 13:58, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 10:36:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Individual biz varied more "back then". Took a little while for them >>>>> to decide what was in their fiscal interests to use. NOW they seem to
take anything, and you can run it Debit or CCard, PIN or No-PIN >>>>> respectively.
Most still have terminals that CAN do mag stripe, but chip-reading >>>>> (by insertion or 'tapping') is the most common approach. And yes, >>>>> they still do cash. GETTING paid is better than fretting about the >>>>> cost of the transaction terminals.
I use cash for groceries and usually go through the self checkout line. I >>>> seldom go to WinCo even though their prices are good because the traffic >>>> pattern is a pain. I had some items and the cash lines were long so I
figured I would use the card line. My card was declined. Turns out when >>>> they say debit card they mean only debit cards since the swipe fee is much >>>> lower than a credit card.
Ahhhh, WinCo Foods. I was a regular from the mid-1980s. Then,
early on in the Wuhan scamdemic they suddenly started treating
customers like inmates in a high-security prison. I get my
groceries elsewhere, now. Prices might be higher, but I save at
least that much in the gasoline it had been costing me to get to
WinCo.
I *never* use 'self-checkout' - they ALWAYS think
customers are stealing stuff. If somebody just doesn't
like your face or shoes they'll have the cops come
and arrest you for shoplifting and strip searched. There
have been MANY complaints and even lawsuits. I read that
WalMart is REMOVING this option from a number of its stores.
I refuse to use self-checkout. The last thing I want is to hear a
mechanical voice nattering at me that I didn't put the bag on the
scale, or put items into the bag at the exact time it wants me to,
etc. etc. ad nausaeum. I'd rather deal with real live people -
it gives them jobs and they're much more pleasant to deal with.
Self-checkout at Home Despot was the worst. When buying a
plastic packet of a half dozen #8 flat washers, the scale
wouldn't register that I had dropped the merchandise in the bag.
My preferred solution to that is to press on the scale with my
hand when dropping smaller items in the bag.
Oh, yes, and in the People's Republic of Oregon, 1-mil plastic
(and now 3-mil, IIUC) are outlawed. I bring my own paper bags
that I had custom printed.
I wasn't thinking since the card I use for the ATM is a debit card
but that's all I ever use it for.
Debit cards are likely the best overall option - UNLESS
you're one of those people perpetually in debt and HAVE
to incrementally pay a CCard because you don't have three
dollars in yer checking account.
We usually use credit cards, but only because we get bonus points
that translate into (a small number of) real dollars from time to
time. We do use debit cards when it's more beneficial, though.
Another market capitalized on the 'OMG they aren't going to make pennies >>>> anymore!' by turning the self checkout lanes into card only. Pisses me off >>>> since the other store in town deal with it. One did the logical thing and >>>> rounds off. Sometimes you save 2 cents, sometimes you pay 2 cents more. >>>> BFD.
The 'pennies' thing - nobody is going to be happy with
it EXCEPT the Treasury. Admittedly they're NOT worth
the cost of making anymore, but transactions almost
never add up to exact multiples of five cents.
Pennies are SO useless otherwise .... I've suggested
some kind of PLASTIC penny instead with a tiny little
strip of 'hologram' tape inside.
Canada got rid of pennies years ago. People have come to
accept the rounding thing - it all averages out in the end.
The penny thing is interesting. In western Oregon, some
retailers promptly stopped touching pennies because their banks
refused to supply pennies to the retailers. However, just a
couple of months ago an employee (appeared to be a manager) at a
retailer in Baker City in eastern Oregon said there was no penny
shortage. My theory is local/regional banks are artificially
making the penny shortage more severe than it would naturally be.
The people I feel sorry for in the penny situation are those who
work in shoe stores, because each shoe store has to replace their
entire inventory of penny loafers with nickel loafers. :-) :-)
On 2026-06-03, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-03, InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:
On 6/2/2026 10:10 PM, Rich wrote:
InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote:Worse! They don't even supply the original battery! I had to buy my own
and both are now a significant cost that consumers are now expected
to bear.
Also true. They supply the original battery, but you get to pay to
replace it when it wears out over time. And both wear out over time.
The lead acid from being kept charged, the D cells from self discharge. >>>
as well as the unit. And most people don't even bother and then are
surprised when their phone doesn't work when the power goes out.
I bought some batteries, but they weren't
included - so I had to buy them again.
-- Stephen Wright
Then, there's a photo in circulation of a large glass jar labeled
Dead Batteries -- No Charge
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 22:18:33 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Well, WalMart isn't THAT bad - good selection of basic stuff for
affordable prices. But the SHOPPING ENVIRONMENT could be improved.
Gimme HUMAN checkers !!!
My infrequent trips to Walmart are a lesson in why 'white pride' isn't a viable concept.
On Fri, 05 Jun 2026 00:13:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I refuse to use self-checkout. The last thing I want is to hear a
mechanical voice nattering at me that I didn't put the bag on the scale,
or put items into the bag at the exact time it wants me to,
etc. etc. ad nausaeum. I'd rather deal with real live people - it gives
them jobs and they're much more pleasant to deal with.
When the self checkout lanes went in the 'express' lanes were shutdown.
That means you get to wait behind someone with a cart that's wheels are on the verge of collapsing. If you're really lucky there won't be a long
sorting of food stamp eligible items from the rest, the EBT card will have enough to cover the eligible items, and the shopper won't have to cycle through more than three credit/debit cards to find one that isn't
declined.
Besides one of my personal failings is I'd rather deal with the mutts over
at animal services or the 'community' cats that show up at mealtime. The latter are friendly to me but are definitely their own cats.
I'm socialized enough to make small talk with a cashier but I'd rather
not.
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 22:45:45 -0400, c186282 wrote:
A new alt is super-rez 'inertial' guidance
using light-loop tech. Set yer start coords EXACTLY and they're good
for a fair distance and time. I read that Poland and the Baltics were
looking into this once Russia started jamming GPS. Smallish cheapish
chips now.
Full circle. One of the drivers for GPS is if you fire a ballistic missile from a submarine it helps to know exactly where you are.
I think they're used in some civvie drones already. A company came by
to demonstrate its drone - hovered perfectly still even in kinda
gusty winds. You could poke at it and it'd bounce back almost
instantly. That's not GPS,
its super-sensitive tri-axis accelerometers.
https://www.techgearlab.com/reviews/cool-gadgets/drones/dji-tello
It's so light but it can maintain position in a gentle breeze. No GPS. It uses a down facing camera. Neat idea and it came with a SDK to control it over BlueTooth. It was $99 when I bought it.
I've got a larger drone but it's strictly manual control like an old-time
RC plane.
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is my fav,
cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right by "self"
and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get to watch
each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say "THANKS !"
and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle anymore.
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 00:29:52 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 6/4/26 23:40, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 22:18:33 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Well, WalMart isn't THAT bad - good selection of basic stuff for
affordable prices. But the SHOPPING ENVIRONMENT could be improved. >>>> Gimme HUMAN checkers !!!
My infrequent trips to Walmart are a lesson in why 'white pride' isn't
a viable concept.
Umm ... a proportional number of customers I've seen are not "white"
......
When blacks make up 0.7% of the population in the state you don't see many although it has become more 'diverse' in the last 35 years. Asians beat
them at 1.0%. Indians are the largest minority but many of them don't
stray far from the ez.
Anyway, as said, basic "stuff" at basic prices. If you are not
overflowing with cash, might not be your last possible stop. CAN be a
tad inconvenient to get around the 400-lb Billy-Bobs/Barbs sometimes
though ....
That's what I had in mind. The area is big on outdoor recreation but if you're into spudbutts Walmart is the place to be. I'll admit that without Walmart and it's cheap Chinese stuff many Americans would be well and
truly screwed.
I used to wear Herman Survivor boots. Like most of the shoe shops in New Hampshire and Maine they didn't survive offshoring. Walmart bought the
brand name and enshitified it. Yeah, they sold for $50 but were worth
less.
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 00:25:08 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hmm ... IS there some use for dead batteries ? Most just throw 'em in
the trash, but they ARE full of chems and metal salts and such ....
When I was a kid I salvaged the carbon core out of D cells. They were good for making a arc lights. Didn't even get electrocuted. The big ones were
even better but I can't remember what they were called. iirc they had two screw terminals.
No. It means burying it in a trench where Nature cannot get at it.
Sheesh.
Not every country is as technologically stone age as the USA
˙ Sheesh ... have you looked into all the PROPERTY RIGHTS
˙ and RIGHT-OF-WAY rules in the USA ? You can't just start
˙ digging a trench, you'd upset somebody's lawyers and/or
˙ destroy something expensive already down there yet poorly
˙ documented.
On 6/5/26 03:20, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 00:25:08 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙˙ Hmm ... IS there some use for dead batteries ? Most just throw
'em in
˙˙˙ the trash, but they ARE full of chems and metal salts and such ....
When I was a kid I salvaged the carbon core out of D cells. They were
good
for making a arc lights. Didn't even get electrocuted. The big ones were
even better but I can't remember what they were called. iirc they had two
screw terminals.
˙ Heh heh - did the SAME thing !!!˙ :-)
˙ You can get carbon rods at a welding supply store.
˙ There USED to be some for arc-lamp movie projectors
˙ but I doubt any of those exist anymore. An old friend
˙ used to work at a creaky Drive-In theater.
On Fri, 05 Jun 2026 00:13:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I refuse to use self-checkout. The last thing I want is to hear a
mechanical voice nattering at me that I didn't put the bag on the scale,
or put items into the bag at the exact time it wants me to,
etc. etc. ad nausaeum. I'd rather deal with real live people - it gives
them jobs and they're much more pleasant to deal with.
When the self checkout lanes went in the 'express' lanes were shutdown.
That means you get to wait behind someone with a cart that's wheels are
on the verge of collapsing. If you're really lucky there won't be a long sorting of food stamp eligible items from the rest, the EBT card will have enough to cover the eligible items, and the shopper won't have to cycle through more than three credit/debit cards to find one that isn't
declined.
On 2026-06-05 10:15, c186282 wrote:
˙ You can get carbon rods at a welding supply store.
˙ There USED to be some for arc-lamp movie projectors
˙ but I doubt any of those exist anymore. An old friend
˙ used to work at a creaky Drive-In theater.
I worked with those in the 80's, in a university cine-club. A nucleus of carbon and minerals in layers, then an outside layer of copper. About 65 Amps. Blinding white light!
I think I have a sample as memsake.
(dictionary says "memsake" is bad spelling. What is the correct one?)
I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half
of that is my fav, cashew nuts). It's always
"10 items or less". Walk right by "self" and
go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say
"Hi !", get to watch each item individually
scanned by the employee. Get to say "THANKS !"
and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Alas by many reports, Gen-Z/A2 are TERRIFIED to
actually interact with strange humans, even over
a phone line. Dunno WHAT'S behind that but it's
pretty damned bad.
A few weeks back a pleasant little bagger gal
commented on the Archeology mag I bought - she
was pretty sharp and the short exchange made
me feel good. Gen-Z might have freaked at
her 'rude judgemental intrusion' into their
precious insular 'space'.
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 00:25:08 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hmm ... IS there some use for dead batteries ? Most just throw 'em in
the trash, but they ARE full of chems and metal salts and such ....
When I was a kid I salvaged the carbon core out of D cells. They were good for making a arc lights. Didn't even get electrocuted. The big ones were even better but I can't remember what they were called. iirc they had two screw terminals.
On 2026-06-05, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-05 10:15, c186282 wrote:
˙ You can get carbon rods at a welding supply store.
˙ There USED to be some for arc-lamp movie projectors
˙ but I doubt any of those exist anymore. An old friend
˙ used to work at a creaky Drive-In theater.
I worked with those in the 80's, in a university cine-club. A nucleus of
carbon and minerals in layers, then an outside layer of copper. About 65
Amps. Blinding white light!
I think I have a sample as memsake.
(dictionary says "memsake" is bad spelling. What is the correct one?)
Around here the equivalent word is "keepsake".
On 2026-06-05 10:15, c186282 wrote:
On 6/5/26 03:20, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 00:25:08 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙˙ Hmm ... IS there some use for dead batteries ? Most just throwWhen I was a kid I salvaged the carbon core out of D cells. They were
'em in
˙˙˙ the trash, but they ARE full of chems and metal salts and such .... >>>
good
for making a arc lights. Didn't even get electrocuted. The big ones were >>> even better but I can't remember what they were called. iirc they had
two
screw terminals.
˙˙ Heh heh - did the SAME thing !!!˙ :-)
˙˙ You can get carbon rods at a welding supply store.
˙˙ There USED to be some for arc-lamp movie projectors
˙˙ but I doubt any of those exist anymore. An old friend
˙˙ used to work at a creaky Drive-In theater.
I worked with those in the 80's, in a university cine-club. A nucleus of carbon and minerals in layers, then an outside layer of copper. About 65 Amps. Blinding white light!
I think I have a sample as memsake.
(dictionary says "memsake" is bad spelling. What is the correct one?)
On 04/06/2026 17:08, c186282 wrote:
No. It means burying it in a trench where Nature cannot get at it.
Sheesh.
Not every country is as technologically stone age as the USA
˙˙ Sheesh ... have you looked into all the PROPERTY RIGHTS
˙˙ and RIGHT-OF-WAY rules in the USA ? You can't just start
˙˙ digging a trench, you'd upset somebody's lawyers and/or
˙˙ destroy something expensive already down there yet poorly
˙˙ documented.
Which confirms the point
On 5 Jun 2026 03:12:31 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
Ahhhh, WinCo Foods. I was a regular from the mid-1980s. Then, early on
in the Wuhan scamdemic they suddenly started treating customers like
inmates in a high-security prison. I get my groceries elsewhere, now.
Prices might be higher, but I save at least that much in the gasoline it
had been costing me to get to WinCo.
I don't go there that often, mostly in search of pork hocks, chicken gizzards, or other specialty meats the other markets don't carry. Even finding liver is a chore.
WinCo is on the south side of a busy street, Rosauers is directly across
on the north side. I come in from the west and making a left across one
lane and then leaving going west is much easier. Winco is easier to turn into and a bear to escape. Besides, Rosauers has a machine to grind your
own almond butter and WinCo only has one for peanuts.
Oh, yes, and in the People's Republic of Oregon, 1-mil plastic (and now
3-mil, IIUC) are outlawed. I bring my own paper bags that I had custom
printed.
Ah, the land of 'don't touch that gas pump'. I did notice if you're on a bike they ignore that. Last time I was in the state the eastern counties where there aren't enough people to provide pump attendants the law didn't apply.
The penny thing is interesting. In western Oregon, some retailers
promptly stopped touching pennies because their banks refused to supply
pennies to the retailers. However, just a couple of months ago an
employee (appeared to be a manager) at a retailer in Baker City in
eastern Oregon said there was no penny shortage. My theory is
local/regional banks are artificially making the penny shortage more
severe than it would naturally be.
Albertson's seem to have a magical supply of pennies as do some other businesses. Rosauer's is the only one that went to credit cards only for self checkout. I go through the manned lines and I think you get pennies
in change. I smell an ulterior motive although why they'd rather pay the swipe fees instead of maintaining the machines escapes me.
Then there is Yoke's. I haven't been through a manned checkout in a while but they used to give out $2 bills in change. That had to be a special request to the bank. They're pristine so I use them for bookmarks.
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 04:11:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Used to buy work/motorcycle boots at an 'elite' store. Then suddenly
saw them elsewhere for less. Thing is, reading the little labels,
they'd changed where they MADE them to a cheaper locale. Could not
wear the things ... aggressive out-of-place stitching would put
blisters on yer feet.
A independent shoe store in town carried Red Wings and I liked them. The
ones they carried were made in the USA, not 'assembled from imported components' but they dropped the line. They were work boots so the soles weren't as aggressive as hiking boots but they worked.
I switched to Danners. Some of them are still made in the US but they are hard to find. The US Mountain Light is $470, the imported Mountain 600 is $230. I'm not that much of a purist and the imports are well made and comfortable. I'm on my second pair. I use the first pair for working
around the house but the soles are so worn they started getting slippery
on the trail.
I've tried other brands over the years. They weren't cheap but a couple of times I've given them away. One pair was so painful I took them off and walked down the trail barefoot.
On 2026-06-05, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half
of that is my fav, cashew nuts). It's always
"10 items or less". Walk right by "self" and
go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say
"Hi !", get to watch each item individually
scanned by the employee. Get to say "THANKS !"
and get a little smile. MUCH better.
+1
Alas by many reports, Gen-Z/A2 are TERRIFIED to
actually interact with strange humans, even over
a phone line. Dunno WHAT'S behind that but it's
pretty damned bad.
Weird.
A few weeks back a pleasant little bagger gal
commented on the Archeology mag I bought - she
was pretty sharp and the short exchange made
me feel good. Gen-Z might have freaked at
her 'rude judgemental intrusion' into their
precious insular 'space'.
When we're at the pub, my wife often strikes up a
conversation with the waitress while we're paying
our bill. She's good at getting someone's life
history out of them. Many of these people are
there to pay the bills while going to school -
and taking interesting and useful courses,
not just fluff. It's reassuring to see that
at least some people are trying to make something
of their lives.
On 2026-06-05, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 00:25:08 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hmm ... IS there some use for dead batteries ? Most just throw 'em in >>> the trash, but they ARE full of chems and metal salts and such ....
Around here recycling depots take them. I wouldn't want to
use them as weights or whatever - lots of nasty chemicals start
oozing out...
When I was a kid I salvaged the carbon core out of D cells. They were good >> for making a arc lights. Didn't even get electrocuted. The big ones were
even better but I can't remember what they were called. iirc they had two
screw terminals.
No. 6 cells. My early electrical experiments started when I stole
the pair that powered our doorbell. I might still have one of
those carbon rods around somewhere.
On Sat, 6 Jun 2026 00:10:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:
DO try BATES boots. Price is fair and performance is very good.
Amazon and others carry them. These are what I switched to.
They do get good reviews.
On 6 Jun 2026 03:10:21 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
Thankfully, for maybe year or so now, maybe two years, Oregon
_F_I_N_A_L_L_Y_ allows self-serve gasoline everywhere.
Amazing! It's been a minute or two since I've been in Oregon. Probably a couple of years pre-covid. I went across 20, down to Newport, and up the coast. I lucked out and the weather was great until I got to Port Angeles
and the skies opened up. It was monsoon until I got over Stevens Pass.
That was more restful than the trip where I went from Grants Pass to Gold Beach the hard way. At least I got to hike Mt. Bolivar. A few years later some guy died in that area when his GPS showed a 'shortcut'. The car got stuck in snow and he went for help. The wife and kids stayed with the car
and survived. There is a lot of road around the Wild Rogue Wilderness, all
of it pretty bad.
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 22:31:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:
As said, going underground sure SOUNDS simple ... but now there's
likely to be a lot of Other People's Stuff already down there. Copper
wiring can *usually* be detected (there are companies that do this,
paint orange lines all over the grass) but water and sewer and fiber
won't necessarily show up. GOOD high-rez ground-penetrating radar
units still don't seem cheap enough.
I worked one summer for a contractor. 'Call before you dig'. His method
was to have the backhoe operator keep digging until he dug up copper and
then call. The job didn't last long but I learned a lot about sleazy new house construction. The buyers saw the fireplace and hardwood floors and fell in love. They didn't notice the leach field was in a swamp and the foundation 'waterproofing' was a veneer of waterproofing heavily cut with diesel. They found out about that when they noticed the in ground swimming pool that was supposed to be the basement.
On Sat, 6 Jun 2026 00:36:43 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Checkers/waiters/etc are NOT alien drones. SOME are idiots but MOST
are "people". Some are BRIGHT people. They're not evil or devils.
The pattern is kids come to UM, fall in love with the area, and stay after they graduate. We may have the most well educated baristas, waiters, and
shoe clerks in the world.
On 2026-06-05, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2026 03:12:31 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
Ah, the land of 'don't touch that gas pump'. I did notice if you're on a
bike they ignore that. Last time I was in the state the eastern counties
where there aren't enough people to provide pump attendants the law didn't >> apply.
Thankfully, for maybe year or so now, maybe two years, Oregon
_F_I_N_A_L_L_Y_ allows self-serve gasoline everywhere. Stations
are required to keep "service" on at least 50% of the pumps, and
they can't give a discount for self-serve. My wife has the pump
jockey do the job (and often fail to put the cap back on
properly, sometimes resulting in gasoline spilling out of the
fill neck while driving--not good). I operate the pump myself.
On 6/5/26 06:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-05 10:15, c186282 wrote:
On 6/5/26 03:20, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 00:25:08 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙˙ Hmm ... IS there some use for dead batteries ? Most just throw
'em in
˙˙˙ the trash, but they ARE full of chems and metal salts and
such ....
When I was a kid I salvaged the carbon core out of D cells. They
were good
for making a arc lights. Didn't even get electrocuted. The big ones
were
even better but I can't remember what they were called. iirc they
had two
screw terminals.
˙˙ Heh heh - did the SAME thing !!!˙ :-)
˙˙ You can get carbon rods at a welding supply store.
˙˙ There USED to be some for arc-lamp movie projectors
˙˙ but I doubt any of those exist anymore. An old friend
˙˙ used to work at a creaky Drive-In theater.
I worked with those in the 80's, in a university cine-club. A nucleus
of carbon and minerals in layers, then an outside layer of copper.
About 65 Amps. Blinding white light!
I think I have a sample as memsake.
(dictionary says "memsake" is bad spelling. What is the correct one?)
˙ "Memsake" - sounds Japanese˙ :-)
˙ Anyway, exactly the item. The thin copper kept oxygen
˙ from getting to anything but the working ends. It'd
˙ slowly vaporize once the REALLY hot bit progressed
˙ along.
˙ It was a dirty projection booth.
˙ But few were really there to watch the movie.
˙ Ah :
https://www.amazon.com/PATIKIL-6mmx305mm-Gouging-Graphite-Electrode/dp/ B0CZQZSY7H/ref=sr_1_6?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.JFxjn5HyTd- WqpfBkk9aE5geO5ZyIwsklySCEhYt97bk2CyL5c8RULOSHI02VqgxMyC9uzGEyi9ieMm-3cipxM8iCXTbzGfP7Ret14GG8P4v4Skl8F6Nxfr-4ilEvx9C9J3djfmYN9j2PMeaU9tbYEnnuG3PBbBfIiIPOswQFZs0W4Sxs9P6WecX7JcTWyLyalmSTozbZkfU_TI26LxlYZBuJSsT_d7N4HCOEBQoxMATjZ3635cWVT7QzHhuXiMsDaQuw3TxGpBf7Qz8xUNJexASOLd-bKre2LxHiZ_s4ug.bAr4bg-jVSEc2ZuUjEAKDo_G4iy_Bv2OI7Ks59V28gk&dib_tag=se&keywords=welding+carbon+rod&qid=1780710711&sr=8-6
˙ Also another kind with a more square profile.
˙ My Dad briefly had a job as a projectionist in the
˙ early 30s - arc lamps and often NITRATE film. There's
˙ a reason those old projection booths were built like
˙ a pill-box.
On Fri, 05 Jun 2026 19:21:47 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
No. 6 cells. My early electrical experiments started when I stole the
pair that powered our doorbell. I might still have one of those carbon
rods around somewhere.
That's it, thanks. I could picture it but not put a name to it. I'm
pushing the boundaries of memory but I think they were EverReadys with the cat logo.
Checkers/waiters/etc are NOT alien drones. SOME
are idiots but MOST are "people". Some are BRIGHT
people. They're not evil or devils.
Odd how the rise of "social networks" resulted in
the kiddies becoming very UN-social. Some new
thinking paradigm emerged.
Either that or Mommy WAS smoking enough crack to
warp their little brains ......
On Sat, 6 Jun 2026 01:52:13 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Never been to Oregon ... and, now-WOKE, see NO reason to ever go
there. Seems like somebody is putting LSD in the water supply up the
entire west coast.
Gimme a Stetson and some cowboy boots and I could be happy until the
end.
You would fit in fine in eastern Oregon. There's a semi-serious movement
to secede from Oregon and join Nevada or Utah.
On 2026-06-06 05:10, Robert Riches wrote:
On 2026-06-05, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2026 03:12:31 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
Ah, the land of 'don't touch that gas pump'. I did notice if you're on a >>> bike they ignore that. Last time I was in the state the eastern counties >>> where there aren't enough people to provide pump attendants the law didn't >>> apply.
Thankfully, for maybe year or so now, maybe two years, Oregon
_F_I_N_A_L_L_Y_ allows self-serve gasoline everywhere. Stations
are required to keep "service" on at least 50% of the pumps, and
they can't give a discount for self-serve. My wife has the pump
jockey do the job (and often fail to put the cap back on
properly, sometimes resulting in gasoline spilling out of the
fill neck while driving--not good). I operate the pump myself.
Filling the tank so much that gasoline spills when moving, if the cap is loose, means the tank has been filled way too much over the limit. This
is bad for a modern car and can cause an expensive breakdown.
On 2026-06-06 05:10, Robert Riches wrote:
On 2026-06-05, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2026 03:12:31 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
Ah, the land of 'don't touch that gas pump'. I did notice if you're on a >>> bike they ignore that. Last time I was in the state the eastern counties >>> where there aren't enough people to provide pump attendants the law
didn't
apply.
Thankfully, for maybe year or so now, maybe two years, Oregon
_F_I_N_A_L_L_Y_ allows self-serve gasoline everywhere.˙ Stations
are required to keep "service" on at least 50% of the pumps, and
they can't give a discount for self-serve.˙ My wife has the pump
jockey do the job (and often fail to put the cap back on
properly, sometimes resulting in gasoline spilling out of the
fill neck while driving--not good).˙ I operate the pump myself.
Filling the tank so much that gasoline spills when moving, if the cap is loose, means the tank has been filled way too much over the limit. This
is bad for a modern car and can cause an expensive breakdown.
{Note Followups-To} ==== means ====> do not post on comp.os.linux.misc
On 2026-06-06 04:15, c186282 wrote:
On 6/5/26 06:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-05 10:15, c186282 wrote:
On 6/5/26 03:20, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jun 2026 00:25:08 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙˙ Hmm ... IS there some use for dead batteries ? Most just throw >>>>>> 'em in
˙˙˙ the trash, but they ARE full of chems and metal salts and
such ....
When I was a kid I salvaged the carbon core out of D cells. They
were good
for making a arc lights. Didn't even get electrocuted. The big ones >>>>> were
even better but I can't remember what they were called. iirc they
had two
screw terminals.
˙˙ Heh heh - did the SAME thing !!!˙ :-)
˙˙ You can get carbon rods at a welding supply store.
˙˙ There USED to be some for arc-lamp movie projectors
˙˙ but I doubt any of those exist anymore. An old friend
˙˙ used to work at a creaky Drive-In theater.
I worked with those in the 80's, in a university cine-club. A nucleus
of carbon and minerals in layers, then an outside layer of copper.
About 65 Amps. Blinding white light!
I think I have a sample as memsake.
(dictionary says "memsake" is bad spelling. What is the correct one?)
˙˙ "Memsake" - sounds Japanese˙ :-)
˙˙ Anyway, exactly the item. The thin copper kept oxygen
˙˙ from getting to anything but the working ends. It'd
˙˙ slowly vaporize once the REALLY hot bit progressed
˙˙ along.
˙˙ It was a dirty projection booth.
We had an exhaust tube going up the roof.
˙˙ But few were really there to watch the movie.
˙˙ Ah :
https://www.amazon.com/PATIKIL-6mmx305mm-Gouging-Graphite-Electrode/
dp/ B0CZQZSY7H/ref=sr_1_6?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.JFxjn5HyTd-
WqpfBkk9aE5geO5ZyIwsklySCEhYt97bk2CyL5c8RULOSHI02VqgxMyC9uzGEyi9ieMm-3cipxM8iCXTbzGfP7Ret14GG8P4v4Skl8F6Nxfr-4ilEvx9C9J3djfmYN9j2PMeaU9tbYEnnuG3PBbBfIiIPOswQFZs0W4Sxs9P6WecX7JcTWyLyalmSTozbZkfU_TI26LxlYZBuJSsT_d7N4HCOEBQoxMATjZ3635cWVT7QzHhuXiMsDaQuw3TxGpBf7Qz8xUNJexASOLd-bKre2LxHiZ_s4ug.bAr4bg-jVSEc2ZuUjEAKDo_G4iy_Bv2OI7Ks59V28gk&dib_tag=se&keywords=welding+carbon+rod&qid=1780710711&sr=8-6
Amazing! They still sell them.
Ah, trick. With Amazon links, you can delete everyhing after the /dp/ number.
https://www.amazon.com/PATIKIL-6mmx305mm-Gouging-Graphite-Electrode/dp/ B0CZQZSY7H
Then, you can also remove the name:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/ B0CZQZSY7H
The rest, is tracking information about you.
˙˙ Also another kind with a more square profile.
˙˙ My Dad briefly had a job as a projectionist in the
˙˙ early 30s - arc lamps and often NITRATE film. There's
˙˙ a reason those old projection booths were built like
˙˙ a pill-box.
Those could catch instant fire.
On Sat, 6 Jun 2026 01:56:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
So, 'wireless' is the modern choice - even when it sucks for the
customers. Hey, just TELL 'em it's So Great ....
I can't complain about Verizon's wireless. It works for me. My phone is
Mint so I get ads from Mint about their 5G plans that are cheaper than Verizon. The website says it's not available where I am. It's the T-
Mobile network. The phone is usually 4G although there are a few dead
spots indoors.
I keep looking at StarLink. Maybe I'll wait until Musk gets a million LEOs up. It was more a proof of concept than anything useful but I remember
being out in the backyard waiting to see Echo 1 transit the sky. I don't think you can see any of the LEOs with the naked eye anymore. Just as well
as it would probably look like a cloud of bluebottle flies orbiting a road killed deer on a hot august day.
On 6/4/26 23:12, Robert Riches wrote:
On 2026-06-05, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
I refuse to use self-checkout. The last thing I want is to hear a
mechanical voice nattering at me that I didn't put the bag on the
scale, or put items into the bag at the exact time it wants me to,
etc. etc. ad nausaeum. I'd rather deal with real live people -
it gives them jobs and they're much more pleasant to deal with.
Self-checkout at Home Despot was the worst. When buying a plastic
packet of a half dozen #8 flat washers, the scale wouldn't register
that I had dropped the merchandise in the bag. My preferred
solution to that is to press on the scale with my hand when dropping
smaller items in the bag.
...
The weird thing, 'self' ALWAYS has a human OVERSEEING
the proceedings. Why not just give 'em a check-out
terminal and do it in the usual fashion ???
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 23:12, Robert Riches wrote:
On 2026-06-05, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
I refuse to use self-checkout. The last thing I want is to hear a
mechanical voice nattering at me that I didn't put the bag on the
scale, or put items into the bag at the exact time it wants me to,
etc. etc. ad nausaeum. I'd rather deal with real live people -
it gives them jobs and they're much more pleasant to deal with.
Self-checkout at Home Despot was the worst. When buying a plastic
packet of a half dozen #8 flat washers, the scale wouldn't register
that I had dropped the merchandise in the bag. My preferred
solution to that is to press on the scale with my hand when dropping
smaller items in the bag.
...
The weird thing, 'self' ALWAYS has a human OVERSEEING
the proceedings. Why not just give 'em a check-out
terminal and do it in the usual fashion ???
If you pay attention, that human is overseeing the proceedings at four
or six terminals.
But the human is not receiving the pay of six checkout clerks, they get
the pay of only a single one.
So four, or six, customers are checking out in parallel, while the
overseer is being paid 1x the salary of a checkout clerk.
From the MBA's running the show perspective, they get six checkout
lanes operating for only one hourly wage rather than six hourly wages,
for a 5x cost reduction in checkout clerk pay.
On 6/6/26 06:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Ah, trick. With Amazon links, you can delete everyhing after the /dp/
number.
https://www.amazon.com/PATIKIL-6mmx305mm-Gouging-Graphite-Electrode/dp/
B0CZQZSY7H
Then, you can also remove the name:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/ B0CZQZSY7H
The rest, is tracking information about you.
True.
But so much editing is More Work than it's
usually worth.
On 2026-06-07 15:25, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 23:12, Robert Riches wrote:
On 2026-06-05, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
I refuse to use self-checkout. The last thing I want is to hear a
mechanical voice nattering at me that I didn't put the bag on the
scale, or put items into the bag at the exact time it wants me to,
etc. etc. ad nausaeum. I'd rather deal with real live people -
it gives them jobs and they're much more pleasant to deal with.
Self-checkout at Home Despot was the worst. When buying a plastic
packet of a half dozen #8 flat washers, the scale wouldn't register
that I had dropped the merchandise in the bag. My preferred
solution to that is to press on the scale with my hand when dropping
smaller items in the bag.
...
The weird thing, 'self' ALWAYS has a human OVERSEEING
the proceedings. Why not just give 'em a check-out
terminal and do it in the usual fashion ???
If you pay attention, that human is overseeing the proceedings at four
or six terminals.
But the human is not receiving the pay of six checkout clerks, they get
the pay of only a single one.
So four, or six, customers are checking out in parallel, while the
overseer is being paid 1x the salary of a checkout clerk.
From the MBA's running the show perspective, they get six checkout
lanes operating for only one hourly wage rather than six hourly wages,
for a 5x cost reduction in checkout clerk pay.
At a lower speed, so not a 5x cost reduction.
On Sun, 7 Jun 2026 13:25:52 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
If you pay attention, that human is overseeing the proceedings at
four or six terminals.
But the human is not receiving the pay of six checkout clerks, they
get the pay of only a single one.
So four, or six, customers are checking out in parallel, while the
overseer is being paid 1x the salary of a checkout clerk.
From the MBA's running the show perspective, they get six checkout
lanes operating for only one hourly wage rather than six hourly
wages, for a 5x cost reduction in checkout clerk pay.
I have no idea about the pay scale but at least in one case I don't
think the human could operate as a checkout clerk. I think the store
had a policy of hiring the challenged as baggers and making sure
nobody is sneaking steaks out is within their abilities.
I do not mean that negatively. Providing work for those who can
function somewhat independently is a benefit and a step up from
sheltered workshops. Speaking from experience it isn't all roses for
the employer. It can be like herding needy cats.
On 6/6/26 05:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-06 05:10, Robert Riches wrote:
On 2026-06-05, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On 5 Jun 2026 03:12:31 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
Ah, the land of 'don't touch that gas pump'. I did notice if you're on a >>>> bike they ignore that. Last time I was in the state the eastern counties >>>> where there aren't enough people to provide pump attendants the law
didn't
apply.
Thankfully, for maybe year or so now, maybe two years, Oregon
_F_I_N_A_L_L_Y_ allows self-serve gasoline everywhere.˙ Stations
are required to keep "service" on at least 50% of the pumps, and
they can't give a discount for self-serve.˙ My wife has the pump
jockey do the job (and often fail to put the cap back on
properly, sometimes resulting in gasoline spilling out of the
fill neck while driving--not good).˙ I operate the pump myself.
Filling the tank so much that gasoline spills when moving, if the cap is
loose, means the tank has been filled way too much over the limit. This
is bad for a modern car and can cause an expensive breakdown.
True !
But I've watched MANY pump, then tap-tap-tap,
until the fuel is kinda literally dripping out
of the fill tube. THINK they're gaining something :-)
MOSTLY gaining a large dribble down the street for
five+ miles .....
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is my fav,
cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right by "self"
and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get to watch
each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say "THANKS !"
and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle anymore.
On 6/4/26 11:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote:
The sheer mass of copper often meant it was less likely to "flap inChrist on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? NOTHING goes
the breeze" compared to a skinny fiber. The entire south and east
coast of the USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant.
overhead without a steel support core.
NOW, typically. Not THAT long ago, it was just a PVC clad wire.
Expect LOTS of 'legacy' installs.
On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 20:40:08 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
This morning I was on a site that wanted my phone number and birth date
for ID. I was having a senior moment and couldn't remember the landline number. There are sites like whitepages.com that supposedly function like
the old white pages. It went off on a long search, prepared a report with everything I ever wanted to know about myself for a small sum, $11 iirc.
No simple phone number. I tried a couple of others and got the same sort
of bullshit. Finally one showed some teaser info with all but the last 4 digits obscured. That's what I needed so thank you and FAFO.
I never did find a site that just does a simple landline phone number
lookup. I was going to try dialing 411 but I don't know if that's even a thing anymore. 411.com is another useless site.
On Sun, 7 Jun 2026 05:40:39 -0400, c186282 wrote:
StarLink has good potential as a BACKUP, Just In Case.
Doesn't allow lots of bytes, but you could still do yer online
banking and such.
I'm going to give it a try. They claim 100 Mbps, no data cap, and no
charge for the hardware for $55 / month for residential. There's a 30 day trial period too. Installation is DIY, mostly putting the receiver
someplace and running an ethernet cable to the router. It's power over ethernet so no other messing around. It even has some scheme to
automatically heat the receiver when it snows.
I downloaded the app to the phone last night. You do a 360 degree scan of
the sky to find a suitable location. I don't know if what shows up as you scan is the real satellites but if it is there are a hell of a lot of
them.
https://www.therealyellowpages.com
You can still get the Yellow Pages in print everywhere,
but sadly, in
some places the telco, along with just about everything else, has gotten away with not funding the White Pages anymore so you may or may not be
able to get a free print copy.
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 11:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote:
The sheer mass of copper often meant it was less likely to "flap inChrist on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? NOTHING goes
the breeze" compared to a skinny fiber. The entire south and east
coast of the USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant.
overhead without a steel support core.
NOW, typically. Not THAT long ago, it was just a PVC clad wire.
Expect LOTS of 'legacy' installs.
Bzzt... No, wrong again.
There's always a steel cable somewhere, and
has always been one for a very long time. Either it is external, and
the "PVC bundle" is wired to it for support, or it is actually inside
the PVC clad wire as the central core. But there is a steel cable
somewhere. Copper is much too ductile to take the strain of
self-support between poles, and fiber simply does not appreciate much
of any tension in the cable at all. Physics dictates the steel cable
be present.
On 6/7/2026 8:44 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 20:40:08 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
This morning I was on a site that wanted my phone number and birth date
for ID. I was having a senior moment and couldn't remember the landline
number. There are sites like whitepages.com that supposedly function like
the old white pages. It went off on a long search, prepared a report with
everything I ever wanted to know about myself for a small sum, $11 iirc.
No simple phone number. I tried a couple of others and got the same sort
of bullshit. Finally one showed some teaser info with all but the last 4
digits obscured. That's what I needed so thank you and FAFO.
I never did find a site that just does a simple landline phone number
lookup. I was going to try dialing 411 but I don't know if that's even a
thing anymore. 411.com is another useless site.
That site has existed for a long time, it is https:// www.therealyellowpages.com
If you look up a city, you can download PDFs of the Yellow Pages and
White Pages *exactly* as the print edition would appear, along with
other special sections like the Blue/Green pages. I have done that many times. You can also do a simple search but I prefer to just browse the actual PDF like I would the book. No Internet access required and it's easier to do CTRL+F in the PDF then deal with the website.
I did it again just last week, actually. A household filed comments in
the wrong FCC docket - it was intended for one of the ongoing dockets
open about AT&T's California discontinuance applications, but was filed
in some other unrelated docket. Luckily, the comments had a first and
last name and city. I pulled the correct White Pages as a PDF from therealyellowpages.com, found their listing, called them, left them a message on their answering machine letting them know, and the next day,
the comments were filed in the correct docket.
You can still get the Yellow Pages in print everywhere, but sadly, in
some places the telco, along with just about everything else, has gotten away with not funding the White Pages anymore so you may or may not be
able to get a free print copy. Problematic for folks without Internet
access - the telco hasn't decided to offer free directory assistance as
a result of this change, after all! But you can call (877) 243-8339 M-F 8-4:45pm Eastern to get free copies of whatever is available for your area.
The physical books have gotten depressingly thin now. I could probably
rip one in half, but I'm not going to, might as well save them for a
museum some day, since they could be online only here in the next
publishing cycle.
On 6/7/2026 8:44 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 20:40:08 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
This morning I was on a site that wanted my phone number and birth date
for ID. I was having a senior moment and couldn't remember the landline
number. There are sites like whitepages.com that supposedly function like
the old white pages. It went off on a long search, prepared a report with
everything I ever wanted to know about myself for a small sum, $11 iirc.
No simple phone number. I tried a couple of others and got the same sort
of bullshit. Finally one showed some teaser info with all but the last 4
digits obscured. That's what I needed so thank you and FAFO.
I never did find a site that just does a simple landline phone number
lookup. I was going to try dialing 411 but I don't know if that's even a
thing anymore. 411.com is another useless site.
That site has existed for a long time, it is https:// www.therealyellowpages.com
If you look up a city, you can download PDFs of the Yellow Pages and
White Pages *exactly* as the print edition would appear, along with
other special sections like the Blue/Green pages. I have done that many times. You can also do a simple search but I prefer to just browse the actual PDF like I would the book. No Internet access required and it's easier to do CTRL+F in the PDF then deal with the website.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is my fav,
cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right by "self"
and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get to watch >>> each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say "THANKS !" >>> and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle anymore.
You know, now that you mention it, my local grocery no longer has a "N
or less items" line as well.
I hadn't noticed the omission yet, but it is no longer there.
On 2026-06-08 05:06, InterLinked wrote:
That site has existed for a long time, it is https://
www.therealyellowpages.com
If you look up a city, you can download PDFs of the Yellow Pages and
White Pages *exactly* as the print edition would appear, along with
other special sections like the Blue/Green pages. I have done that
many times. You can also do a simple search but I prefer to just
browse the actual PDF like I would the book. No Internet access
required and it's easier to do CTRL+F in the PDF then deal with the
website.
Around here, they disappeared for two reasons. One is because of the
data protection laws, the GPDR. Another is that they created a number
to call for that info that charged money for each query. Actually
several private services did this.
I don't know the current status.
On 6/7/26 21:00, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 11:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote:
The sheer mass of copper often meant it was less likely to "flap inChrist on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? NOTHING goes
the breeze" compared to a skinny fiber. The entire south and east
coast of the USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant.
overhead without a steel support core.
NOW, typically. Not THAT long ago, it was just a PVC clad wire.
Expect LOTS of 'legacy' installs.
Bzzt... No, wrong again.
Bzzt ... been there, SEEN it, STILL see it.
On 6/3/26 06:03, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-03 08:12, c186282 wrote:
Hmmmm ... by the 90s+ ... the number of connected customers
surely exceeded the number of practical wire pairs almost
everywhere. SOME kind of multiplexing scheme would have been
absolutely required.
NOT fully versed in that alas, a 'transitional' period, the exact
what/where/why/how is kinda obscure, hidden behind corporate
firewalls. DID work, but EXACTLY how is kinda obscure/proprietary/
guessed.
By the 90's, it was digital exchanges. The working I explained in
another post, it is not multiplexing. Simple concept, the
difficulty is the scale, and the details.
Wasn't digital EVERYWHERE. Maybe in larger cities.
On 2026-06-08 05:06, InterLinked wrote:
On 6/7/2026 8:44 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 07 Jun 2026 20:40:08 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
This morning I was on a site that wanted my phone number and birth date
for ID. I was having a senior moment and couldn't remember the landline
number. There are sites like whitepages.com that supposedly function
like
the old white pages. It went off on a long search, prepared a report
with
everything I ever wanted to know about myself for a small sum, $11 iirc. >>> No simple phone number. I tried a couple of others and got the same sort >>> of bullshit. Finally one showed some teaser info with all but the last 4 >>> digits obscured. That's what I needed so thank you and FAFO.
I never did find a site that just does a simple landline phone number
lookup. I was going to try dialing 411 but I don't know if that's even a >>> thing anymore. 411.com is another useless site.
That site has existed for a long time, it is https://
www.therealyellowpages.com
If you look up a city, you can download PDFs of the Yellow Pages and
White Pages *exactly* as the print edition would appear, along with
other special sections like the Blue/Green pages. I have done that
many times. You can also do a simple search but I prefer to just
browse the actual PDF like I would the book. No Internet access
required and it's easier to do CTRL+F in the PDF then deal with the
website.
Around here, they disappeared for two reasons. One is because of the
data protection laws, the GPDR. Another is that they created a number to call for that info that charged money for each query. Actually several private services did this.
I don't know the current status.
On 2026-06-08 02:52, Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙ I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
˙˙˙ get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is my fav,
˙˙˙ cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right by "self" >>>> ˙˙˙ and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get to
watch
˙˙˙ each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say
"THANKS !"
˙˙˙ and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle anymore.
You know, now that you mention it, my local grocery no longer has a "N
or less items" line as well.
I hadn't noticed the omission yet, but it is no longer there.
My big supermarket here, Carrefour, has converted the fast lane (baskets only, no carts) to self checkout lane. 6 machines and one overseer.
Works fine.
On 6/7/26 21:00, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 11:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote:
The sheer mass of copper often meant it was less likely to "flap inChrist on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? NOTHING goes
the breeze" compared to a skinny fiber. The entire south and east
coast of the USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant.
overhead without a steel support core.
NOW, typically. Not THAT long ago, it was just a PVC clad wire.
Expect LOTS of 'legacy' installs.
Bzzt... No, wrong again.
Bzzt ... been there, SEEN it, STILL see it.
But I don't live in the Big City.
There's always a steel cable somewhere, and
has always been one for a very long time. Either it is external, and
the "PVC bundle" is wired to it for support, or it is actually inside
the PVC clad wire as the central core. But there is a steel cable
somewhere. Copper is much too ductile to take the strain of
self-support between poles, and fiber simply does not appreciate much
of any tension in the cable at all. Physics dictates the steel cable
be present.
For not TOO long runs, the jacketing material plus
the copper are (usually) Strong Enough.
On Mon, 8 Jun 2026 00:23:27 -0400, c186282 wrote:
100mbps is pretty slow by today's GB+ standards, but it's still good
enough to do the usual online biz and banking stuff in case of
emergency. Need JUST enough power to fire up the box and a laptop for
like 30 minutes a day.
Are you shitting me?
https://fiber.google.com/speedtest/ shows 6.5 Mbps down. https:// www.speedtest.net/ shows 3.59 Mbps down. Neither show upload which I
assume is related to the Verizon IP juggling.
I watch streaming movies and TV shows, youtube videos, and so forth with
no buffering, No, I don't have a houseful of kids playing HD games or streaming HD videos.
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/7/26 21:00, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 11:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote:
The sheer mass of copper often meant it was less likely to "flap in >>>>>> the breeze" compared to a skinny fiber. The entire south and east >>>>>> coast of the USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant. >>>>>>Christ on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? NOTHING goes
overhead without a steel support core.
NOW, typically. Not THAT long ago, it was just a PVC clad wire.
Expect LOTS of 'legacy' installs.
Bzzt... No, wrong again.
Bzzt ... been there, SEEN it, STILL see it.
Then you missed something.
On 2026-06-08, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/7/26 21:00, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 11:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote:
The sheer mass of copper often meant it was less likely to "flap in >>>>>> the breeze" compared to a skinny fiber. The entire south and east >>>>>> coast of the USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant. >>>>>>Christ on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? NOTHING goes
overhead without a steel support core.
NOW, typically. Not THAT long ago, it was just a PVC clad wire.
Expect LOTS of 'legacy' installs.
Bzzt... No, wrong again.
Bzzt ... been there, SEEN it, STILL see it.
But I don't live in the Big City.
There's always a steel cable somewhere, and
has always been one for a very long time. Either it is external, and
the "PVC bundle" is wired to it for support, or it is actually inside
the PVC clad wire as the central core. But there is a steel cable
somewhere. Copper is much too ductile to take the strain of
self-support between poles, and fiber simply does not appreciate much
of any tension in the cable at all. Physics dictates the steel cable
be present.
For not TOO long runs, the jacketing material plus
the copper are (usually) Strong Enough.
Is there any chance the wire was steel with copper plating to
resist rusting/corrosion in case the plastic or rubber sheath
were to be damaged?
On 6/8/26 03:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-08 02:52, Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙ I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
˙˙˙ get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is my fav, >>>>> ˙˙˙ cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right by "self" >>>>> ˙˙˙ and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get to
watch
˙˙˙ each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say
"THANKS !"
˙˙˙ and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle
anymore.
You know, now that you mention it, my local grocery no longer has a "N
or less items" line as well.
I hadn't noticed the omission yet, but it is no longer there.
My big supermarket here, Carrefour, has converted the fast lane
(baskets only, no carts) to self checkout lane. 6 machines and one
overseer. Works fine.
˙ No, not REALLY.
˙ You WILL be claimed/charged/inconvenienced/blacklisted
˙ as a "shop-lifter" pretty soon. It'll COST YOU and don't
˙ expect to get much back. With face-ID the instant you
˙ arrive the store dick will be shadowing you, SURE you
˙ are sticking things into yer pockets. All they have to
˙ do is SAY you were, the cops will be on their side.
˙ Retailers are Big Money, you're NOT.
˙ Increasing lawsuits related are why WalMart and some
˙ others are REMOVING those 'self' lanes now.
˙ MORE lawsuits ! MANY more !
˙ Meanwhile I'll use the 'under-10' or 'over-10' human
˙ tended lanes. Want humans, and cams, to see I'm being
˙ honest. Don't wear coats/similar in there either even
˙ if it's butt-freezin' cold.
˙ Yea, it's a kind of war now.
On Mon, 8 Jun 2026 00:23:27 -0400, c186282 wrote:
100mbps is pretty slow by today's GB+ standards, but it's still good
enough to do the usual online biz and banking stuff in case of
emergency. Need JUST enough power to fire up the box and a laptop for
like 30 minutes a day.
Are you shitting me?
https://fiber.google.com/speedtest/ shows 6.5 Mbps down. https:// www.speedtest.net/ shows 3.59 Mbps down. Neither show upload which I
assume is related to the Verizon IP juggling.
I watch streaming movies and TV shows, youtube videos, and so forth with
no buffering, No, I don't have a houseful of kids playing HD games or streaming HD videos.
On 2026-06-09 05:19, c186282 wrote:
On 6/8/26 03:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-08 02:52, Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙ I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
˙˙˙ get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is my fav, >>>>>> ˙˙˙ cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right by "self" >>>>>> ˙˙˙ and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get
to watch
˙˙˙ each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say
"THANKS !"
˙˙˙ and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle
anymore.
You know, now that you mention it, my local grocery no longer has a "N >>>> or less items" line as well.
I hadn't noticed the omission yet, but it is no longer there.
My big supermarket here, Carrefour, has converted the fast lane
(baskets only, no carts) to self checkout lane. 6 machines and one
overseer. Works fine.
˙ No, not REALLY.
˙ You WILL be claimed/charged/inconvenienced/blacklisted
˙ as a "shop-lifter" pretty soon. It'll COST YOU and don't
˙ expect to get much back. With face-ID the instant you
˙ arrive the store dick will be shadowing you, SURE you
˙ are sticking things into yer pockets. All they have to
˙ do is SAY you were, the cops will be on their side.
˙ Retailers are Big Money, you're NOT.
That's out in the colonies, not here :-P
No, they can not use face-id on the public, it is against the
GPDR. One place tried and they got a hefty fine.
˙ Increasing lawsuits related are why WalMart and some
˙ others are REMOVING those 'self' lanes now.
˙ MORE lawsuits ! MANY more !
˙ Meanwhile I'll use the 'under-10' or 'over-10' human
˙ tended lanes. Want humans, and cams, to see I'm being
˙ honest. Don't wear coats/similar in there either even
˙ if it's butt-freezin' cold.
˙ Yea, it's a kind of war now.
I often carry a bag into the supermarket with an insulated bag for
frozen or cold products, and inside, a block of ice in a sealed
plastic container. When I exit, I sometimes show it so that they know
the bag already contains something heavy when empty. Most employees
say something like "ah, don't bother". After several times being told
"don't care", I stopped showing it unasked.
Except a particular supermarket where they ask. It is a cooperative.
On 2026-06-08, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jun 2026 00:23:27 -0400, c186282 wrote:
100mbps is pretty slow by today's GB+ standards, but it's still good
enough to do the usual online biz and banking stuff in case of
emergency. Need JUST enough power to fire up the box and a laptop for >>> like 30 minutes a day.
Are you shitting me?
https://fiber.google.com/speedtest/ shows 6.5 Mbps down. https://
www.speedtest.net/ shows 3.59 Mbps down. Neither show upload which I
assume is related to the Verizon IP juggling.
I watch streaming movies and TV shows, youtube videos, and so forth with
no buffering, No, I don't have a houseful of kids playing HD games or
streaming HD videos.
100mbps can be quite decent, although I suppose the comment was in
regard to what is *available* with the tech. And, for that, gigabit, or
at least several hundred mbps, should be feasible at least with
fiber-based offerings, barring fancy ideas of overcharging consumers.
As for video streaming, this has probably more to do with the codecs
used, which do allow a lot without using much bandwidth. Although
sometimes a few codecs to so at the expense of quite increased processor usage, possibly requiring hardware acceleration support for decent
playback.
On 6/8/26 12:50, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/7/26 21:00, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 11:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote:
The sheer mass of copper often meant it was less likely to "flap in >>>>>>> the breeze" compared to a skinny fiber. The entire south and east >>>>>>> coast of the USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant. >>>>>>>Christ on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? NOTHING goes >>>>>> overhead without a steel support core.
NOW, typically. Not THAT long ago, it was just a PVC clad wire. >>>>> Expect LOTS of 'legacy' installs.
Bzzt... No, wrong again.
Bzzt ... been there, SEEN it, STILL see it.
Then you missed something.
Nope. Not at all.
I'm kind of "out in the country". They haven't
replaced wires for 30+ years. Multiple phone
feeds on the poles.
My GUESS is that, regardless of locale, "city"
is different from 'country'.
The old phone cables ... strong plastic jacket
plus SOMETIMES like a fiber under-wrap, were
strong enough to cope so long as the poles were
not TOO far apart. Hey, lowest-cost solution.
Wonder how much such "legacy" still exists ?
On 2026-06-09, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-09 05:19, c186282 wrote:
On 6/8/26 03:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-08 02:52, Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙ I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
˙˙˙ get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is my fav, >>>>>>> ˙˙˙ cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right by "self" >>>>>>> ˙˙˙ and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get >>>>>>> to watch
˙˙˙ each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say
"THANKS !"
˙˙˙ and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle
anymore.
You know, now that you mention it, my local grocery no longer has a "N >>>>> or less items" line as well.
I hadn't noticed the omission yet, but it is no longer there.
My big supermarket here, Carrefour, has converted the fast lane
(baskets only, no carts) to self checkout lane. 6 machines and one
overseer. Works fine.
˙ No, not REALLY.
˙ You WILL be claimed/charged/inconvenienced/blacklisted
˙ as a "shop-lifter" pretty soon. It'll COST YOU and don't
˙ expect to get much back. With face-ID the instant you
˙ arrive the store dick will be shadowing you, SURE you
˙ are sticking things into yer pockets. All they have to
˙ do is SAY you were, the cops will be on their side.
˙ Retailers are Big Money, you're NOT.
That's out in the colonies, not here :-P
No, they can not use face-id on the public, it is against the
GPDR. One place tried and they got a hefty fine.
˙ Increasing lawsuits related are why WalMart and some
˙ others are REMOVING those 'self' lanes now.
˙ MORE lawsuits ! MANY more !
˙ Meanwhile I'll use the 'under-10' or 'over-10' human
˙ tended lanes. Want humans, and cams, to see I'm being
˙ honest. Don't wear coats/similar in there either even
˙ if it's butt-freezin' cold.
˙ Yea, it's a kind of war now.
I often carry a bag into the supermarket with an insulated bag for
frozen or cold products, and inside, a block of ice in a sealed
plastic container. When I exit, I sometimes show it so that they know
the bag already contains something heavy when empty. Most employees
say something like "ah, don't bother". After several times being told
"don't care", I stopped showing it unasked.
Except a particular supermarket where they ask. It is a cooperative.
A lot of places where I shop don't do that nowadays, although a
decade or two ago some might have done that, but I will draw the line at whether they request it from everyone or just from specific
containers.
If they ask me about bags when people are around with purses and
backpacks and aren't asked, or if they ask about my backpack when people
with purses/handbags (maybe there's a better word for this...) don't get asked, you can imagine that's not something to be lightly accepted.
I guess the push to reuse bags might also have changed habits in stores
where staff used to inquire about their contents.
There's also a matter that a world where you're expected to walk into a supermarket with nothing, no personal items and no products from other
shops, might also be a world with a car-centric view, where they somehow expect people don't need to have stuff on them when they go shop for something else, while the reality is that someone who's shopping for a
few items on the way home might have their handbag/backpack/... and also
a bag from the previous place they made business at.
(I've, funnily, got more inquiries because of books, as some lending libraries have used tags that also trigger store alarms :-) )
There's also a matter that a world where you're expected to walk into a supermarket with nothing, no personal items and no products from other
shops, might also be a world with a car-centric view, where they somehow expect people don't need to have stuff on them when they go shop for something else, while the reality is that someone who's shopping for a
few items on the way home might have their handbag/backpack/... and also
a bag from the previous place they made business at.
˙ Kind of agree with the sentiment that copper should
˙ always be at hand for 'emergency' communications at
˙ a minimum. Towers die, cell contracts expire, copper
˙ keeps on going.
˙ In short, never throw away a good hardwire network.
On Tue, 9 Jun 2026 15:51:44 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
For video streaming, latency and jitter matter much more than raw
bandwidth. Many video streams do not even stress a 10Mbit pipe
bandwidth wise, but are very sensitive to jitter in the flow rate (they
very much prefer all the packets arrive in the expected time).
It doesn't occur frequently but at times the Amazon or Netflix stream
video will be okay but the sound will be like the old days of playing a 45 rpm record at 16 rpm. Restarting the feed fixes it.
On 2026-06-09 05:19, c186282 wrote:
On 6/8/26 03:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-08 02:52, Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙ I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
˙˙˙ get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is my fav, >>>>>> ˙˙˙ cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right by
"self"
˙˙˙ and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get to >>>>>> watch
˙˙˙ each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say
"THANKS !"
˙˙˙ and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle
anymore.
You know, now that you mention it, my local grocery no longer has a "N >>>> or less items" line as well.
I hadn't noticed the omission yet, but it is no longer there.
My big supermarket here, Carrefour, has converted the fast lane
(baskets only, no carts) to self checkout lane. 6 machines and one
overseer. Works fine.
˙˙ No, not REALLY.
˙˙ You WILL be claimed/charged/inconvenienced/blacklisted
˙˙ as a "shop-lifter" pretty soon. It'll COST YOU and don't
˙˙ expect to get much back. With face-ID the instant you
˙˙ arrive the store dick will be shadowing you, SURE you
˙˙ are sticking things into yer pockets. All they have to
˙˙ do is SAY you were, the cops will be on their side.
˙˙ Retailers are Big Money, you're NOT.
That's out in the colonies, not here :-P
No, they can not use face-id on the public, it is against the GPDR. One place tried and they got a hefty fine.
˙˙ Increasing lawsuits related are why WalMart and some
˙˙ others are REMOVING those 'self' lanes now.
˙˙ MORE lawsuits ! MANY more !
˙˙ Meanwhile I'll use the 'under-10' or 'over-10' human
˙˙ tended lanes. Want humans, and cams, to see I'm being
˙˙ honest. Don't wear coats/similar in there either even
˙˙ if it's butt-freezin' cold.
˙˙ Yea, it's a kind of war now.
I often carry a bag into the supermarket with an insulated bag for
frozen or cold products, and inside, a block of ice in a sealed plastic container. When I exit, I sometimes show it so that they know the bag already contains something heavy when empty. Most employees say
something like "ah, don't bother". After several times being told "don't care", I stopped showing it unasked.
Except a particular supermarket where they ask. It is a cooperative.
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/8/26 12:50, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/7/26 21:00, Rich wrote:
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 6/4/26 11:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2026 15:57, c186282 wrote:
The sheer mass of copper often meant it was less likely to "flap in >>>>>>>> the breeze" compared to a skinny fiber. The entire south and east >>>>>>>> coast of the USA get big HURRICANES ... so 'flapping' is relevant. >>>>>>>>Christ on a bike, Is there no end to your ignorance? NOTHING goes >>>>>>> overhead without a steel support core.
NOW, typically. Not THAT long ago, it was just a PVC clad wire. >>>>>> Expect LOTS of 'legacy' installs.
Bzzt... No, wrong again.
Bzzt ... been there, SEEN it, STILL see it.
Then you missed something.
Nope. Not at all.
I'm kind of "out in the country". They haven't
replaced wires for 30+ years. Multiple phone
feeds on the poles.
My GUESS is that, regardless of locale, "city"
is different from 'country'.
The old phone cables ... strong plastic jacket
plus SOMETIMES like a fiber under-wrap, were
strong enough to cope so long as the poles were
not TOO far apart. Hey, lowest-cost solution.
That 'fiber underwrap' was performing the same duties as the steel core
in the main pole wires. It is the "tension member" that takes the
tension stress of hanging between the poles. The copper, or the PVC
jacket, are not the components that handle that tension.
The smaller, single pair (or very small multi-pair) drop cables that go
to individual homes/buildings are under less tension than the main pole cables, so they can be cheaper by using a fiber tension member rather
than a steel cable. But the purpose is the same, to take the tension
load of being strung so that the copper wires do not have to do so.
Also, keep in mind that even telephone copper pairs were "twisted pair" wiring. What happens when you apply tension to a twisted pair? That's right, the twist tends to untwist. And untwisting the twist reduces
the noise immunity performance of the "twisted pairs". You simply do
not want the actual copper wires to receive any of the tension from
hanging in the air.
Wonder how much such "legacy" still exists ?
Out in the sticks, quite a lot of it, although it is now largely
disjoint bits and pieces connected to fully digital fiber connection
points for the rest of the backhaul.
On 2026-06-09 12:45, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-06-09, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-09 05:19, c186282 wrote:
On 6/8/26 03:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-08 02:52, Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙˙ I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
˙˙˙˙ get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is >>>>>>>> my fav,
˙˙˙˙ cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right by >>>>>>>> "self"
˙˙˙˙ and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get >>>>>>>> to watch
˙˙˙˙ each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say >>>>>>>> "THANKS !"
˙˙˙˙ and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle
anymore.
You know, now that you mention it, my local grocery no longer has >>>>>> a "N
or less items" line as well.
I hadn't noticed the omission yet, but it is no longer there.
My big supermarket here, Carrefour, has converted the fast lane
(baskets only, no carts) to self checkout lane. 6 machines and one
overseer. Works fine.
˙ ˙ No, not REALLY.
˙ ˙ You WILL be claimed/charged/inconvenienced/blacklisted
˙ ˙ as a "shop-lifter" pretty soon. It'll COST YOU and don't
˙ ˙ expect to get much back. With face-ID the instant you
˙ ˙ arrive the store dick will be shadowing you, SURE you
˙ ˙ are sticking things into yer pockets. All they have to
˙ ˙ do is SAY you were, the cops will be on their side.
˙ ˙ Retailers are Big Money, you're NOT.
That's out in the colonies, not here :-P
No, they can not use face-id on the public, it is against the
GPDR. One place tried and they got a hefty fine.
˙ ˙ Increasing lawsuits related are why WalMart and some
˙ ˙ others are REMOVING those 'self' lanes now.
˙ ˙ MORE lawsuits ! MANY more !
˙ ˙ Meanwhile I'll use the 'under-10' or 'over-10' human
˙ ˙ tended lanes. Want humans, and cams, to see I'm being
˙ ˙ honest. Don't wear coats/similar in there either even
˙ ˙ if it's butt-freezin' cold.
˙ ˙ Yea, it's a kind of war now.
I often carry a bag into the supermarket with an insulated bag for
frozen or cold products, and inside, a block of ice in a sealed
plastic container. When I exit, I sometimes show it so that they know
the bag already contains something heavy when empty. Most employees
say something like "ah, don't bother". After several times being told
"don't care", I stopped showing it unasked.
Except a particular supermarket where they ask. It is a cooperative.
A lot of places where I shop don't do that nowadays, although a
decade or two ago some might have done that, but I will draw the line at
whether they request it from everyone or just from specific
containers.
If they ask me about bags when people are around with purses and
backpacks and aren't asked, or if they ask about my backpack when people
with purses/handbags (maybe there's a better word for this...) don't get
asked, you can imagine that's not something to be lightly accepted.
I guess the push to reuse bags might also have changed habits in stores
where staff used to inquire about their contents.
Indeed, it is a clearly reused shop bag. They had to change ways of
acting when they asked us to use them.
I don't make a fuss, if they want to see it, I show it it.
On 2026-06-09, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
There's also a matter that a world where you're expected to walk into a
supermarket with nothing, no personal items and no products from other
shops, might also be a world with a car-centric view, where they somehow
expect people don't need to have stuff on them when they go shop for
something else, while the reality is that someone who's shopping for a
few items on the way home might have their handbag/backpack/... and also
a bag from the previous place they made business at.
In cases like that I make sure I have the receipt from the previous shop handy and ready to display.
On Tue, 9 Jun 2026 02:36:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Hmmm ... my connection has very recently IMPROVED. fast.com sez
45mbps. Maybe they added a new antenna ?
I did see some improvement when Verizon put up a new tower a little
closer. Towers here follow population density and major highways. Fiber
and cable TV is the same.
Anyway, I can usually "stream" ... but rarely do. Pref 'channel
surfing' more 'traditional' TV.
Last time I scanned I think I get 5 OTA channels, some with several
subbands. PBS has 4, maybe 5. One is strictly kid shows. I check it out Saturday night. Sometimes there is a Austin City Limits segment with
someone I'm interested in and there is a locally produced show that
features music that leans toward alt country, bluegrass, and so forth. Sometimes it's a German show with subtitles, and maybe a French one. At
least it sounds like French.
A couple of times PBS had nothing of interest and a quick scan would find
an old movie or something I would watch. Mostly it's a wasteland.
On Tue, 09 Jun 2026 11:30:06 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:
100mbps can be quite decent, although I suppose the comment was in
regard to what is *available* with the tech. And, for that, gigabit, or
at least several hundred mbps, should be feasible at least with
fiber-based offerings, barring fancy ideas of overcharging consumers.
I'm in a rural area and I do not expect fiber anytime soon if ever. They
lay fiber towards the areas that are undergoing development.
On Tue, 9 Jun 2026 15:51:44 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
For video streaming, latency and jitter matter much more than raw
bandwidth. Many video streams do not even stress a 10Mbit pipe
bandwidth wise, but are very sensitive to jitter in the flow rate (they
very much prefer all the packets arrive in the expected time).
It doesn't occur frequently but at times the Amazon or Netflix stream
video will be okay but the sound will be like the old days of playing a 45 rpm record at 16 rpm. Restarting the feed fixes it.
On 6/9/26 13:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-09 12:45, Nuno Silva wrote:
On 2026-06-09, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-09 05:19, c186282 wrote:
On 6/8/26 03:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-08 02:52, Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙˙ I go to the food store maybe every ten days to
˙˙˙˙ get a few items (now VERY expensive - but half of that is >>>>>>>>> my fav,
˙˙˙˙ cashew nuts). It's always "10 items or less". Walk right >>>>>>>>> by "self"
˙˙˙˙ and go to the 10-items lane instead. Get to say "Hi !", get >>>>>>>>> to watch
˙˙˙˙ each item individually scanned by the employee. Get to say >>>>>>>>> "THANKS !"
˙˙˙˙ and get a little smile. MUCH better.
Most of the stores in town don't have a 'n items or less' aisle >>>>>>>> anymore.
You know, now that you mention it, my local grocery no longer has >>>>>>> a "N
or less items" line as well.
I hadn't noticed the omission yet, but it is no longer there.
My big supermarket here, Carrefour, has converted the fast lane
(baskets only, no carts) to self checkout lane. 6 machines and one >>>>>> overseer. Works fine.
˙ ˙ No, not REALLY.
˙ ˙ You WILL be claimed/charged/inconvenienced/blacklisted
˙ ˙ as a "shop-lifter" pretty soon. It'll COST YOU and don't
˙ ˙ expect to get much back. With face-ID the instant you
˙ ˙ arrive the store dick will be shadowing you, SURE you
˙ ˙ are sticking things into yer pockets. All they have to
˙ ˙ do is SAY you were, the cops will be on their side.
˙ ˙ Retailers are Big Money, you're NOT.
That's out in the colonies, not here :-P
No, they can not use face-id on the public, it is against the
GPDR. One place tried and they got a hefty fine.
˙ ˙ Increasing lawsuits related are why WalMart and some
˙ ˙ others are REMOVING those 'self' lanes now.
˙ ˙ MORE lawsuits ! MANY more !
˙ ˙ Meanwhile I'll use the 'under-10' or 'over-10' human
˙ ˙ tended lanes. Want humans, and cams, to see I'm being
˙ ˙ honest. Don't wear coats/similar in there either even
˙ ˙ if it's butt-freezin' cold.
˙ ˙ Yea, it's a kind of war now.
I often carry a bag into the supermarket with an insulated bag for
frozen or cold products, and inside, a block of ice in a sealed
plastic container. When I exit, I sometimes show it so that they know
the bag already contains something heavy when empty. Most employees
say something like "ah, don't bother". After several times being told
"don't care", I stopped showing it unasked.
Except a particular supermarket where they ask. It is a cooperative.
A lot of places where I shop don't do that nowadays, although a
decade or two ago some might have done that, but I will draw the line at >>> whether they request it from everyone or just from specific
containers.
If they ask me about bags when people are around with purses and
backpacks and aren't asked, or if they ask about my backpack when people >>> with purses/handbags (maybe there's a better word for this...) don't get >>> asked, you can imagine that's not something to be lightly accepted.
I guess the push to reuse bags might also have changed habits in stores
where staff used to inquire about their contents.
Indeed, it is a clearly reused shop bag. They had to change ways of
acting when they asked us to use them.
I don't make a fuss, if they want to see it, I show it it.
˙ If they don't like yer face they'll SWEAR you
˙ stole it.
˙ Still have the paper receipt ??? :-)
On 6/9/26 14:46, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jun 2026 15:51:44 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
For video streaming, latency and jitter matter much more than raw
bandwidth.˙ Many video streams do not even stress a 10Mbit pipe
bandwidth wise, but are very sensitive to jitter in the flow rate (they
very much prefer all the packets arrive in the expected time).
It doesn't occur frequently but at times the Amazon or Netflix stream
video will be okay but the sound will be like the old days of playing
a 45
rpm record at 16 rpm. Restarting the feed fixes it.
˙ Oooh ! Never encountered THAT !
˙ For me, 'inadequate bandwidth' is mostly just
˙ random pauses, too-small buffers. You CAN enlarge
˙ said buffers in the common browsers though.
˙ YouTube is mostly USELESS now ... annoying 'commercials'
˙ every five minutes or less. No, NOT gonna make an account.
˙ Was trying to study pre-Sumerian cultures the other day ...
˙ quit ... not worth the pain.
˙ "PlutoTV" is OK however ... but DOES have more
˙ conventional 'commercials' just like broadcast.
˙ Esp good for 'old' TV shows. Even has the old
˙ "Dr. Who" stuff - missed a LOT of those in the
˙ USA ...
˙ "DailyMotion" is SOMETIMES kind of OK, but does
˙ not have nearly as much Stuff. Did find some
˙ "Captain Video" serials from the 40s/50s though.
˙ (Capt Video seems to work from some obscure
˙ mountain stronghold, has a 'videotron' that
˙ can see into things even from 50 miles away.
˙ Tends to then go to obscure planets)
On 6/9/26 04:50, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-09 05:19, c186282 wrote:
On 6/8/26 03:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-08 02:52, Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 23:38:25 -0400, c186282 wrote:
My big supermarket here, Carrefour, has converted the fast lane
(baskets only, no carts) to self checkout lane. 6 machines and one
overseer. Works fine.
˙˙ No, not REALLY.
˙˙ You WILL be claimed/charged/inconvenienced/blacklisted
˙˙ as a "shop-lifter" pretty soon. It'll COST YOU and don't
˙˙ expect to get much back. With face-ID the instant you
˙˙ arrive the store dick will be shadowing you, SURE you
˙˙ are sticking things into yer pockets. All they have to
˙˙ do is SAY you were, the cops will be on their side.
˙˙ Retailers are Big Money, you're NOT.
That's out in the colonies, not here :-P
No, they can not use face-id on the public, it is against the GPDR.
One place tried and they got a hefty fine.
˙ USA you can use face-ID on any one any time. The
˙ State MAY sometimes be somewhat restricted but
˙ commercial entities can do as they please. Our
˙ 'Bill Of Rights' applies to citizen-vs-State,
˙ not citizen-vs-citizen.
˙˙ Increasing lawsuits related are why WalMart and some
˙˙ others are REMOVING those 'self' lanes now.
˙˙ MORE lawsuits ! MANY more !
˙˙ Meanwhile I'll use the 'under-10' or 'over-10' human
˙˙ tended lanes. Want humans, and cams, to see I'm being
˙˙ honest. Don't wear coats/similar in there either even
˙˙ if it's butt-freezin' cold.
˙˙ Yea, it's a kind of war now.
I often carry a bag into the supermarket with an insulated bag for
frozen or cold products, and inside, a block of ice in a sealed
plastic container. When I exit, I sometimes show it so that they know
the bag already contains something heavy when empty. Most employees
say something like "ah, don't bother". After several times being told
"don't care", I stopped showing it unasked.
˙ Ah, so you ARE concerned about false accusations ... !
Except a particular supermarket where they ask. It is a cooperative.
˙ Until they become sick of 'cooperative' ...
˙ It's not just USA ... in the past decades citizens
˙ are seen as the most sinister villains - which MAY
˙ be correct too often now - with the State seen almost
˙ as a high holy 'protector'. "Civility" has gone away,
˙ maybe by Plan it sometimes appears.
˙ A few recent news-making crimes in USA - now there
˙ are people, not SURE who they work for, screaming
˙ on the news that we need far MORE surveillance.
˙ The world of Orwell didn't have to be imposed.
˙ The All-Seeing Eye is no longer divine, but has
˙ a corporate logo printed on.
˙ This is NOT good.
˙ "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase
˙ a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor
˙ Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
˙ Well - We Are There. GUESS how this plays out.
On 2026-06-10 10:08, c186282 wrote:
˙ YouTube is mostly USELESS now ... annoying 'commercials'
˙ every five minutes or less. No, NOT gonna make an account.
˙ Was trying to study pre-Sumerian cultures the other day ...
˙ quit ... not worth the pain.
Just install "uBlock Origin" in Firefox and go to youtube. Works fine.
Am 29.05.26 um 03:34 schrieb c186282:
˙ In short, never throw away a good hardwire network.
The network is one part - the exchanges are the other. In Germany, the
old analog exchanges that had mechanical parts, were replaced by ISDN exchanges with analog port support for customers who wanted analog phone service. All of the product lines were discontinued years ago - getting spare parts is now a hard task. At one time, it will not be possible, as various different ICs and microprocessors were used - that are not
produced anymore.
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 03:14:45 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 6/9/26 14:31, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-09, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
There's also a matter that a world where you're expected to walk into
a supermarket with nothing, no personal items and no products from
other shops, might also be a world with a car-centric view, where they >>>> somehow expect people don't need to have stuff on them when they go
shop for something else, while the reality is that someone who's
shopping for a few items on the way home might have their
handbag/backpack/... and also a bag from the previous place they made
business at.
In cases like that I make sure I have the receipt from the previous
shop handy and ready to display.
I have giant bags/boxes of receipts, some back into the 80s. FINDING
a PARTICULAR one though ...
Receipts from retail purchases have a very short life with me. 'Do you
want the receipt for that sack of Friskies?' Like the cats are going to bitch about food and I'd want to return it.
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 03:14:45 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 6/9/26 14:31, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-09, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
There's also a matter that a world where you're expected to walk into
a supermarket with nothing, no personal items and no products from
other shops, might also be a world with a car-centric view, where they >>>> somehow expect people don't need to have stuff on them when they go
shop for something else, while the reality is that someone who's
shopping for a few items on the way home might have their
handbag/backpack/... and also a bag from the previous place they made
business at.
In cases like that I make sure I have the receipt from the previous
shop handy and ready to display.
I have giant bags/boxes of receipts, some back into the 80s. FINDING
a PARTICULAR one though ...
Receipts from retail purchases have a very short life with me. 'Do you
want the receipt for that sack of Friskies?' Like the cats are going to bitch about food and I'd want to return it.
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 04:08:32 -0400, c186282 wrote:
YouTube is mostly USELESS now ... annoying 'commercials' every five
minutes or less. No, NOT gonna make an account. Was trying to study
pre-Sumerian cultures the other day ...
quit ... not worth the pain.
Maybe I live a charmed life but with Brave youtube commercials are so rare
as to be a surprise.
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 03:30:34 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I can get maybe 20-25 OTA channels, and DO have a little outdoor
antenna for that. Update the channel registry every so often.
I get 4. There used to be a religious channel but it didn't survive the digital conversion. My high tech digital antenna is a rabbit ears I bought back in the '90s that was designed to mount on the rain channel on a truck roof. The rotator is me twisting the PVC mast. I have the PBS orientation marked in case the wind blows the antenna around.
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 19:39:12 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
This is the part that c186282 seems to not be aware of (or be ignoring).
C123456 is quite good at ignoring inconvenient facts.
On 2026-06-10, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 03:14:45 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 6/9/26 14:31, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-09, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
There's also a matter that a world where you're expected to walk into >>>>> a supermarket with nothing, no personal items and no products from
other shops, might also be a world with a car-centric view, where they >>>>> somehow expect people don't need to have stuff on them when they go
shop for something else, while the reality is that someone who's
shopping for a few items on the way home might have their
handbag/backpack/... and also a bag from the previous place they made >>>>> business at.
In cases like that I make sure I have the receipt from the previous
shop handy and ready to display.
I have giant bags/boxes of receipts, some back into the 80s. FINDING >>> a PARTICULAR one though ...
Receipts from retail purchases have a very short life with me. 'Do you
want the receipt for that sack of Friskies?' Like the cats are going to
bitch about food and I'd want to return it.
I just stuff them in my wallet, and clean them out every few days.
They make great note paper.
On 6/10/26 15:25, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 03:14:45 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 6/9/26 14:31, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-09, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
There's also a matter that a world where you're expected to walk into >>>>> a supermarket with nothing, no personal items and no products from
other shops, might also be a world with a car-centric view, where they >>>>> somehow expect people don't need to have stuff on them when they go
shop for something else, while the reality is that someone who's
shopping for a few items on the way home might have their
handbag/backpack/... and also a bag from the previous place they made >>>>> business at.
In cases like that I make sure I have the receipt from the previous
shop handy and ready to display.
˙˙˙ I have giant bags/boxes of receipts, some back into the 80s. FINDING >>> ˙˙˙ a PARTICULAR one though ...
Receipts from retail purchases have a very short life with me. 'Do you
want the receipt for that sack of Friskies?'˙ Like the cats are going to
bitch about food and I'd want to return it.
˙ For the shit I buy from 7-11 ... really don't need to
˙ keep 'em very long ... but I just automatically jam
˙ them into a stack and thus they REMAIN. Think of them
˙ as documentation for where I've been and when Just In Case.
˙ For more 'capital' purchases and some other items, DO keep
˙ 'em for a decade or more.
˙ Also have paperwork for stuff dead relatives bought.
˙ Anyway, kinda decided, will NEVER really thin them out.
˙ WAY too much work. Once I'm dead Somebody Else can toss
˙ them en-masse. Not My Problem anymore.
˙ "Well Mr. RBowman, can you account for where you were
˙ on June 17th 2003 at 2PM ??? Why NOT sir ??? WE assert
˙ you're hiding doing Evil Things then !!! PROVE your
˙ innocence or we will proceed with the State's conclusions !"
˙ Yea, it IS getting That Bad.
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 03:30:34 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I can get maybe 20-25 OTA channels, and DO have a little outdoor
antenna for that. Update the channel registry every so often.
I get 4. There used to be a religious channel but it didn't survive the digital conversion. My high tech digital antenna is a rabbit ears I bought back in the '90s that was designed to mount on the rain channel on a truck roof. The rotator is me twisting the PVC mast. I have the PBS orientation marked in case the wind blows the antenna around.
Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
Am 29.05.26 um 03:34 schrieb c186282:
˙ In short, never throw away a good hardwire network.
The network is one part - the exchanges are the other. In Germany, the
old analog exchanges that had mechanical parts, were replaced by ISDN
exchanges with analog port support for customers who wanted analog phone
service. All of the product lines were discontinued years ago - getting
spare parts is now a hard task. At one time, it will not be possible, as
various different ICs and microprocessors were used - that are not
produced anymore.
This is the part that c186282 seems to not be aware of (or be
ignoring).
The only "analog hardwire network" that exists for POTS phones is the
single wire from c186282's home to the point where that wire terminates
at a ADC/DAC in an exchange or concentrator. Everything else beyond
the other end (relative to c186282's home) of that small remaining bit
of twisted pair copper wire is all digital computer networking now.
On Thu, 11 Jun 2026 01:14:36 -0400, c186282 wrote:
I spent a little extra and bought an 'eve mount' outdoor antenna and
pointed it at the more busy part of the state.
Have a slightly-better spare too, just in case.
This is the busy part of the state. The next busy part is 350 miles as the very tired crow flies. The crow has to make it over the Continental Divide too.
On 2026-06-11 07:09, c186282 wrote:
On 6/10/26 15:25, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2026 03:14:45 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 6/9/26 14:31, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-06-09, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
There's also a matter that a world where you're expected to walk into >>>>>> a supermarket with nothing, no personal items and no products from >>>>>> other shops, might also be a world with a car-centric view, where >>>>>> they
somehow expect people don't need to have stuff on them when they go >>>>>> shop for something else, while the reality is that someone who's
shopping for a few items on the way home might have their
handbag/backpack/... and also a bag from the previous place they made >>>>>> business at.
In cases like that I make sure I have the receipt from the previous
shop handy and ready to display.
˙˙˙ I have giant bags/boxes of receipts, some back into the 80s.
FINDING
˙˙˙ a PARTICULAR one though ...
Receipts from retail purchases have a very short life with me. 'Do you
want the receipt for that sack of Friskies?'˙ Like the cats are going to >>> bitch about food and I'd want to return it.
˙˙ For the shit I buy from 7-11 ... really don't need to
˙˙ keep 'em very long ... but I just automatically jam
˙˙ them into a stack and thus they REMAIN. Think of them
˙˙ as documentation for where I've been and when Just In Case.
˙˙ For more 'capital' purchases and some other items, DO keep
˙˙ 'em for a decade or more.
Reminds me.
I normally write down the gasoline I buy into a calc sheet in my phone
(thus using Google Calc). I also write down the number of kilometres and
the litres used according to the car computer.
But now google says it can not sync the last changes and has lost a
month of entries. Now I want to find those paper slips!
˙˙ Also have paperwork for stuff dead relatives bought.
˙˙ Anyway, kinda decided, will NEVER really thin them out.
˙˙ WAY too much work. Once I'm dead Somebody Else can toss
˙˙ them en-masse. Not My Problem anymore.
˙˙ "Well Mr. RBowman, can you account for where you were
˙˙ on June 17th 2003 at 2PM ??? Why NOT sir ??? WE assert
˙˙ you're hiding doing Evil Things then !!! PROVE your
˙˙ innocence or we will proceed with the State's conclusions !"
˙˙ Yea, it IS getting That Bad.
The USA is crumbling.
On 2026-06-10 21:39, Rich wrote:
Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
Am 29.05.26 um 03:34 schrieb c186282:
˙ ˙ In short, never throw away a good hardwire network.
The network is one part - the exchanges are the other. In Germany, the
old analog exchanges that had mechanical parts, were replaced by ISDN
exchanges with analog port support for customers who wanted analog phone >>> service. All of the product lines were discontinued years ago - getting
spare parts is now a hard task. At one time, it will not be possible, as >>> various different ICs and microprocessors were used - that are not
produced anymore.
This is the part that c186282 seems to not be aware of (or be
ignoring).
The only "analog hardwire network" that exists for POTS phones is the
single wire from c186282's home to the point where that wire terminates
at a ADC/DAC in an exchange or concentrator.˙ Everything else beyond
the other end (relative to c186282's home) of that small remaining bit
of twisted pair copper wire is all digital computer networking now.
Now and since 1980..2000.
On 6/11/26 05:09, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-10 21:39, Rich wrote:
Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
Am 29.05.26 um 03:34 schrieb c186282:
˙ ˙ In short, never throw away a good hardwire network.
The network is one part - the exchanges are the other. In Germany, the >>>> old analog exchanges that had mechanical parts, were replaced by ISDN
exchanges with analog port support for customers who wanted analog
phone
service. All of the product lines were discontinued years ago - getting >>>> spare parts is now a hard task. At one time, it will not be
possible, as
various different ICs and microprocessors were used - that are not
produced anymore.
This is the part that c186282 seems to not be aware of (or be
ignoring).
The only "analog hardwire network" that exists for POTS phones is the
single wire from c186282's home to the point where that wire terminates
at a ADC/DAC in an exchange or concentrator.˙ Everything else beyond
the other end (relative to c186282's home) of that small remaining bit
of twisted pair copper wire is all digital computer networking now.
Now and since 1980..2000.
˙ Don't CARE so long as working copper pairs
˙ come into my house. Can relay thru space
˙ alien networks down the street if they want.
˙ They, for good reasons, ran out of end-to-end
˙ copper pairs a LONG time ago. Multiplexing
˙ schemes, soon digital, were required. Last
˙ end-2-end ... watched those relays work in
˙ the 1960s - school 'field trip'. LOVED those
˙ connecting devices though, mechanical ART.
˙ Hope they saved a few.
So, USA, further 'left' or 'right' take-over ? It
will be one or the other. 'Right' can be bad, but
'left' would be worse.
On 2026-06-12 08:34, c186282 wrote:
On 6/11/26 05:09, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-06-10 21:39, Rich wrote:
Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
Am 29.05.26 um 03:34 schrieb c186282:
˙ ˙ In short, never throw away a good hardwire network.
The network is one part - the exchanges are the other. In Germany, the >>>>> old analog exchanges that had mechanical parts, were replaced by ISDN >>>>> exchanges with analog port support for customers who wanted analog
phone
service. All of the product lines were discontinued years ago -
getting
spare parts is now a hard task. At one time, it will not be
possible, as
various different ICs and microprocessors were used - that are not
produced anymore.
This is the part that c186282 seems to not be aware of (or be
ignoring).
The only "analog hardwire network" that exists for POTS phones is the
single wire from c186282's home to the point where that wire terminates >>>> at a ADC/DAC in an exchange or concentrator.˙ Everything else beyond
the other end (relative to c186282's home) of that small remaining bit >>>> of twisted pair copper wire is all digital computer networking now.
Now and since 1980..2000.
˙˙ Don't CARE so long as working copper pairs
˙˙ come into my house. Can relay thru space
˙˙ alien networks down the street if they want.
˙˙ They, for good reasons, ran out of end-to-end
˙˙ copper pairs a LONG time ago. Multiplexing
˙˙ schemes, soon digital, were required. Last
˙˙ end-2-end ... watched those relays work in
˙˙ the 1960s - school 'field trip'. LOVED those
˙˙ connecting devices though, mechanical ART.
˙˙ Hope they saved a few.
Copper pairs were always for relatively short distances. Long distance
were done with frequency multiplexing, maybe since the 50's or 60's. It
is impossible to do some distance with copper pairs. Not because they
ran out of them, but because it is not feasible.
On 6/2/2026 10:46 PM, Rich wrote:
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-01 15:19, Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2026 22:14:29 -0400, c186282 wrote:
˙˙˙˙ But, I'm not gonna tamper. That would be THE excuse to snip my >>>>>> ˙˙˙˙ landline. Can tell, they're just LOOKING for an excuse ...
There's that too. CenturyLink is the landline provider and I can
see them
saying I need a long distance provider. AT&T is less than $15/mo so it >>>>> isn't a huge deal.
The two are no longer inseperable as they were when Ma-Bell was a
single monopoly.
You can (or at least you very well should be able to) have local
service from CenturyLink without long distance from AT&T.
I never bought long distance service for my POTS line, it was local
only.˙ And the only issue that ever occurred is I could not make
direct-dialed long distance calls.˙ For the once in five years I ever
needed to do so I solved the problem using one of those old "calling
cards" services.
And Verizon never had any issues with no LD service.
The number is now connected to a VOIP provider, so I get "anywhere in
the USA" calling for the exact same price as every other call (the very >>>> concept of 'long distance' eroded decades ago, not that the 'long
distance' carriers ever bothered to inform anyone of that fact).
No, mine keeps charging long distance fares :-(
Well, I can call anyone on Spain for free, but not outside.
And they keep secret the VoIP configuration.
The AT&T breakup here in the USA back in the early 80's separated (as
in completely severed) the connection between "local phone service" and
"long distance" service.˙ The old AT&T "local offices" became the "baby
bells" (Verizon, Pacific Bell, other's I've forgotten the names of
now).˙ The old AT&T long distance portion became a "long distance
provider" but phone subscribers (who still had to use a baby-bell for
phone service) were no longer required to have long distance service.
It sounds like Spain works a bit differently than what formed here in
the US.
In my case, I moved my Verizon phone number to voip.ms (a VOIP
provider).˙ Instead of, IIRC, about $45/month at the time for Verizon
POTS service I pay the VOIP provider about $2/month.˙ That is for
"metered VOIP", so all calls incur a per minute charge (something like
$0.001/minute, i.e.˙ so small as to be nearly zero).˙ But I can call my
next door neighbor, or someone in Hawaii or Alaska (very long way away)
for the same $0.001/minute.˙ They do offer an 'unmetered' plan as well,
but it runs something like $15/month or $19/month, and I seldom ever
make or receive phone calls, so paying for 'unmetered' just didn't make
sense in my case.
But this is conflating with regulated facilities based phone service
with unregulated over the top services. Also, they are not mutually exclusive. I have over 70 phone numbers myself through IP-based CLECs
and thousands of minutes of call volume flow monthly through various Asterisk systems of mine for me and other folks. But I still keep the regulated POTS line because it serves a fundamentally different purpose. VoIP is great for cheap phone calls that are fine if they are best-
effort, drop a few packets, etc. etc. Relying on "cheap" stuff for life/ death situations is a different matter.
Quality is another factor. Verizon's 5c/min long-distance plan is TDM- based, very good quality that is hard to match with VoIP services. I
don't use it much, but I will often use it if I know I'm calling another POTS line. If I'm calling a VoIP or wireless number, then it's not worth
the cost since the quality will suck anyways, and I send the call
through a VoIP carrier.
(And sometimes, I use them in tandem; placing a call to one of my VoIP numbers over the POTS line and then terminating the call often results
in a noticeably better connection than doing "over the top VoIP" using a residential broadband connection.)
I realize that most people these days don't care about voice quality and
are quite happy with poor quality VoIP services or cell phones. I think
a lot of people have forgotten or don't even know what good quality
phone calls even sound like.
| Sysop: | Jacob Catayoc |
|---|---|
| Location: | Pasay City, Metro Manila, Philippines |
| Users: | 4 |
| Nodes: | 4 (0 / 4) |
| Uptime: | 495146:45:53 |
| Calls: | 165 |
| Files: | 574 |
| D/L today: |
29 files (9,998K bytes) |
| Messages: | 78,216 |