• ?Rock-Solid? FreeBSD

    From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Friday, December 19, 2025 07:33:33
    Kind of amusing to read this comparison of FreeBSD with Linux <https://www.zdnet.com/article/freebsd-will-challenge-your-skills-and-make-you-learn-along-the-way/>:

    And that's one of the big draws to FreeBSD: it is as rock-solid as
    they come.

    Sure, I talk a lot about how reliable Debian is, but even Debian
    can't touch the stability of FreeBSD.

    Only ...

    Unfortunately, PackageKit continually crashed, which meant KDE
    Discover was useless, so installation of all apps would have to be
    done via the command line.

    ... and ...

    On a whim, I decided to install GNOME, but the GDM login manager
    wouldn't start, so I decided to stick with KDE Plasma.

    So much for ?rock-solid as they come?, eh? Irony, this writer has
    heard of it.

    Also:

    Essentially, FreeBSD is Unix, where Linux is based on Unix.

    No it isn?t. BSD is no more ?Unix? than Linux is.

    To that end, FreeBSD (and most of the BSDs) make for amazing
    server operating systems. If you were to ask any long-in-the-tooth
    geeks about server operating systems, they'd likely say that BSD
    is what you want.

    That may have been true 20 or more years ago, but it isn?t any more.
    All the essential server-oriented functionality (e.g. modern
    networking stack, service management, security modules and privilege
    isolation) is primarily being developed for Linux now, while the BSD
    folks try to figure out how to port some small part of it to their
    aging platform.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Theo@3:633/10 to All on Friday, December 19, 2025 11:03:34
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    Kind of amusing to read this comparison of FreeBSD with Linux <https://www.zdnet.com/article/freebsd-will-challenge-your-skills-and-make-you-learn-along-the-way/>:

    And that's one of the big draws to FreeBSD: it is as rock-solid as
    they come.

    Sure, I talk a lot about how reliable Debian is, but even Debian
    can't touch the stability of FreeBSD.

    Only ...

    Unfortunately, PackageKit continually crashed, which meant KDE
    Discover was useless, so installation of all apps would have to be
    done via the command line.

    ... and ...

    On a whim, I decided to install GNOME, but the GDM login manager
    wouldn't start, so I decided to stick with KDE Plasma.

    So much for ?rock-solid as they come?, eh? Irony, this writer has
    heard of it.

    "As you might assume, the second manufacturer's cars most likely work and perform better than the first because it knows every piece that comes
    together to create the car, and can make all sorts of adjustments to improve every aspect of it. The first manufacturer, on the other hand, doesn't have nearly the control over how those components are built.

    FreeBSD is the manufacturer that builds everything in-house.

    Once you get FreeBSD up and running, you can absolutely rely on it."


    The thing is, that's talking about the base system. All the stuff with
    display managers and packages and so on aren't the base system. That's more like the random stuff you bought on Amazon to bolt on to your car - the manufacturer does not have any say in their engineering or making them work well together.

    If you can stay within the base system (or a few limited services on top of
    it) you'll be ok. If you stray off-piste into too much third party stuff
    it's only as good as the third party makes it - and often that third party
    is not interested in FreeBSD.

    Also:

    Essentially, FreeBSD is Unix, where Linux is based on Unix.

    No it isn?t. BSD is no more ?Unix? than Linux is.

    FreeBSD derives from BSD which derived from AT&T Unix. There's no longer
    any AT&T code in it. Linux is a clean sheet reimplementation. Arguably
    both have diverged from AT&T's source code, but BSD was a piecemeal
    replacement so kept the original structure and feel while Linux started from scratch.

    To that end, FreeBSD (and most of the BSDs) make for amazing
    server operating systems. If you were to ask any long-in-the-tooth
    geeks about server operating systems, they'd likely say that BSD
    is what you want.

    That may have been true 20 or more years ago, but it isn?t any more.
    All the essential server-oriented functionality (e.g. modern
    networking stack, service management, security modules and privilege isolation) is primarily being developed for Linux now, while the BSD
    folks try to figure out how to port some small part of it to their
    aging platform.

    If your stack is Kubenetes + Docker + systemd, agreed. If your stack is
    plain nginx + DB then FreeBSD is still an contender. Albeit an increasingly niche one as everyone moves towards the former.

    It sounds like the writer took some memes and ran with them, without
    actually knowing too much about what people do for real nowadays.

    Theo

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Geoff Clare@3:633/10 to All on Friday, December 19, 2025 13:32:25
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    To that end, FreeBSD (and most of the BSDs) make for amazing
    server operating systems. If you were to ask any long-in-the-tooth
    geeks about server operating systems, they'd likely say that BSD
    is what you want.

    That may have been true 20 or more years ago, but it isn?t any more.
    All the essential server-oriented functionality (e.g. modern
    networking stack, service management, security modules and privilege isolation) is primarily being developed for Linux now, while the BSD
    folks try to figure out how to port some small part of it to their
    aging platform.

    A major exception to that is ZFS: native and very dependable in
    FreeBSD (and works great as the root filesystem), but a horribly
    fragile dkms mess in Linux.

    When it was time to replace my ageing Open Solaris file/media server,
    I chose FreeBSD over Linux for that reason. (But all my other systems
    run Linux.)

    --
    Geoff Clare <netnews@gclare.org.uk>

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Friday, December 19, 2025 21:09:45
    On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 13:32:25 +0000, Geoff Clare wrote:

    A major exception to that is ZFS: native and very dependable in
    FreeBSD (and works great as the root filesystem), but a horribly
    fragile dkms mess in Linux.

    ZFS is a memory hog, though, isn?t it (it is to filesystems like Java
    is for programming languages). Best confined to a dedicated storage
    appliance, not something you want to run on a general-purpose machine.

    Fun fact: even Oracle will not offer ZFS on its own Linux distro, but
    it will give you btrfs instead.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Friday, December 19, 2025 21:19:18
    On 19 Dec 2025 11:03:34 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:

    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    Kind of amusing to read this comparison of FreeBSD with Linux
    <https://www.zdnet.com/article/freebsd-will-challenge-your-skills-and-make-you-learn-along-the-way/>:

    The thing is, that's talking about the base system. All the stuff
    with display managers and packages and so on aren't the base system.

    Interesting. All these pieces work fine on Linux. But as you say,
    they?re not included in the monolithic blob of code that is the base
    *BSD system.

    Linux development has traditionally been much more modular, with
    distros made up of a much wider variety of pieces. So there has been
    plenty of time to knock off most of the rough edges, such that those
    pieces fit much more seamlessly together.

    Also:

    Essentially, FreeBSD is Unix, where Linux is based on Unix.

    No it isn?t. BSD is no more ?Unix? than Linux is.

    FreeBSD derives from BSD which derived from AT&T Unix. There's no
    longer any AT&T code in it.

    So it is in fact no longer ?derived from? AT&T Unix -- the lawsuit saw
    to that. Which means my point stands: BSD is no more ?Unix? than Linux
    is.

    Linux is a clean sheet reimplementation. Arguably both have diverged
    from AT&T's source code, but BSD was a piecemeal replacement so kept
    the original structure and feel while Linux started from scratch.

    Why is it, then that it is so hard to move between BSD variants, if
    they all in fact keep ?the original structure and feel??
    Distro-hopping is a real, commonplace thing in the Linux world, but it
    isn?t so easy to do in the BSD world.

    To that end, FreeBSD (and most of the BSDs) make for amazing
    server operating systems. If you were to ask any long-in-the-tooth
    geeks about server operating systems, they'd likely say that BSD
    is what you want.

    That may have been true 20 or more years ago, but it isn?t any
    more. All the essential server-oriented functionality (e.g. modern
    networking stack, service management, security modules and
    privilege isolation) is primarily being developed for Linux now,
    while the BSD folks try to figure out how to port some small part
    of it to their aging platform.

    If your stack is Kubenetes + Docker + systemd, agreed. If your stack
    is plain nginx + DB then FreeBSD is still an contender. Albeit an increasingly niche one as everyone moves towards the former.

    There?s a lot more to Linux deployments than the above pieces. There
    is in fact a greater variety of pieces that you can use on Linux, than
    on BSD.

    Consider how the BSD world has been trying to come up with its own
    equivalents to things like Docker, systemd, and also Wayland.

    It sounds like the writer took some memes and ran with them, without
    actually knowing too much about what people do for real nowadays.

    But that article is a first-hand account of trying to set up a FreeBSD
    system.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Theo@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, December 20, 2025 17:40:31
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On 19 Dec 2025 11:03:34 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:

    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    Kind of amusing to read this comparison of FreeBSD with Linux
    <https://www.zdnet.com/article/freebsd-will-challenge-your-skills-and-make-you-learn-along-the-way/>:

    The thing is, that's talking about the base system. All the stuff
    with display managers and packages and so on aren't the base system.

    Interesting. All these pieces work fine on Linux. But as you say,
    they?re not included in the monolithic blob of code that is the base
    *BSD system.

    The base system is not a 'monolithic blob of code', it's a collection of programs just like any other system. It just so happens to all be managed together in one repository.

    Linux development has traditionally been much more modular, with
    distros made up of a much wider variety of pieces. So there has been
    plenty of time to knock off most of the rough edges, such that those
    pieces fit much more seamlessly together.

    The similarity is more with someone like Debian, who picks upstream projects and makes them work together, sometimes diverging them substantially to fit 'the Debian way'. This is a lot of additional work, on top of the work of
    the original software developers. In the BSDs the upstream and the distro
    are one and the same, although with BSD the 'distro' is just the base system and not the packages too, which are more like third party repositories on Linux.

    Just because Linux is bigger things tend to work better together. Anyone
    who has tried to run command line tools on a Mac will have experienced the
    same issues - either things work or they don't, in which case somebody needs
    to go in and dig out the Mac-specific problem and submit a patch. Any time
    you try to follow some build instructions on a Mac written by somebody on
    Linux there will usually be points of pain (eg bashisms in shell scripts when your /bin/sh isn't bash), assuming a GNU userland when you are running a BSD userland, etc (BSD make v GNU make, BSD sed v GNU sed, or whatever).

    Also:

    Essentially, FreeBSD is Unix, where Linux is based on Unix.

    No it isn?t. BSD is no more ?Unix? than Linux is.

    FreeBSD derives from BSD which derived from AT&T Unix. There's no
    longer any AT&T code in it.

    So it is in fact no longer ?derived from? AT&T Unix -- the lawsuit saw
    to that. Which means my point stands: BSD is no more ?Unix? than Linux
    is.

    'Unix' is a concept from 1990s. We are now 30 years on. How we got here is interesting but is mostly irrelevant now. You can still get Unix
    certification if for some reason you want that (Mac OS is Unix certified).
    Two Linux distros (Inspur's K-UX and Huawei's EulerOS) previously were certified but that has lapsed. I'm not sure why they went to the trouble.

    Linux is a clean sheet reimplementation. Arguably both have diverged
    from AT&T's source code, but BSD was a piecemeal replacement so kept
    the original structure and feel while Linux started from scratch.

    Why is it, then that it is so hard to move between BSD variants, if
    they all in fact keep ?the original structure and feel??
    Distro-hopping is a real, commonplace thing in the Linux world, but it
    isn?t so easy to do in the BSD world.

    The point of divergence was 30-35 years ago. That's a lot of time for divergent evolution. Meanwhile Linux distros are generally rely on the same underlying projects (eg GNU tools) which haven't diverged because they're
    still a single project.

    In the analogy, if Tesla and VW make everything in house, their parts design would be customised to their vehicles such that you can't swap parts between brands. But if Ford and GM share a parts supplier then it's more likely the part can be swapped from a Ford vehicle to a GM vehicle because the supplier uses the same attachment or connector for both.

    To that end, FreeBSD (and most of the BSDs) make for amazing
    server operating systems. If you were to ask any long-in-the-tooth
    geeks about server operating systems, they'd likely say that BSD
    is what you want.

    That may have been true 20 or more years ago, but it isn?t any
    more. All the essential server-oriented functionality (e.g. modern
    networking stack, service management, security modules and
    privilege isolation) is primarily being developed for Linux now,
    while the BSD folks try to figure out how to port some small part
    of it to their aging platform.

    If your stack is Kubenetes + Docker + systemd, agreed. If your stack
    is plain nginx + DB then FreeBSD is still an contender. Albeit an increasingly niche one as everyone moves towards the former.

    There?s a lot more to Linux deployments than the above pieces. There
    is in fact a greater variety of pieces that you can use on Linux, than
    on BSD.

    Consider how the BSD world has been trying to come up with its own equivalents to things like Docker, systemd, and also Wayland.

    Those are mostly because some feature gets added to the Linux kernel, then
    the systemd folks use it, and Docker on top of that. They are not
    interested in compatibility with non-Linux systems. To keep up, BSD has to implement the same feature the same way, even if they already have a better solution.

    BSDs have had jails for decades, but suddenly Docker is the new hotness. Because jails aren't piece-for-piece identical to Docker (they were invented first, so that's impossible), you can't just drop in a jail into a Docker pipeline. That means the BSD has to implement its own Docker clone, ie is always playing catchup.

    If you were starting from scratch using BSD you'd start with the jail as
    your building block rather than a Docker container. You'd end up with something similar but the tooling would be different. But because there is
    not the ecosystem around jails that there has latterly developed around
    Docker, you'd end up doing more work yourself.

    In a pragmatic world where you just want to get the job done, the Linux ecosystem is clearly better. On a technical level there is not so much difference.

    It sounds like the writer took some memes and ran with them, without actually knowing too much about what people do for real nowadays.

    But that article is a first-hand account of trying to set up a FreeBSD system.

    The author repeats an internet meme: 'FreeBSD is rock solid' and then
    proceeds to use it not in the way that people mean by that, while still repeating the meme: "However, any time I have a situation where stability is absolutely key, you can bet FreeBSD will be my first choice.".

    In their account the meme is self-evidently not true (things crashed or
    didn't work) yet they repeat it as a mantra. And despite that they show no evidence of ever getting to the point of a system that "you can absolutely
    rely on", which means they are just repeating what they've been told rather than any experience they have validated the statement for themselves.

    Theo

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, December 20, 2025 15:20:04
    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    The thing is, that's talking about the base system. All the stuff with >display managers and packages and so on aren't the base system. That's more >like the random stuff you bought on Amazon to bolt on to your car - the >manufacturer does not have any say in their engineering or making them work >well together.

    Indeed.

    And gnome is pretty precarious under Linux in spite of a huge amount of
    effort being expended on it. It's fine if you want everything completely default, but if you want any changes then things start going wrong. And if they didn't go wrong today, they will tomorrow when you install the mandatory update because the way you make that change is different now.

    If you can stay within the base system (or a few limited services on top of >it) you'll be ok. If you stray off-piste into too much third party stuff >it's only as good as the third party makes it - and often that third party
    is not interested in FreeBSD.

    BSD pretty much follows the Unix philosophy of making everything as
    modular as possible, and using human-readable text files for everything.
    Linux on the other hand has become very bloated and very non-modular in
    recent years. A lot of Linux distributions seem to expect that people
    will use the gui for everything, and BSD treats the gui as kind of an afterthought, which I think is a good thing.


    FreeBSD derives from BSD which derived from AT&T Unix. There's no longer
    any AT&T code in it. Linux is a clean sheet reimplementation. Arguably
    both have diverged from AT&T's source code, but BSD was a piecemeal >replacement so kept the original structure and feel while Linux started from >scratch.

    This is true, and the argument can be made that Linux has devolved very
    far from the Unix philosophy, while the BSD variants have mostly kept to
    the Unix philosophy.

    As a long-time proponent of the Unix philosophy ever since I was forced to leave RSX-11 for v7, this makes me much more of a BSD fan than a Linux fan.

    Most often I pick the OS for the applications... and when the applications
    I want to use are the Software Tools kit as they most often are, I will
    prefer BSD. This is not always the case, though.

    If your stack is Kubenetes + Docker + systemd, agreed. If your stack is >plain nginx + DB then FreeBSD is still an contender. Albeit an increasingly >niche one as everyone moves towards the former.

    There is nothing more horrible and hellish that I could imagine than being wrapped up inside Kubernetes + Docker + systemd. I agree that everyone is moving in that direction and as someone who cares about computers actually being reliable I find this terrifying.

    It sounds like the writer took some memes and ran with them, without
    actually knowing too much about what people do for real nowadays.

    What people do for real is mostly wait for updates. And then waste time
    fixing things that the updates broke. Actually get work done with computers? That's not in the requirements definition anymore.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, December 20, 2025 22:33:58
    On Sat, 20 Dec 2025 15:20:04 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:

    And gnome is pretty precarious under Linux in spite of a huge amount
    of effort being expended on it. It's fine if you want everything
    completely default, but if you want any changes then things start
    going wrong. And if they didn't go wrong today, they will tomorrow
    when you install the mandatory update because the way you make that
    change is different now.

    GNOME is not designed to be very customizable: you are supposed to use
    it as designed.

    If you want a customizable UI, there are other more versatile options,
    like KDE Plasma.

    BSD pretty much follows the Unix philosophy of making everything as
    modular as possible ...

    It?s the opposite, really. Linux distros are made out of lots of
    modular pieces, while BSDs are constructed out of large, monolithic
    blobs of code.

    ... the argument can be made that Linux has devolved very far from
    the Unix philosophy, while the BSD variants have mostly kept to the
    Unix philosophy.

    If you are thinking of the hoary old clich‚ of ?do one thing and do it
    well?, note that the modular Linux kernel is a much closer adherent of
    the ?Unix philosophy? than any BSD can manage.

    There is nothing more horrible and hellish that I could imagine than
    being wrapped up inside Kubernetes + Docker + systemd. I agree that
    everyone is moving in that direction and as someone who cares about
    computers actually being reliable I find this terrifying.

    Even the BSDs, it seems, want to move in that direction.

    Thankfully, on Linux itself, because of its modularity, you have many
    other options besides that particular stack.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, December 20, 2025 22:47:49
    On 20 Dec 2025 17:40:31 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:

    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On 19 Dec 2025 11:03:34 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:

    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    Kind of amusing to read this comparison of FreeBSD with Linux
    <https://www.zdnet.com/article/freebsd-will-challenge-your-skills-and-make-you-learn-along-the-way/>:

    The thing is, that's talking about the base system. All the stuff
    with display managers and packages and so on aren't the base
    system.

    Interesting. All these pieces work fine on Linux. But as you say,
    they?re not included in the monolithic blob of code that is the
    base *BSD system.

    The base system is not a 'monolithic blob of code', it's a
    collection of programs just like any other system. It just so
    happens to all be managed together in one repository.

    That?s not the way to do modular development. This is why Linux
    distros can achieve greater modularity than the BSDs can manage.

    The similarity is more with someone like Debian, who picks upstream
    projects and makes them work together, sometimes diverging them
    substantially to fit 'the Debian way'. This is a lot of additional
    work, on top of the work of the original software developers.

    Can you give some examples of this? From what I see of Debian
    packaging, they are careful to separate their own patches, where they
    need them, from upstream. Besides which, Debian must be doing
    something right, given it is probably the single most popular base
    distro from which others create their own offshoots.

    In the BSDs the upstream and the distro are one and the same,
    although with BSD the 'distro' is just the base system and not the
    packages too, which are more like third party repositories on Linux.

    Unfortunately there seems to be no discipline about divergence between different BSD variants. This is what leads to fragmentation among
    those variants, whereas there are something like 50-100 times as many
    Linux distros offering much smoother interchangeability.

    Just because Linux is bigger things tend to work better together.
    Anyone who has tried to run command line tools on a Mac will have
    experienced the same issues - either things work or they don't, in
    which case somebody needs to go in and dig out the Mac-specific
    problem and submit a patch.

    The problem is Apple itself is the one diverging from the ?Unix
    philosophy?. It has legally licensed the trademark, but when even
    someone like ?Mr Unix? himself, Ken Thompson of Bell Labs, has decided
    he doesn?t want to use what Apple tries to pass for ?Unix? any more,
    and prefers Linux nowadays, that should be telling you something.

    'Unix' is a concept from 1990s.

    What does that mean for the ?Unix philosophy? that you mentioned
    above?

    Why is it, then that it is so hard to move between BSD variants, if
    they all in fact keep ?the original structure and feel??
    Distro-hopping is a real, commonplace thing in the Linux world, but
    it isn?t so easy to do in the BSD world.

    The point of divergence was 30-35 years ago. That's a lot of time
    for divergent evolution. Meanwhile Linux distros are generally rely
    on the same underlying projects (eg GNU tools) which haven't
    diverged because they're still a single project.

    But the Linux kernel is from that time, too. And the GNU project is
    even older than that, more like 40 years old. By your argument, based
    purely on timing, this ?divergence? into incompatibility should have
    afflicted the Linux world just as much as it has the BSD world. But it
    hasn?t.

    In the analogy, if Tesla and VW make everything in house, their
    parts design would be customised to their vehicles such that you
    can't swap parts between brands. But if Ford and GM share a parts
    supplier then it's more likely the part can be swapped from a Ford
    vehicle to a GM vehicle because the supplier uses the same
    attachment or connector for both.

    So the BSDs suffer from ?Not Invented Here? Syndrome, is that it?

    Consider how the BSD world has been trying to come up with its own
    equivalents to things like Docker, systemd, and also Wayland.

    Those are mostly because some feature gets added to the Linux
    kernel, then the systemd folks use it, and Docker on top of that.
    They are not interested in compatibility with non-Linux systems. To
    keep up, BSD has to implement the same feature the same way, even if
    they already have a better solution.

    If they have a better solution, why wouldn?t their own users (like
    you) stick to that?

    BSDs have had jails for decades, but suddenly Docker is the new
    hotness.

    Docker is just one implementation of containers on Linux. Remember
    that ?Docker? and ?containers? are not primitives offered up by the
    Linux per se: they are all built out of lower-level pieces, like
    namespaces and cgroups.

    If you were starting from scratch using BSD you'd start with the
    jail as your building block rather than a Docker container.

    Why doesn?t somebody do that, then?

    In a pragmatic world where you just want to get the job done, the
    Linux ecosystem is clearly better.

    How did it get that way? What were the BSDs doing in the meantime?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Geoff Clare@3:633/10 to All on Monday, December 22, 2025 13:38:24
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 13:32:25 +0000, Geoff Clare wrote:

    A major exception to that is ZFS: native and very dependable in
    FreeBSD (and works great as the root filesystem), but a horribly
    fragile dkms mess in Linux.

    ZFS is a memory hog, though, isn?t it

    Not really when compared to e.g. modern web browsers. IIRC the rule
    of thumb with ZFS is to have at least 1GB of RAM for each TB of
    storage. My old file/media server had 4.5TB of storage and 4GB of RAM
    and worked fine. The new one has 6TB of storage and 16GB of RAM.
    (Thankfully purchased months ago before RAM prices skyrocketed.)

    Best confined to a dedicated storage
    appliance, not something you want to run on a general-purpose machine.

    My file/media server is effectively a dedicated "appliance" although
    I built it myself instead of buying something off-the-shelf. However,
    I believe plenty of people use FreeBSD with ZFS as a general purpose desktop/laptop system.

    Fun fact: even Oracle will not offer ZFS on its own Linux distro, but
    it will give you btrfs instead.

    No doubt because of the licensing issue that is the reason ZFS has to
    be installed via dkms on Linux instead of being native.

    --
    Geoff Clare <netnews@gclare.org.uk>

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Monday, December 22, 2025 21:21:37
    On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:38:24 +0000, Geoff Clare wrote:

    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    Fun fact: even Oracle will not offer ZFS on its own Linux distro,
    but it will give you btrfs instead.

    No doubt because of the licensing issue that is the reason ZFS has
    to be installed via dkms on Linux instead of being native.

    Guess who controls the licensing of ZFS?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Geoff Clare@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, December 23, 2025 13:38:44
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:38:24 +0000, Geoff Clare wrote:

    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    Fun fact: even Oracle will not offer ZFS on its own Linux distro,
    but it will give you btrfs instead.

    No doubt because of the licensing issue that is the reason ZFS has
    to be installed via dkms on Linux instead of being native.

    Guess who controls the licensing of ZFS?

    Indeed, although the situation is more complicated than that simple
    phrasing implies.

    When Sun open-sourced Solaris (including the original ZFS) they created
    their own licence for it, and the reason ZFS can't be included in the
    Linux kernel is that Sun's licence is incompatible with the GPLv2
    licence used for Linux.

    When Oracle bought Sun they took Solaris back to being closed source
    and the community forked the OpenSolaris code as Illumos and the ZFS
    code as OpenZFS. Since ownership of the original code transferred
    to Oracle, only they could change it to a different licence (e.g. one compatible with GPLv2), which I suppose could be considered a form of
    control over the OpenZFS licensing, but equally they can't prevent
    OpenZFS (or Illumos) from being developed and distributed under the
    original Sun licence.

    At least, that's how I understand the current situation (IANAL).

    --
    Geoff Clare <netnews@gclare.org.uk>

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, December 23, 2025 20:31:01
    On Tue, 23 Dec 2025 13:38:44 +0000, Geoff Clare wrote:

    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:38:24 +0000, Geoff Clare wrote:

    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    Fun fact: even Oracle will not offer ZFS on its own Linux distro,
    but it will give you btrfs instead.

    No doubt because of the licensing issue that is the reason ZFS has
    to be installed via dkms on Linux instead of being native.

    Guess who controls the licensing of ZFS?

    Indeed, although the situation is more complicated than that simple
    phrasing implies.

    Oracle control the copyright on (original) ZFS. They own it. They can
    license it under any terms they wish. They can offer it with their own
    Linux distro if they wish. But they can?t, or won?t. But they will
    include btrfs.

    The only Oracle product that includes ZFS, that I know of, is Solaris.
    Which has been in ?legacy maintenance? state for some decades now.

    Vote of confidence in the quality of your own product? They have heard
    of it!

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Geoff Clare@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, December 24, 2025 13:18:43
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    The only Oracle product that includes ZFS, that I know of, is Solaris.
    Which has been in ?legacy maintenance? state for some decades now.

    Only seven years actually. They made significant updates to Solaris
    between 11.3 and 11.4 in order to get 11.4 certified to UNIX V7 in
    2018 (and they were the first vendor to certify - AIX was two years
    later).

    --
    Geoff Clare <netnews@gclare.org.uk>

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Monday, January 05, 2026 22:50:13
    Jack Wallen is at it again <https://www.zdnet.com/article/freebsd-vs-slackware/>, still trying to
    claim that

    ... FreeBSD is incredibly stable. I would go so far as to say that
    it's the most stable operating system available.

    This in spite of the problems he had with the install before!

    He also repeats the old myth

    Because FreeBSD is a descendant of the original AT&T UNIX code,
    you can bet it inherited the stability of its predecessor.

    None of the BSDs have *any* AT&T Unix code in them. AT&T filed an
    actual lawsuit to see to that.

    Interesting how he sees an inflexible, monolithic development model
    as an advantage:

    With Linux, the kernel is developed by one team, userland
    utilities are developed by other teams, libraries are developed by
    yet another, and documentation is created and maintained by
    another. FreeBSD, on the other hand, does all of that via the same
    team. What this does is create a highly stable, unified design
    that is rock-solid and reliable in ways most other operating
    systems can't touch.

    If you want to argue age:

    The first version of FreeBSD was released in 1993, which means it
    has had a long time to mature.

    then it?s worth noting that the first version of Linux was released
    two years prior to that, so it has had an even longer time to mature.

    Features that he somehow tries to suggest are FreeBSD-specific:

    ? Native support for an advanced, fault-tolerant ZFS file system
    with pooled storage, snapshots, and data integrity.
    ? Lightweight containerization for running isolated services to
    improve security and resource management beyond the traditional
    chroot found in Linux.
    ? A built-in, efficient type-2 hypervisor for virtualization.
    ? Highly optimized TCP/IP stack, robust tools, and support for
    modern protocols, perfect for network-intensive applications.
    ? ACLs, MAC frameworks (TrustedBSD), auditing, and encryption (GELI).

    All of these have Linux equivalents that are as good or better.
    Remember that Linux invented containerization. And I would say its
    networking stack has long left the BSDs in the dust.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, January 06, 2026 09:42:27
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    He also repeats the old myth

    Because FreeBSD is a descendant of the original AT&T UNIX code,
    you can bet it inherited the stability of its predecessor.

    None of the BSDs have *any* AT&T Unix code in them. AT&T filed an
    actual lawsuit to see to that.

    Counterexample: https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/main/contrib/one-true-awk/awk.h

    The copyright notice says 'Lucent' but that's an AT&T spinoff,
    presumably the one that ended up owning that version of awk when they
    did the split.

    It?s not a recent addition, either. The version in 4.4BSDLite2, https://github.com/sergev/4.4BSD-Lite2/blob/master/usr/src/contrib/awk.research/awk.h,
    has an explicit AT&T copyright.

    Compare
    with https://github.com/calmsacibis995/svr4-src/blob/main/cmd/awk/awk.h,
    the same file in SVR4, and the relationship is obvious.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Aharon Robbins@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, January 06, 2026 14:08:31
    In article <wwveco3axh8.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>,
    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    He also repeats the old myth

    Because FreeBSD is a descendant of the original AT&T UNIX code,
    you can bet it inherited the stability of its predecessor.

    None of the BSDs have *any* AT&T Unix code in them. AT&T filed an
    actual lawsuit to see to that.

    Counterexample: >https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/main/contrib/one-true-awk/awk.h

    The copyright notice says 'Lucent' but that's an AT&T spinoff,
    presumably the one that ended up owning that version of awk when they
    did the split.

    It?s not a recent addition, either. The version in 4.4BSDLite2, >https://github.com/sergev/4.4BSD-Lite2/blob/master/usr/src/contrib/awk.research/awk.h,
    has an explicit AT&T copyright.

    Compare
    with https://github.com/calmsacibis995/svr4-src/blob/main/cmd/awk/awk.h,
    the same file in SVR4, and the relationship is obvious.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

    The one true awk has its own license. Yes, it was from Unix awk, but
    there's no AT&T kernel code in FreeBSD.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, January 06, 2026 22:59:39
    arnold@freefriends.org (Aharon Robbins) writes:
    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Lawrence Dƒ??Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    He also repeats the old myth

    Because FreeBSD is a descendant of the original AT&T UNIX code,
    you can bet it inherited the stability of its predecessor.

    None of the BSDs have *any* AT&T Unix code in them. AT&T filed an
    actual lawsuit to see to that.

    Counterexample: >>https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/main/contrib/one-true-awk/awk.h >>
    The copyright notice says 'Lucent' but that's an AT&T spinoff,
    presumably the one that ended up owning that version of awk when they
    did the split.

    Itƒ??s not a recent addition, either. The version in 4.4BSDLite2, >>https://github.com/sergev/4.4BSD-Lite2/blob/master/usr/src/contrib/awk.research/awk.h,
    has an explicit AT&T copyright.

    Compare
    with https://github.com/calmsacibis995/svr4-src/blob/main/cmd/awk/awk.h, >>the same file in SVR4, and the relationship is obvious.

    The one true awk has its own license. Yes, it was from Unix awk, but
    there's no AT&T kernel code in FreeBSD.

    How about https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/main/sys/contrib/openzfs/module/os/freebsd/spl/spl_uio.c#L27
    then?

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Aharon Robbins@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 07, 2026 06:41:41
    I asserted:

    The one true awk has its own license. Yes, it was from Unix awk, but
    there's no AT&T kernel code in FreeBSD.

    How about >https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/main/sys/contrib/openzfs/module/os/freebsd/spl/spl_uio.c#L27
    then?

    Harumph. I should not have been so glib. "There shouldn't be AT&T code
    in FreeBSD" would have been better.

    That code came from Sun, who paid <someone> to be able to release
    Solaris as open source. So that's what you're seeing. It's part
    of ZFS, which Sun developed originally.

    I suspect that the AT&T copyright notices are simply copy/paste from
    whatever file the Sun engineers copied before turning the file into
    part of ZFS.

    In any case, I doubt that there's anything illegal there. Any further questions should be taken up with the FreeBSD people.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Anssi Saari@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 14, 2026 11:29:34
    Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> writes:

    A major exception to that is ZFS: native and very dependable in
    FreeBSD (and works great as the root filesystem), but a horribly
    fragile dkms mess in Linux.

    How is ZFS fragile and messy in Linux, please? I only run it on my two
    file servers, but no issues in the last decade or so. Haven't bothered
    with it as root FS though.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Geoff Clare@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 14, 2026 14:00:18
    Anssi Saari wrote:

    Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> writes:

    A major exception to that is ZFS: native and very dependable in
    FreeBSD (and works great as the root filesystem), but a horribly
    fragile dkms mess in Linux.

    How is ZFS fragile and messy in Linux, please? I only run it on my two
    file servers, but no issues in the last decade or so. Haven't bothered
    with it as root FS though.

    Every time you upgrade the kernel there is a chance that the ZFS dkms
    install will fail.

    I have ZFS on an external SSD that I use to back up the Linux system on
    my work laptop. (Being a work machine, I don't back it up to my
    personal file server.) I got so fed up with dkms install failures that
    I actually resorted to ZFS-fuse and took the performance hit (since it
    didn't matter too much if the backup took longer).

    Reports of ZFS dkms problems on Linux are easy to find...

    https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=280416

    https://askubuntu.com/questions/1539311/downgrade-kernel-to-install-zfs-dkms

    https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=402097

    https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/cannot-install-zfs/62770

    That last one includes an answer that says, "In general, when using zfs
    you are better off using the LTS kernel"

    That's all well and good if your hardware is supported by an LTS
    kernel, but if you need a newer kernel then you run a significant risk
    of dkms install failures (while you wait for a new enough LTS kernel).

    --
    Geoff Clare <netnews@gclare.org.uk>

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Rich@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 14, 2026 15:29:14
    Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:
    Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> writes:

    A major exception to that is ZFS: native and very dependable in
    FreeBSD (and works great as the root filesystem), but a horribly
    fragile dkms mess in Linux.

    How is ZFS fragile and messy in Linux, please? I only run it on my two
    file servers, but no issues in the last decade or so. Haven't bothered
    with it as root FS though.

    It is an "out of kernel" blob of code. So any kernel change /could/
    break it (and the kernel developers won't help fix the breakage because
    it is "out of kernel" code.

    So fragile -- yes, any kernel upgrade could cause ZFS to not compile so
    you'd have no ZFS until you download the updated ZFS compatible with
    the new kernel.

    Mess -- maybe a bit of over statement there. It's no more a mess than
    any other "out of kernel" driver that has to be patched to keep up with internal kernel changes.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Anssi Saari@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 21, 2026 14:31:39
    Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

    It is an "out of kernel" blob of code. So any kernel change /could/
    break it (and the kernel developers won't help fix the breakage because
    it is "out of kernel" code.

    So fragile -- yes, any kernel upgrade could cause ZFS to not compile so you'd have no ZFS until you download the updated ZFS compatible with
    the new kernel.

    If one uses a little caution and checks ZFS compatibility before
    updating the kernel then this is avoided.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dan Cross@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 22, 2026 14:14:05
    In article <sm0tswfp2ok.fsf@lakka.kapsi.fi>,
    Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:
    Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

    It is an "out of kernel" blob of code. So any kernel change /could/
    break it (and the kernel developers won't help fix the breakage because
    it is "out of kernel" code.

    So fragile -- yes, any kernel upgrade could cause ZFS to not compile so
    you'd have no ZFS until you download the updated ZFS compatible with
    the new kernel.

    If one uses a little caution and checks ZFS compatibility before
    updating the kernel then this is avoided.

    ...or you could just run FreeBSD and avoid the whole issue. Why
    bother with Linux? What's so special about it that people feel
    _compelled_ to run it?

    - Dan C.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Aharon Robbins@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 22, 2026 18:51:02
    In article <10ktbbd$ge1$1@reader2.panix.com>,
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    ...or you could just run FreeBSD and avoid the whole issue. Why
    bother with Linux? What's so special about it that people feel
    _compelled_ to run it?

    I don't use ZFS, so maybe your question is what's so special
    about the combination of ZFS and Linux?

    But if you're really asking the general question, I can tell you:

    1. The user land is usually based on the GNU tools: No arbitrary limits applies. I have no idea if there are still fixed limits in
    the BSD user land.

    2. These days, just about *everything* just works, without fuss or muss.

    - Install on even fairly new hardware goes smoothly
    - Installers are usually graphical
    - One's choice of GUI environments (I use Ubuntu Mate)
    - Software updates (at least on Ubuntu) work super smoothly
    - Installing additional software is trivial

    3. Linux performs quite well, and certainly better than Windows
    (yeah, not the comparison).

    I don't remember which BSD I recently tried to bring up in a VM
    (maybe FreeBSD) but installation was like jumping back 40 years
    in time to the ASCII-art spinning wheel. It didn't even come up
    with a GUI, or else it was X with TWM and no menus, or something
    ridiculous like that.

    I'll agree. A lot of it is familiarity, but also the fact that I see no compelling reason to switch. Why climb a brand new learning curve
    just to get to the same point I'm already at?

    I have real work to get done, I don't need to spend weeks learning
    how BSD does the same thing I already know how to do.

    4. The elephant in the room: Everybody else is on Linux, which
    means if I want something commercial that only runs on Linux, I
    can get it. Not so on *BSD.

    I've been using Linux as my daily driver since mid-1997. It's done
    real well for me. Why switch to something that I don't see is
    better?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, January 22, 2026 20:46:32
    On 22 Jan 2026 18:51:02 GMT, Aharon Robbins wrote:

    I have real work to get done, I don't need to spend weeks learning
    how BSD does the same thing I already know how to do.

    Here?s another point: different BSDs do things differently --
    different as in right down to the kernel level.

    Compare: 300-over Linux distros on the one hand, versus less than half
    a dozen BSD variants on the other. One offers a breathtaking, even
    bewildering, level of variety of choice, with minimal interoperability
    issues -- i.e. minimal fragmentation. The other offers much less
    variety of choice, at the cost of much more fragmentation.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Ian@3:633/10 to All on Friday, January 23, 2026 08:13:35
    On 2026-01-22, Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
    In article <10ktbbd$ge1$1@reader2.panix.com>,
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    ...or you could just run FreeBSD and avoid the whole issue. Why
    bother with Linux? What's so special about it that people feel
    _compelled_ to run it?

    I don't use ZFS, so maybe your question is what's so special
    about the combination of ZFS and Linux?

    But if you're really asking the general question, I can tell you:

    1. The user land is usually based on the GNU tools: No arbitrary limits applies. I have no idea if there are still fixed limits in
    the BSD user land.

    2. These days, just about *everything* just works, without fuss or muss.

    - Install on even fairly new hardware goes smoothly
    - Installers are usually graphical
    - One's choice of GUI environments (I use Ubuntu Mate)
    - Software updates (at least on Ubuntu) work super smoothly
    - Installing additional software is trivial

    3. Linux performs quite well, and certainly better than Windows
    (yeah, not the comparison).

    I don't remember which BSD I recently tried to bring up in a VM
    (maybe FreeBSD) but installation was like jumping back 40 years
    in time to the ASCII-art spinning wheel. It didn't even come up
    with a GUI, or else it was X with TWM and no menus, or something
    ridiculous like that.

    I'll agree. A lot of it is familiarity, but also the fact that I see no compelling reason to switch. Why climb a brand new learning curve
    just to get to the same point I'm already at?

    I have real work to get done, I don't need to spend weeks learning
    how BSD does the same thing I already know how to do.

    4. The elephant in the room: Everybody else is on Linux, which
    means if I want something commercial that only runs on Linux, I
    can get it. Not so on *BSD.

    I've been using Linux as my daily driver since mid-1997. It's done
    real well for me. Why switch to something that I don't see is
    better?

    Yes, Linux is becoming the new Windows - if you want something to
    "just work", rather than become a project in itself.

    Unfortunately there are still at least two major factions in the
    Linux world, the debian/Ubuntu-like and the RedHat/Fedora-like,
    and if your chosen tool was developed by fans of one camp you're
    on a hiding to nothing trying to use it on the rival distribution.

    Yes, some things really are truly portable, but not everything,
    and the higher up the functionality-stack you go the less portable
    it seems to be - understandably.

    Fortunately I have a nice big virtualisation host, so deploying
    a VM of the appropriate flavour for a tool isn't such a big deal
    (CentOS, Alpine, Ubuntu, Windows, whatever).

    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dan Cross@3:633/10 to All on Friday, January 23, 2026 12:25:56
    In article <69727196$0$666$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
    Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
    In article <10ktbbd$ge1$1@reader2.panix.com>,
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    ...or you could just run FreeBSD and avoid the whole issue. Why
    bother with Linux? What's so special about it that people feel
    _compelled_ to run it?

    I don't use ZFS, so maybe your question is what's so special
    about the combination of ZFS and Linux?

    Yes, it was specifically about Linux and ZFS.

    I do have a few follow-ups about some of your comments; inline.

    But if you're really asking the general question, I can tell you:

    1. The user land is usually based on the GNU tools: No arbitrary limits >applies. I have no idea if there are still fixed limits in
    the BSD user land.

    My sense is that, at this point, pretty much all of these have
    been removed. Having seen the source for many of the GNU tools,
    I'd put the BSD tools somewhat above them in terms of quality
    and polish. I would counter that most have useful man pages,
    while some GNU tools seem to still rely on `info` for their
    primary documentation.

    2. These days, just about *everything* just works, without fuss or muss.

    - Install on even fairly new hardware goes smoothly
    - Installers are usually graphical
    - One's choice of GUI environments (I use Ubuntu Mate)
    - Software updates (at least on Ubuntu) work super smoothly
    - Installing additional software is trivial

    I don't have many problems installing things on FreeBSD, it does
    support multiple desktop environments, and installation of third
    party software is trivial. In the next release, the base system
    will be changed to use the package management system, so updates
    to the base system will use the same mechanism as third party
    software.

    The graphical installer thing is kind of an odd one to me; I've
    heard this several times before. I get that the TUI may not be
    to everyone's taste, but surely you don't install the OS all the
    time?

    On the other hand, look at the installation process for (say)
    Arch. Not only is it non-graphical, it's extremely manual. And
    I'm often surprised at how many things are missing from from
    either the Pacman or AUR repos: the `oo2c` compiler came up in comp.lang.oberong the other day; it wasn't on my Arch system,
    but worked just fine on FreeBSD.

    3. Linux performs quite well, and certainly better than Windows
    (yeah, not the comparison).

    I think performance of BSD relative to Linux is quite good,
    though it likely depends heavily on what one is doing. Netflix
    pushes hundreds of gigabits through the FreeBSD networking stack
    on a single system; but UFS always "felt" slower than ext2
    because of the way they handled metadata updates; on the flip
    side it didn't tend to lose my data. :-)

    I don't remember which BSD I recently tried to bring up in a VM
    (maybe FreeBSD) but installation was like jumping back 40 years
    in time to the ASCII-art spinning wheel. It didn't even come up
    with a GUI, or else it was X with TWM and no menus, or something
    ridiculous like that.

    I'll agree. A lot of it is familiarity, but also the fact that I see no >compelling reason to switch. Why climb a brand new learning curve
    just to get to the same point I'm already at?

    Well, in this specific case, it was because ZFS is maintained
    out of tree, and a kernel update could break the filesystem. If
    the system in question is, say, an NFS server or something, it
    seems unecessarily risky to use ZFS on Linux just to run Linux.

    I have real work to get done, I don't need to spend weeks learning
    how BSD does the same thing I already know how to do.

    Would it really be weeks, though?

    4. The elephant in the room: Everybody else is on Linux, which
    means if I want something commercial that only runs on Linux, I
    can get it. Not so on *BSD.

    That's why I'm sitting in front of a Mac. :-D Note this is
    also the strongest argument for Windows.

    This is admittedly a weak area in the BSD ecosystem, but I would
    counter that it's also somewhat niche.

    The BSDs often have Linux compat layers for these use cases,
    though I confess I've never used them and don't know how well
    they would fare for complex use cases.

    It bears point out, however, that ironically we're talking about
    this because of software that's native and integrated into
    FreeBSD, but requires out-of-tree shenanigans that are fragile
    on Linux. This is, perhaps, a rare case of something that runs
    natively on FreeBSD, but requires hacks to run on Linux, rather
    than software native to Linux that requires hacks on FreeBSD.

    I've been using Linux as my daily driver since mid-1997. It's done
    real well for me. Why switch to something that I don't see is
    better?

    To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying that you should.

    But if you wanted to do something esoteric (like run ZFS on
    Linux, which I consider mildly esoteric) that works better on
    BSD, one must ask, why try to force that square peg into a
    round hole? Linux has perfectly adequate in-tree filesystems
    that perform well and are robust; on the other hand, as pointed
    out, a kernel update could break your system pretty
    spectacularly; workarounds exist, sure, but why open yourself up
    to that possibility if you don't have to? I mean, if it's just
    as a learn exercise, then ok...but for production systems? I'm
    not sure that's a great idea.

    There's also the matter that the rate of change on Linux is high
    and distros change things in seemingly gratuitous ways. systemd
    vs system V-style init vs /etc/rc and inittab, and so on are the
    obvious examples, but I would point to things like the `ip`
    command replacing `ifconfig` and `ss` replacing `netstat` as
    more subtle examples.

    I think the first time I installed Linux was in 1993 (or perhaps
    early 1994), and at the time it reminded me of SunOS; not when I
    look at it, it's nothing like that at all. I think we should
    agree that the Linux you ran in 1997 just isn't the same Linux
    as today, and we are all constantly changing the way we do
    things as Linux evolves. This isn't bad per se, but it does
    weaken the argument about having to relearn things, though
    granted it happens in a much more incremental, ship of Thesius
    kind of way. Nevermind that plethora of distributions that all
    do things slightly differently (though in fairness there seem to
    be only a few family strains...).

    There's also the matter of Linux being a near monoculture. Just
    as with biological systems, these are susceptible to all sorts
    of external dangers, so it is with software. Diversity in terms
    of the systems we run produces, I think, more robust and higher
    quality software. My own experience is that when I write
    software that make sure runs across a variety of different
    systems (Linux, *BSD, macOS, illumos...) the result tends to be
    higher-quality than if I only run it on any one of those.

    I suppose it's a matter of balancing the benefits from the
    network effects one takes advnatage of when one uses Linux with
    the possibility of instability when one also chooses to use ZFS
    or something like it. Which is more important is, of course, an
    individual (or organization) question and there's no universal
    answer. But I suspect, things like the installer aside, and of
    course systemd, BSD and Linux are a lot closer than most people
    expect.

    - Dan C.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Friday, January 23, 2026 20:51:56
    On Fri, 23 Jan 2026 08:13:35 -0000 (UTC), Ian wrote:

    Yes, Linux is becoming the new Windows - if you want something to
    "just work", rather than become a project in itself.

    The difference is, that was never true of Windows: it?s just that
    people had long experience with an ever-growing collection of voodoo/black-magic tricks (e.g. registry edits) to get things working.

    Unfortunately there are still at least two major factions in the
    Linux world, the debian/Ubuntu-like and the RedHat/Fedora-like, and
    if your chosen tool was developed by fans of one camp you're on a
    hiding to nothing trying to use it on the rival distribution.

    Most command-line/scripting tools are very much in common. The package
    managers may be different, but that?s not a major stumbling block.

    Yes, some things really are truly portable, but not everything, and
    the higher up the functionality-stack you go the less portable it
    seems to be - understandably.

    Can you give examples of such interoperability issues, other than
    perhaps GUI-based ones?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Ian@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, January 24, 2026 08:49:01
    On 2026-01-23, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Fri, 23 Jan 2026 08:13:35 -0000 (UTC), Ian wrote:

    Yes, Linux is becoming the new Windows - if you want something to
    "just work", rather than become a project in itself.

    The difference is, that was never true of Windows: it?s just that
    people had long experience with an ever-growing collection of voodoo/black-magic tricks (e.g. registry edits) to get things working.

    For the large part, it was (and mostly still is). And where hacks were
    needed they were already known.


    Unfortunately there are still at least two major factions in the
    Linux world, the debian/Ubuntu-like and the RedHat/Fedora-like, and
    if your chosen tool was developed by fans of one camp you're on a
    hiding to nothing trying to use it on the rival distribution.

    Most command-line/scripting tools are very much in common. The package managers may be different, but that?s not a major stumbling block.

    Yes, some things really are truly portable, but not everything, and
    the higher up the functionality-stack you go the less portable it
    seems to be - understandably.

    Can you give examples of such interoperability issues, other than
    perhaps GUI-based ones?

    I'm talking about high-end applications, e.g. 3D modelling software,
    video editing, media servers. At this level I just want to launch
    the installer, click "yes" "yes" "yes", then get on learning / using
    the tool, not spending a day tracking down some obscure dependency,
    or hacking the config files because the binaries are in /usr/bin
    instead of /opt/thing/bin or whatever.

    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, January 24, 2026 10:46:18
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    ...or you could just run FreeBSD and avoid the whole issue. Why
    bother with Linux? What's so special about it that people feel
    _compelled_ to run it?

    Third party commercial applications will run on it. Matlab will not
    run on BSD unfortunately.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, January 24, 2026 21:27:54
    On Sat, 24 Jan 2026 08:49:01 -0000 (UTC), Ian wrote:

    On 2026-01-23, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    Can you give examples of such interoperability issues, other than
    perhaps GUI-based ones?

    I'm talking about high-end applications, e.g. 3D modelling software,
    video editing, media servers. At this level I just want to launch
    the installer, click "yes" "yes" "yes", then get on learning / using
    the tool ...

    Such things are usually available in the package repos: no need to hunt
    down installers from third-party sites, just select from the package
    manager, click ?Install? and go.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Ian@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, January 25, 2026 08:50:21
    On 2026-01-24, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Sat, 24 Jan 2026 08:49:01 -0000 (UTC), Ian wrote:

    On 2026-01-23, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    Can you give examples of such interoperability issues, other than
    perhaps GUI-based ones?

    I'm talking about high-end applications, e.g. 3D modelling software,
    video editing, media servers. At this level I just want to launch
    the installer, click "yes" "yes" "yes", then get on learning / using
    the tool ...

    Such things are usually available in the package repos: no need to hunt
    down installers from third-party sites, just select from the package
    manager, click ?Install? and go.

    "Usually". Experience says otherwise.

    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Marco Moock@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, January 25, 2026 11:02:52
    On 22.01.2026 18:51 Uhr Aharon Robbins wrote:

    I don't remember which BSD I recently tried to bring up in a VM
    (maybe FreeBSD) but installation was like jumping back 40 years
    in time to the ASCII-art spinning wheel. It didn't even come up
    with a GUI, or else it was X with TWM and no menus, or something
    ridiculous like that.

    The FreeBSD setup is indeed tui-only. After setup, you can install X11
    and desktops like KDE if you like.

    --
    kind regards
    Marco

    Send spam to 1769104262muell@stinkedores.dorfdsl.de


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, January 25, 2026 18:56:00
    On Sun, 25 Jan 2026 11:02:52 +0100, Marco Moock wrote:

    The FreeBSD setup is indeed tui-only. After setup, you can install
    X11 and desktops like KDE if you like.

    KDE is moving to drop support for X11, as I understand it.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, January 25, 2026 18:56:57
    On Sun, 25 Jan 2026 08:50:21 -0000 (UTC), Ian wrote:

    On 2026-01-24, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Sat, 24 Jan 2026 08:49:01 -0000 (UTC), Ian wrote:

    On 2026-01-23, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    Can you give examples of such interoperability issues, other than
    perhaps GUI-based ones?

    I'm talking about high-end applications, e.g. 3D modelling
    software, video editing, media servers. At this level I just want
    to launch the installer, click "yes" "yes" "yes", then get on
    learning / using the tool ...

    Such things are usually available in the package repos: no need to
    hunt down installers from third-party sites, just select from the
    package manager, click ?Install? and go.

    "Usually". Experience says otherwise.

    All the ones you mentioned certainly are.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dan Cross@3:633/10 to All on Monday, January 26, 2026 23:10:57
    In article <10l2pga$i97$1@panix2.panix.com>,
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    ...or you could just run FreeBSD and avoid the whole issue. Why
    bother with Linux? What's so special about it that people feel
    _compelled_ to run it?

    Third party commercial applications will run on it. Matlab will not
    run on BSD unfortunately.

    Yeah, I get that. I do wonder whether it would work with the
    Linux compat stuff, but really have no idea about that. I
    suppose then I would ask, given the requirement to run an
    application like Matlab, which implies Linux, why bother with
    ZFS?

    - Dan C.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, January 27, 2026 19:03:16
    In article <10l8sa1$ft6$1@reader2.panix.com>,
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    In article <10l2pga$i97$1@panix2.panix.com>,
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    ...or you could just run FreeBSD and avoid the whole issue. Why
    bother with Linux? What's so special about it that people feel >>>_compelled_ to run it?

    Third party commercial applications will run on it. Matlab will not
    run on BSD unfortunately.

    Yeah, I get that. I do wonder whether it would work with the
    Linux compat stuff, but really have no idea about that. I
    suppose then I would ask, given the requirement to run an
    application like Matlab, which implies Linux, why bother with
    ZFS?

    I don't need ZFS. There are plenty of other reasons to like BSD.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dan Cross@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 28, 2026 13:23:14
    In article <10lbjo4$r2n$1@panix2.panix.com>,
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
    In article <10l8sa1$ft6$1@reader2.panix.com>,
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    In article <10l2pga$i97$1@panix2.panix.com>,
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    ...or you could just run FreeBSD and avoid the whole issue. Why
    bother with Linux? What's so special about it that people feel >>>>_compelled_ to run it?

    Third party commercial applications will run on it. Matlab will not
    run on BSD unfortunately.

    Yeah, I get that. I do wonder whether it would work with the
    Linux compat stuff, but really have no idea about that. I
    suppose then I would ask, given the requirement to run an
    application like Matlab, which implies Linux, why bother with
    ZFS?

    I don't need ZFS. There are plenty of other reasons to like BSD.

    That's fine. This discussion in particular was about ZFS on
    Linux, though.

    - Dan C.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 28, 2026 11:58:33
    In article <10ld2k2$5ce$1@reader2.panix.com>,
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    In article <10lbjo4$r2n$1@panix2.panix.com>,
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
    In article <10l8sa1$ft6$1@reader2.panix.com>,
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    In article <10l2pga$i97$1@panix2.panix.com>,
    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
    Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
    ...or you could just run FreeBSD and avoid the whole issue. Why >>>>>bother with Linux? What's so special about it that people feel >>>>>_compelled_ to run it?

    Third party commercial applications will run on it. Matlab will not >>>>run on BSD unfortunately.

    Yeah, I get that. I do wonder whether it would work with the
    Linux compat stuff, but really have no idea about that. I
    suppose then I would ask, given the requirement to run an
    application like Matlab, which implies Linux, why bother with
    ZFS?

    I don't need ZFS. There are plenty of other reasons to like BSD.

    That's fine. This discussion in particular was about ZFS on
    Linux, though.

    It did indeed start out that way, yes.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Marco Moock@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, January 28, 2026 19:25:53
    On 25.01.2026 18:56 Uhr Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Sun, 25 Jan 2026 11:02:52 +0100, Marco Moock wrote:

    The FreeBSD setup is indeed tui-only. After setup, you can install
    X11 and desktops like KDE if you like.

    KDE is moving to drop support for X11, as I understand it.

    IIRC Wayland is also supported on FreeBSD, but I haven't tested it.

    --
    kind regards
    Marco

    Send spam to 1769363760muell@stinkedores.dorfdsl.de


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.6
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)