• The Dream of Coding Without Coders

    From Ben Collver@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, November 18, 2025 20:59:50
    The Dream of Coding Without Coders: A History of a Persistent Promise =====================================================================

    by Marios Karagiannis
    May 19, 2025

    For as long as software has existed, there have been promises, often
    grand, sometimes naive, that the need to "know how to code" would
    soon vanish. The vision: ordinary people, business analysts, or even
    executives designing powerful applications without writing a single
    line of code. From the earliest days of computing to today's AI
    revolution, this dream has been revived again and again. Yet, despite
    billions in investments and waves of hype, the core of software
    development, the logic, structure, and abstraction, remains
    stubbornly human.

    The 1960s: COBOL and the Business User
    ======================================

    In the 1960s, COBOL (Common Business Oriented Language) was created
    to make programming accessible to business people. With its
    English-like syntax, COBOL was supposed to bridge the gap between
    domain experts and machine code. The dream was clear: managers and
    analysts would write software themselves.

    But COBOL, while more readable than assembly, still required
    training, structure, and logical thinking. The dream didn't
    materialize. COBOL coders,still in demand decades later, became their
    own specialized workforce. Instead of removing the need for
    programmers, COBOL expanded the profession.

    The 1980s-90s: 4GLs and Visual Tools
    ====================================

    Fourth-Generation Languages (4GLs) promised another leap. Tools like
    Fox Pro, Power Builder, and Oracle Forms let users "draw"
    applications. Visual Basic allowed developers to build GUIs with
    drag-and-drop components. At the time, these were seen as the end of traditional coding.

    But while these tools simplified UI creation and database binding,
    complex business logic still required real coding. The abstraction
    broke down quickly as projects grew. Power users emerged, but
    professional developers remained essential.

    The UML Era: Modeling as Programming?
    =====================================

    In the late 1990s and early 2000s, the Unified Modeling Language
    (UML) was heralded as the new foundation for software development.
    Why write code, the thinking went, when you could diagram it? With
    Model-Driven Architecture (MDA), one could draw class and activity
    diagrams and automatically generate applications from them.

    Despite heavy support from enterprise vendors, this approach never
    took off at scale. Software is not just structure; it's behavior, and
    behavior is messy. Diagrams became too complex, brittle, and
    incomplete to replace real code. UML found a niche in documentation
    and architecture, but the coder was not dethroned.

    The No-Code/Low-Code Renaissance
    ================================

    In the 2010s, a new generation of no-code and low-code platforms
    emerged: Bubble, Out Systems, Mendix, and others. These platforms
    boasted intuitive interfaces for building web apps, workflows, and integrations. This time, the audience expanded to entrepreneurs and
    startups.

    While successful for prototyping, internal tools, or constrained
    domains, these platforms hit a wall when it came to scalability,
    customization, and maintainability. Developers were still needed to
    extend functionality, ensure security, and keep performance in check.
    Once again, the promise remained only partially fulfilled.

    Now: AI Will Replace Coders?
    ============================

    The latest iteration of the promise centers around artificial
    intelligence. Tools like GitHub Copilot, ChatGPT, and Claude can
    write code, refactor it, explain it, and even suggest solutions.
    Surely now, many claim, AI will finally eliminate the need to know
    how to code.

    But even AI doesn't remove the core challenge of software
    development: understanding what needs to be built, translating that
    into logical structure, and debugging edge cases. AI is a powerful tool--perhaps the most powerful yet--but it is a copilot, not a
    captain. It accelerates developers, it doesn't replace them. Just as calculators didn't eliminate the need to understand math, AI won't
    eliminate the need to understand code.

    Why the Dream Won't Die--and Why It Won't Come True ===================================================

    The repeated promises share a common mistake: underestimating what
    software development actually is. Coding is not just syntax; it's problem-solving, system design, abstraction, trade-offs, and
    communication. Each time we try to automate or abstract it away, we
    rediscover how central human reasoning is to the process.

    Software is not a commodity product. It's a living, changing
    expression of intent. Until we can automate intent, and all the
    ambiguity, creativity, and complexity it entails, there will always
    be a place for coders.

    From: <https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dream-coding-without-coders- history-persistent-marios-karagiannis-h18he>

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, November 19, 2025 01:11:09
    On Tue, 18 Nov 2025 20:59:50 -0000 (UTC), Ben Collver wrote:

    The UML Era: Modeling as Programming?
    =====================================

    No mention of the very-high-level language era? Perl was an early pioneer, also TCL and Python, even PHP. This allowed people with fairly modest computing skills to write some useful applications, and the trend
    continues through to the present day, if anything, more strongly than
    before.

    In the 2010s, a new generation of no-code and low-code platforms
    emerged: Bubble, Out Systems, Mendix, and others.

    Never heard of any of them. Must be proprietary -- i.e. dead ends.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, November 19, 2025 01:14:58
    On 18 Nov 2025 21:19:03 GMT, Stefan Ram wrote:

    There also are outright visual programming languages.

    The dataflow paradigm can be quite popular here. Example: implementation
    of Alan Turing?s reaction-diffusion model for growth and differentiation
    of biological systems <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSpkkuOOtBw>.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Ian@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, November 19, 2025 08:04:46
    On 2025-11-18, Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

    Still, some things /have/ gotten easier. I have a reader and
    writer for PNG files in Python. But it did not handle palettes
    (technically, color type 3)! So I told the chatbot to add this.
    Both the reader (191 lines) and the writer (90 lines) ran
    correctly immediately. No need to debug! The three PNG files
    I just posted here (with just 34, 11, and 12 KBytes only)?
    They all were encoded with it! The last one with a palette.

    But did the AI "write" that code, or did it just copy/paste someone
    elses work?

    --
    Ian

    "Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jason H@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, November 19, 2025 21:25:07
    On 18/11/2025 21:19, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote:
    Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> wrote or quoted:
    Why write code, the thinking went, when you could diagram it?

    There also are outright visual programming languages. See [1].

    But even AI doesn't remove the core challenge of software
    development: understanding what needs to be built.

    Yeah, see [2].

    Writing prompts for a chatbot /is/ programming. So, there still
    are "coders".

    Writing prompts for a chatbot is specification. That probably explains why
    opinions on using AIs as programming aids vary so much.


    Still, some things /have/ gotten easier. I have a reader and
    writer for PNG files in Python. But it did not handle palettes
    (technically, color type 3)! So I told the chatbot to add this.
    Both the reader (191 lines) and the writer (90 lines) ran
    correctly immediately. No need to debug! The three PNG files
    I just posted here (with just 34, 11, and 12 KBytes only)?
    They all were encoded with it! The last one with a palette.

    [1]

    .--------------------------------------------.
    | .---------------. |
    | | .----. | |
    | | ->| | | |
    .-------. | | | <= | -> | |
    [] --->| qsort |---> [] | | x ->| | | |
    '-------' | | '----' | |
    | '---------------' |
    | | |
    | v .---. |
    | .------. .-------. | | |
    .---------------. | xs -->| grep | ->| qsort | --->| | | >| .---. | | '------' '-------' | j | | >| x -->| | | .-------. | .------. | o | | >| | : | -> |-->| qsort | ->| x --->| list | --------------->| i | --> | >| xs ->| | | '-------' | '------' | n | | >| '___' | | .------. .-------. | | | >'---------------' | xs -->| grep | ->| qsort | --->| | |
    | '------' '-------' | | |
    | ^ '---' |
    | | |
    | .---------------. |
    | | .----. | |
    | | x ->| | | |
    | | | < | -> | |
    | | ->| | | |
    | | '----' | |
    | '---------------' |
    '--------------------------------------------'

    [2]

    |The hardest single part of building a software system is
    |deciding precisely what to build.
    Brooks, F.P. Jr., The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software
    Engineering, Addison Wesley, Reading, MA, 1995, Second Edition.




    --
    --
    A PICKER OF UNCONSIDERED TRIFLES

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, November 20, 2025 00:13:49
    On Wed, 19 Nov 2025 21:25:07 -0000 (UTC), Jason H wrote:

    Writing prompts for a chatbot is specification.

    ?Specification? is a human writing instructions for consumption by another human.

    Writing instructions for consumption by a machine is ?programming?.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, November 20, 2025 19:44:18
    On 20 Nov 2025 09:58:16 GMT, Stefan Ram wrote:

    | Request:
    |
    |Write a Python program to print 1, 3, 5, etc.

    for i in "1", "3", "5", "etc." :
    print(i)

    Or even

    print("1, 3, 5, etc.")

    How literal do you want to be?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)