• RFC for hardware guys?

    From bad sector@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, November 20, 2025 09:36:04
    computing about to hit full-stop?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5FovPfvf0



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, November 20, 2025 11:48:12
    On Thu, 11/20/2025 9:36 AM, bad sector wrote:
    computing about to hit full-stop?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5FovPfvf0

    It appears to be AI slop.

    Some transcription errors may exist, as I used DNN to convert
    the speech to text.

    ***************************************************************
    Almost no one knows this place exists, yet every major leap in technology starts here.

    Today, for the first time, I'm taking you inside this secret lab. And you're about to see things
    the public is never supposed to see. The technology that will power your smartphone, laptop,
    and AI data centers, 10 to 20 years from now. But before we open that door, we have to face the
    harsh truth. As a chip design engineer, I'm convinced that over the last 50 years, we lived
    through a miracle. We've managed to double the number of transistors on a chip roughly every
    two years. And that enabled MASSIVE performance gains. To understand how colossal this
    progress was, let me show you something.

    First, NVIDIA GPU. The GeForce 256 released in.
    1999 was manufactured using the 220 nanometers technology. Fast forward to today and NVIDIA is
    ramping up the production of its Rubin GPU in 3 nanometers. So in just the last 25 years we
    managed to shrunk the transistor by more than 70 times and turned graphic cards into the engine
    driving the entire AI revolution. That's the miracle we lived through. For decades, engineers
    have been carving atomic scale machines out of sand. It should be impossible. And yet, year
    after year, the chips kept getting smaller, faster, and more powerful. And for the next generation,
    we are heading into the angstrom era. We're so tiny, they barely feel real anymore. But
    here is a truth no one wanna admit. This era is actually ending.

    And this chart proves it. Right now we are running into the hard limits of physics. And as you
    will see just in a moment, transistors are now literally just a few atoms wide. They are
    becoming mechanically unstable. Heat is exploding. The alternative materials we hope would save
    us aren't scaling fast enough either. If we don't invent a new kind of device, not an upgrade,
    but a true breakthrough, the computing revolution just stops. And with it, stops everything
    that depends on the progress in computing. Technological advancements, AI, space tech, and even
    your devices. All of it will hit a performance ceiling. And right at this moment of despair,
    where the world's largest tech companies like Apple, Google, Nvidia, AMD, and even Even TSMC
    had no answers left.

    They turned to one place?a small lab in Belgium almost no one heard of. Yet, the future of
    computing is being invented right here. What happens inside these walls doesn't just advance
    tech, it decides whether innovation continues or stops. Well, if you trace back any advanced
    chip, from AMD or Nvidia to Apple Silicon, it doesn't lead to Silicon Valley or Taiwan but to
    a small quiet town in Belgium called Leuven, home to iMac. And this is not your typical chipmaker,
    it's a research hub that invents technologies that chipmakers like TSMC, Nvidia, Samsung,
    Intel gonna use in 10 to 20 years from now. Here, impossible physics problems turn into working
    prototypes long before they appear appear in Apple.

    Apple or NVIDIA Keynote No matter where you're watching this, on your smartphone, desktop, or
    even TV, all modern devices run on thin-fet transistors. A transistor is a tiny electronic switch
    that controls the flow of electricity inside the circuits. You can think of it as a microscopic
    ridge of silicon with a thin fin sticking up. This thin-fet device was a hero. Because it
    carried us. Through an entire decade of technological progress. From the first Apple silicon
    to the GPUs that power the most advanced data centers on Earth. But its time was up. To keep
    shrinking transistors, the key structure inside it, the fin, had to become thinner and thinner.
    Imagine something just 6 nanometers wide and 60 nanometers tall.

    You'd think that it's a pretty impressive size. But in the end, they literally started bending and
    snapping during the manufacturing. In fact, when the challenge becomes too complex, too expensive,
    and too risky to solve on their own, the world's biggest players Intel, Samsung, ASML, and TSMC
    all joined forces with iMac. Because all of them want eventually the same thing?a place to test
    impossible ideas before billions trying it on their own. By then, iMac had already explored every
    path they could think of, including new materials, new architectures, and new shapes. The
    problem was most of them went nowhere. And the stakes couldn't be higher. Because the wrong bet
    wouldn't just slow us down. It would set the entire semiconductor roadmap back by a decade.

    Essentially, the industry wasn't looking for a next upgrade but for a reinvention. And if any
    place can pull off a miracle, iMac. After years of failed ideas and dead ends, the answer turned
    out to be very simple. And it started with a rough catch on a whiteboard. And they asked a
    deceptively simple question. iMac? iMac? No, it's not a simple question. What if iMac becomes
    unstable? What if we just flipped it sideways? And just imagine. This simple idea became the
    second biggest turning point in microchip history?the invention of gate-all-around-transistor.
    Instead of one tall fin, engineers stacked thin sheets horizontally, supported from below, making
    them far more stable to build.

    And the first trick solved the mechanical problems that were killing FinFET. Right now, these
    devices are making their way into your next GPUs and smartphones. This innovation definitely
    bought us time. And it will carry us for another three chip generations. But it wasn't the end
    game. Because right now, even with this gate-all-around innovation, we're still running out of
    space on a chip. iMac had to go back to the drawing board again. When cities ran out of space,
    they didn't stop building?they built skyscrapers. iMac asked a bold question?why not do the same
    with transistors? Well, if we cannot shrink in 2D anymore, there's only one way. Up. Stack one
    device on top of another vertically. And you immediately die. Dobble the.

    Transistor density and now I will walk you through step by step how this technology is being
    invented. Before anyone touches a wafer, they spend years simulating this device, tweaking
    geometry, materials and then try every variation. Kill the weak ones until the numbers finally
    say this might actually work. And that's because every idea that dies here will save you years
    of effort and expenses in the fab. For CFAT, IMEC explored multiple ways to stack transistors.
    Most of them failed, but one had the pulse and that became the path forward. And when it
    finally worked, it changed everything. For the first time in history, we began building chips
    in three dear and so.

    You're gonna see it with your own.

    I could not be more excited because right now I'm taking you inside the fat see something almost
    no human eyes have ever seen one of the greatest inventions in human history first I suit up i
    n a clean room bunny suit and of course mine is like two sizes too big so I'm actually looking
    like a walking bedsheet with a badge they blast me with air just to make sure I don't contaminate
    anything inside this place is insanely delicate clean rooms must be cleaner than clean inside
    they are building technologies so tiny that one single hair, one speck of dust and a million
    dollar experiment is gone Once we are in we are heading straight to one of the coolest machines
    scanning electron microscope this is the only.

    Actually see something that small because a modern transistor is about 100 times smaller than a
    virus. Here is a catch. The moment you look at it, you cannot actually see a 2 nanometer
    structure or even a 10 nanometer structure because our eyes simply aren't built for that. Our
    eyes only work when light bounces off the objects, but to bounce from something that small,
    light is simply too big. Its wavelength is hundreds of nanometers wide, like a giant wave
    trying to hit something smaller than a virus. That's why to see transistors, light, and typical
    microscopes are practically useless. We need something far more powerful than that. We need
    electrons. That's why we're gonna use this scanning electron microscope to see the Unseen.

    First, we place the wafer inside the chamber. Inside, a thin beam of electrons scans across the
    surface of the chip, and this lets us zoom in hundreds of thousands of times. At first, what you
    see looks like simple lines. But as we increase magnification 20 thousand times, 50 thousand
    times, 150 thousand times, patterns begin to appear. What we see right now are metal contacts
    that lead to the device. They are like tiny highways carrying electrical signals into the
    transistor. And here is the brutal part. When the electron beam hits the surface of the chip, it
    instantly heats up. Stay on one spot for just a half a second too long, and the beam will destroy
    the sample. You get only a few chances before it's gone.

    This time, we had to sacrifice this one just to see what's inside. Now, Felix fires up the ion
    beam. And suddenly, a tiny opening appears. In just a split second, we cut out a slice thinner
    than a human hair by a thousand times. And only after making this cut, we can see the most
    important part of the transistor ? the nanosheet channel. The tiny layer where the electric current
    actually flows. But even this super microscope has its limits. We can actually zoom in here down
    to 10 nanometers. But we still cannot see the atoms. To go further, to see the most interesting
    part, we actually have to leave the fan and do something way more extreme. I'll show you in a
    moment.

    Now, this is where things start to get really wild because we left the fab and leveled up to
    something far more powerful. Transmission electron microscope. This one can achieve magnifications
    of up to 50 million times and we are about to look at the invention that took over a decade to
    build and cost the industry hundreds of millions to make real. Unlike the first microscope that
    shows you only the surface, this one let us see through the material almost like x-ray at the
    atomic scale. This one can zoom in far enough to see actual atoms and nothing else on Earth can
    do that. Getting to the atoms is a whole science on its own.

    Do you remember we just cut out a tiny slice of the chip 2 nanometers thick, called lamella?
    That's a slice thinner than a strand of DNA, about 13 nanometers thick. Any thicker and electrons
    can't pass through it. Now you see Felix carefully placing this tiny slice on a copper grid and
    load it into the microscope.

    I cut it short, but this preparation took us at least half an hour. And now, finally, we are
    zooming into the seafoam transistor. Now on the screen, you can see the bright shape. These are
    the metals, the contacts, and the gate. The gray regions are silicon and silicon germanium.
    And running through the image, almost like a thin thread, is the nano-sheet channel. Any path
    where electric current flows, can be carried out by the cell like a tube. And what does this
    mean? It means that the energy is passing through the cell. Right. The current flows when the
    transistor switches on. So this is the DPP type channel at the top, and here at the bottom, you
    have the N-type channel. And it's a rocket science to manufacture this channel so tiny.

    So those are atoms, you can see them here.

    What you see right now is a glimpse into one of the humanity's most advanced, tiniest creations ?
    the seafoam. For the first time in history, two transistors stand on top of each other, taking
    more power into less space and opening the door to a new era of computing.

    And now, if we zoom in...

    You can see the single atoms of the channel. And this view is as close to the heart of the chip
    as you can get. And this channel is about 30 atoms thick. When I saw this, I just froze. Because
    this was the physical limit of reality. Right in front of me. There's a catch, though. Because
    to look at it, we literally shoot electrons at the device, and every second we rotate the person.
    And every second we risk to destroy it. Fun, right? But also terrifying. Every image feels like
    a one-time chance. Like a shooting star. You're admiring it, knowing that it's gonna disappear.
    Why does this process ? we went just through, SAM, NTM, which is so expensive and requires a lot
    of training to do ? matter so much? In fact, this isn't just for cool visuals.

    These are two critical steps in inventing every new chip technology.

    Because modern chipmaking involves building these tiny structures layer by layer, which involves
    thousands of steps. And at each stage, engineers need to check if the structures are still perfect
    or if something went wrong. And if something went wrong, they need to figure out why and fix the
    process. What you are seeing right now actually decides everything. It decides the fate of this
    innovation, if it moves forward or if it ends right here. Most people think new chip technology
    just appears every few years, as if someone wakes up and says, this is the next transistor. But
    the reality is very different. In fact, from the moment a new transistor is imagined till the
    moment it will end up in your phone, you are looking at 18 to 20 years.

    And so far, we have explored just a tiny part of this innovation process. But I'm sure you already
    can see why this is one of the hardest engineering challenges on the planet. And I was lucky to
    talk to Serge Bissamans, who led the invention of CIFAD technology at IMEX. He is basically
    leading the innovation that NVIDIA, TSMC, Intel and Apple will depend on in a decade from now.
    And even when you come up with a perfect design, if the tools physically can't build it, the
    idea dies. Because in this industry, a new device isn't just a design challenge. It's an
    equipment challenge. In some sense, some people say Moore's law isn't capability law.

    If the tool does not exist to print smaller features, if the tool does not exist to remove certain
    materials selective to others, you would not be able to physically build the complicated structure
    on your safer. And CIFAD invention pushed tools harder than anything before it. In fact, to stack
    two transistors on top of each other, they needed an entire new generation of tools. You have to
    be able to precisely etch and build tall and narrow structures without letting them collapse.
    Grow and remove materials layer by layer without damaging anything underneath it. And you have to
    be able to deliver power from the backside of the wafer, something that has never been done before.

    That required new etching and deposition systems, new epitaxy techniques, new backside power process.
    And on top of that, new tools capable of.

    Measuring details that once were literally invisible. That's why iMac works closely with tool makers
    like ASML, the key edge deposition and EPI suppliers, and key material suppliers to co-develop
    equipment and materials required to turn these ideas into reality. And these tools aren't cheap.
    The EUV scanner alone, the queen of all chip making equipment, now costs over 250 million dollars
    per unit. Most of the others range from 10 to 50 million each. And to run even an experimental Fab
    line, you need about 200 of them. And once the early version of these tools exist, they don't go
    directly to JSMC or Intel, they first land here, at iMac. That's where researchers test them
    directly on silicone.

    Long before any chip maker is even allowed to touch them. Right now, here, at the iMac Fab, they're
    assembling the new high NA UV lithography machine from ASML. The most advanced lithography machine
    ever made. They didn't let us film that part, of course, but trust me, this single machine will
    fill an entire call. If the results look promising. Only then I'm sure. iMac moves the work to its
    pilot line. Its test kitchen where manufacturing flow is perfected. Because to make C-FAT real,
    iMac isn't just developing the new device, they're reinventing the entire recipe. A recipe where
    new tools, new materials, and new techniques all work together in a perfect sync. And while the
    journey to make C-FAT manufacturable is still underway.

    It's already working on what is next after CFAT. Because in this industry, if you wait until the
    current technology runs out of steam, you are already too late. Now here is the part no one likes
    to admit. The future is still unknown. CFAT buys us a decade, but after that, for the first time
    in the chip history, there is no clear roadmap after CFAT. No one even iMac doesn't know what is
    coming next. The only thing is certain. CFAT cannot lower power or heat enough for the future AI
    demands. Here we would need something more to break the loss that limits the silicon itself. Now
    what comes after CFAT, the only thing that I can think of is that we start stacking even more
    layers. The reason that we stack is because we can no longer. because we can no longer scale
    X and Y.

    I don't think that there is any idea right now out there that can easily scale X, Y. So that means
    we have to make use of the vertical dimension. And CFET is just the first generation of learning
    how to do so. If we master that by the mid-30s, next decade, I believe that opens up room for not
    only hybrid channels, but also hybrid technology. Well, that's interesting. And we have to talk
    about this. Because if you look at the history of computing, first, the progress came from one just
    one thing. Shrinking transistors. But it's not the case if you look at what's happening right
    now. Around the 2020, the physics of making transistors smaller and smaller started to flatten.
    Costs exploded. Heat exploded. And physics stops cooperating. This is the wall we spoke about.
    CFET will extend this line a little, little bit further.

    It buys us time. It might carry us towards 2030, but it doesn't restore the exponential growth.
    This era is gone. Right now, the industry is forced to change the very definition of Moore's law.
    Because if you cannot make transistors significantly better, you have to make the whole system
    significantly better. In fact, in the modern chips, performance doesn't come just from smaller
    transistors. It comes from how fast many chiplets talk to each other. Now, instead of building
    one giant chip, companies combine multiple smaller chips side by side or even vertically to
    unlock far more power in a single package. And that approach changed everything. Right now,
    chiplets on the chip sit centimeters apart. And at this distance, communication.

    Starts from the tip of their tongue. This is like shouting across a football stadium. It's wastes
    energy, and it slows everything down. A promising solution is to let these chiplets talk using
    light instead of electricity. This is silicon photonics. Today, this technology is used to
    connect GPU racks across data centers. But soon, it will move inside the chip package itself.
    Letting chiplets to communicate with light at incredible speeds. Right now, silicon photonics
    still consumes way too much power to be used everywhere, especially inside laptops and
    smartphones. The lasers run hot, waste energy, and the whole system is extremely sensitive to
    the temperature. You often need heaters just to keep the light stable, and this sort of defeats
    the purpose of saving energy. This is where iMac steps in. They are not trying to prove that
    silicon photonic works.

    This is a done part. But they are trying to make it efficient enough so it can be used everywhere.
    Right now, they experiment with advanced optical materials you can't use in the normal fab, like
    barium titanide. For your audience, which I am one of them, by the way, this particular one is
    too detailed. But it fits the material story. So, photonics exist. The good thing is it can be
    fabricated in any production line. Photonics is still a little bit power hungry. But there are
    materials that are optically very, very interesting but that are not fab compatible. We can at
    least deposit those materials on 300 millimeter. We can pattern them. We can do the optical
    characterization in a realistic... So, those are the type of research. So, new materials to
    scale the power budget of the photonic circuit. That's kind of, I would say, the tagline of what
    we are trying to do here. If IMEC is able to pull this off.

    It's the whole new leap in computing. Just imagine, this kind of technology that today only
    NVIDIA can afford to use in their giant GPU clusters could one day run inside your laptop.
    Or your smartphone. iMac Vision goes far beyond that. Right now, they're working on stacking
    entire wafers on top of each other. Imagine taking two switches. And perfectly stacking one
    on top of the other, with every street aligned. And if this works, we could eliminate most
    of the communication wiring between chips. And this means lower power consumption, higher
    speed, and most importantly, the ability to stack different types of chips and different types
    of materials on top of each other, not just silicon. And this leads us to a future where chips
    won't be flat anymore. anymore. They will look like it.

    It's like 3D computing. Cube. There is still one more curve ahead. One that might completely
    change what a processor even means. To eventually use light instead of electrons for computation.
    Here is the interesting part. iMac isn't betting just on one future. Right now, they have
    multiple teams racing in parallel, each exploring a completely different path. To what might
    come after silicon. And no one knows which one, if any, will work. Right now, they are testing
    ternary logic, reversible logic, spintronics, cryogenic CMOS. And you are lucky, because
    all of these technologies are already covered on this channel. But eventually, we might need
    an entirely new device. One that follows different laws of physics.

    Siliconabase. I'm kinda proud to say that I probably touched upon all materials in the Meninov
    table, except the ones that radiate at night, the, um, the, the, the radiative materials. But
    other than that, we've probably touched upon most of them, if they are available in a
    300-millimeter clean room environment. Right now, they are experimenting with germanium,
    graphene, 2D crystals like transition metal dichalcogenides. They're used to create another
    thin layer of passes. Even carbon nanotubes, materials just a few atoms thick. And they all
    look amazing under the microscope. But the challenge is turning them from tiny lab samples into
    the real technology, ready for mass production. The future is not decided. IMEC, in
    collaboration with its partners, saved Moore's law not once, not even twice. And right now,
    they are racing against limitation. against limits of.

    Time, energy, and physics itself. The future of computing might be already here, in one of
    the experimental wafers in Leuven. Even IOMAC doesn't know if it will work. What makes this
    unique IOMAC model to work isn't just engineers and tools and partners, but neutrality.
    IOMAC is non-profit. It does not compete with anyone. And their secret edge is that they have
    an entire semiconductor factory on site, built just for the research. And now they're
    expansioning it to more and more buildings to run more experiments. Most universities dream
    about one clean room. IOMAC has an entire production line. The mix of brains, machines,
    and neutrality makes IOMAC something rare. Not just a lab, but the world's.

    World-famous product. They want to create the next generation of chips. So now you can
    literally forget Belgian chocolate or waffles, because IOMAC wafers is what the entire
    tech industry is really addicted to. Now, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with your
    friends and colleagues, and watch this video where I explain what it takes to build a
    semiconductor factory and to manufacture these devices. You will love it. Thank you,
    and I will see you there.

    ***************************************************************

    I'm sure when I post this, it'll set off the sporge detector on ES.

    It's a good thing I got dsnote working, saved me watching the vid.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Mr. Man-wai Chang@3:633/10 to All on Friday, November 21, 2025 22:50:32
    On 21/11/2025 12:48 am, Paul wrote:

    I'm sure when I post this, it'll set off the sporge detector on ES.

    It's a good thing I got dsnote working, saved me watching the vid.


    Saved my time as well.... for not watching it. :)

    --
    @~@ Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
    / v \ May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
    /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^ https://github.com/changmw/changmw

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Friday, November 21, 2025 11:32:05
    On Thu, 11/20/2025 9:36 AM, bad sector wrote:
    computing about to hit full-stop?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5FovPfvf0

    I pulled some material (breadcrumbs) from the previous
    text I posted, and did a Google.

    "belgium transition metal dichalcogenides imec"

    The transition metal dichalcogenides are already being used in solar panels for some purpose, and it's possible Optane (equivalent to NAND flash) was implemented
    in a chalcogenide. Something related saw use in M-DISCs as an archival flavor of DVD and BluRay disc. The material is not novel, having already been circulating
    in the research sphere.

    https://www.imec-int.com/en/articles/introducing-2d-material-based-devices-logic-scaling-roadmap

    Something you should know about the electronics business, is they will
    "double down on what they got" repeatedly. And you would say while
    looking at that, "why do they keep doing this?". Well, it's partly
    because the costs are well understood, people make money while doing it,
    the risk is "controllable". But, on the other hand, the participants
    have also been burned by holding onto that hand of cards for too long.
    This is why AMD got rid of its fab, and they couldn't double down
    any more. (They did three generations of strained silicon which
    saw no real incremental improvement.) For Intel, it was the 14nm++++++ chips. They were enjoying themselves while trying to tip their fab story upright.

    The noteworthy things for me are:

    1) PCBs for motherboards. Still fabricated from FR-4 or similar. We in the lab
    got to witness a product shipping with a 10GHz signal crossing a PCB diagonally
    using an air line (a microwave pipe) situated above the PCB. Why did they do
    that ? The microwave guy on their team told them the signal would be attenuated
    so much by travel through FR-4, that only an air line could carry such a signal.

    Time has proven this person wrong. We're doing PCIe Rev5 on FR-4. Nobody has
    resorted to teflon outer-layer exotic dielectric for high speed signals. There
    is talk of needing "regenerators", but if you look at the motherboards
    coming out, do you see a "regenerator-per-pcie-lane" ? Nope. Not there.
    They somehow got a signal with enough amplitude, to the video card slot next
    to the CPU. They are resorting to PAM coding for low amplitude signals,
    which adds to the complexity of the PHY, but nobody cares as long as they
    don't have to design that :-) In other words, fancy coding methods can be
    bandwidth efficient enough, we're still using FR-4. Double double double down.

    I gave up predicting motherboards would change, a long time ago. It's just
    not going to happen.

    2) Regarding your video, there have always been predictions of doom and gloom.
    For example, the DRAM we use now "wouldn't have enough electrons stored on
    the floating gate to represent a 1 or a 0". Wrong again. We've also had
    doomers tell us "the CPU blocks will need to be duplicated so they can
    check one another for errors". Wrong again. We're still not doing "reliability
    restoring" logic design. Proved to be utter bullshit. I was doing
    reliability restoring logic design in 1980 (and, for no particular reason at
    all, just the project lead had a fetish for this, a cool fetish none the less).

    The people in the wheel house, calling these things, they just keep their
    heads down and they press forward. They make small incremental changes.
    They hardly EVER change anything fundamental, because it might mean
    throwing away $10 billion in investment, for some of the stuff advertised
    in that video. And then, you're waiting two years for the yield to improve,
    and maybe your business goes bankrupt while you are doing this.

    Some of the development work, is at a different level. We need substrates where the atoms are in highly highly regular patterns. The LED lightbulbs we use
    are an example. The more dislocations you can remove from the lightbulb substrate, the brighter the bulb gets. Currently, 80lm per watt bulbs ship
    in bulk. Lab experiments have achieved perhaps close to 200lm per watt bulbs. But guess what. For all the lab research done, the transition of the spiffy stuff, doesn't make it into production. And that's sort of the best
    analogy for how we make CPUs. Novel technology, promising to save the world? The response from the people in the wheel house is "go away, I'm... busy".
    They choose to solve problems using the materials to hand. The latest
    tweak, is the addition of "scandium" (check periodic table) to something
    in the chip. We're searching through the periodic table, for "herbs and spices". Changing from aluminum to copper, just wasn't enough for them.

    The lab in the video, is undoubtedly looking for seed funding. And some day, one of their patents will bear fruit and they'll have a revenue stream.
    An example of a company feeding from the patent domain, is RAMBUS.
    RAMBUS plays a part in a lot of stuff in your room, even though
    RAMBUS no longer stamps their name on stuff. But they have patents
    which are part of generational changes in DRAM and other things. The
    IMEC lab then, would be similar to a RAMBUS play. It's pretty hard to
    do that, and consistently stay in business. Every generation, someone
    has to buy one of your ideas, so you can keep the research lab afloat.

    Paul

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