On 10-26-18 08:39, Jagossel wrote to Nightfox <=-

That wasn't the impression that I got years ago. I thought with Windows
8, they did come up with an ARM version of Windows, and it was called "Windows 8 RT", and was not well received by the consumers and
Microsoft scraped the idea pretty quickly when Windows 8.1 was released (or at least pulled it off the market pretty quickly).

I think when people see "Windows", they expect to be able to do everything on it that they can on their (Windows) desktop or laptop, while Windows RT, from what I understand was an experience that was more like using a tablet - limited app selection, etc.


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On 10-26-18 09:56, Nightfox wrote to Jagossel <=-

though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and will run desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator for compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.

That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?


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That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in
terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get
it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?

What exactly is the advantage of having ARM processors? Is it just battery life? As I understand, obtaining additional speed out of a CPU is problematic due to the physics limitations of current CPU hardware. Therefore, it's unlikely that any CPU would outperform an Intel in the immediate future.


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Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
By: Nightfox to Android8675 on Thu Oct 25 2018 17:08:42

only difference between a 68k and PowerPC was 16-bti vs. 32-bit, the changet o Intel was significated because the Intel CPU wasn't compabible with 68k/PPC code which is why for a while OSx could run on

hmm, I always thought the transition from 68k to PowerPC was also significant because the PowerPC used a different instruction set. I've always heard Apple had to use emulation to be backwards-compatible with 68k. "Perhaps the most important feature of the new Power Macs was Apple's inclusion of a 680x0 emulator as part of Mac OS, which allowed PowerPC Macs to run most existing software efficiently on the new processors, much as Rosetta would later allow Intel Macs ro run PowerPC software."

It's actually more significant than that, even. The PowerPC's emulation of the 68k is actually at the hardware level, rather than in software. Since the PowerPC was developed by Apple, IBM, and Motorola, one of it's main functions was specifically to replace the 68k, and software-level emulation at that point wasn't anywhere near efficient enough to do so effectively. So the emulation is built into the chips themselves.

Apple stopped supporting PowerPC after Leopard... but the Classic MacOS -- OS9, whatever, which still had a lot of native 68k libraries -- would run on any PowerPC Mac, up to the G5 (the G5 had to do it from within OSX because of a firmware change; the G4, though, could boot as OS9).

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Re: Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Sat Oct 27 2018 11:30 am

though. This new ARM Windows 10 has the desktop interface and will
run desktop Windows software, and even includes an x86 emulator for
compatibility so it can run 32-bit Intel software on ARM.

That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?

I'm wondering if a lot of Windows software will still have a 32-bit option for a while, since 64-bit Intel/AMD processors can run 32-bit software without much (if any) performance impact.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
By: Derision to Nightfox on Sun Oct 28 2018 01:35 pm

It's actually more significant than that, even. The PowerPC's emulation of the 68k is actually at the hardware level, rather than in software. Since the PowerPC was developed by Apple, IBM, and Motorola, one of it's main functions was specifically to replace the 68k, and software-level emulation at that point wasn't anywhere near efficient enough to do so effectively. So the emulation is built into the chips themselves.

Interesting.. I do remember hearing somewhere that Mac software for 68k sometimes ran better on the PowerPC - Probably due to the hardware backwards compatibility.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Microsoft Win10 ARM
By: Chai to Vk3jed on Sat Oct 27 2018 05:14 pm

What exactly is the advantage of having ARM processors? Is it just battery life? As I understand, obtaining additional speed out of a CPU is problematic due to the physics limitations of current CPU hardware. Therefore, it's unlikely that any CPU would outperform an Intel in the immediate future.

I believe battery life is a main advantage, and perhaps performance per watt. Intel's processors with their 10 nanometer manufacturing technology has been significantly delayed, and I think some companies are worried that Intel is stagnating.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Running linux in vm on li
By: Nightfox to Derision on Mon Oct 29 2018 09:49:50

It's actually more significant than that, even. The PowerPC's emulation of the 68k is actually at the hardware level, rather than in software.

Interesting.. I do remember hearing somewhere that Mac software for 68k sometimes ran better on the PowerPC - Probably due to the hardware backwards compatibility.

Absolutely. The earliest PowerPC chips, while faster overall the the 68040s that came before them, didn't execute code quite as fast. So a 100Mhz PowerPC 601 actually performed 68k stuff slower than a 25Mhz 68040, but that was fixed later on by adding cache and whatnot and, I think, dynamically recompiling some of the code to native PowerPC.

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On 10-29-18 09:48, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

That may have better luck, depending on how good the emulation is in terms of both speed and accuracy. Time will tell. But will they get it out in time, before all the popular Windows software goes 64 bit?

I'm wondering if a lot of Windows software will still have a 32-bit
option for a while, since 64-bit Intel/AMD processors can run 32-bit software without much (if any) performance impact.

Hard to tell. The tipping point will be when memory requirements start to exceed a few GB for a single instance, then 64 bit will become highly advantageous, same if we see a lot of common software manipulating lots of huge numbers or data structures.


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