I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to
have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel
but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
Given that its successor - the HST - has lasted about 50 years, what
was so bad about the Pullman? Was this a case of money squandered by
the British Transport Commission and was there ever an inquiry?
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at 09:59:28 on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to
have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel
but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high
maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Given that its successor - the HST - has lasted about 50 years, what was so bad about the Pullman? Was this a case of money squandered by the British Transport Commission and was there ever an inquiry?
Probably not, in both instances.
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at 09:59:28 on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to
have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel
but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high
maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at 09:59:28 on
Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to
have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel
but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high
maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to
Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto
viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
And I used to trainspot at St. Albans!
Given that its successor - the HST - has lasted about 50 years, what
was so bad about the Pullman? Was this a case of money squandered by
the British Transport Commission and was there ever an inquiry?
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at 09:59:28 on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to
have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel
but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high
maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more like a 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at 09:59:28
on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel >>>>> but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >>>>> maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to
Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto
viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more like a
1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered,
slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon
superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip
per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost
empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was
electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman
units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I
think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from
London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at 09:59:28 on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel >>>>> but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >>>>> maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more like a 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip
per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost
empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was
electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman
units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I
think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from
London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 16:55:17 +0100, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:Surely all of this should have been known before the units were
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote: >>>
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at 09:59:28 >>>>> on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked: >>>>>> I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel >>>>>> but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >>>>>> maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to
Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto
viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more like a
1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered,
slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon
superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip
per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost
empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was
electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman
units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I
think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from
London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
constructed?
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 16:55:17 +0100, Bevan PriceI think they must have been regarded as an experimental or prototype design >for ?high speed? diesel mainline passenger trains. So they didn?t need to
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:Surely all of this should have been known before the units were
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote: >>>>
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at 09:59:28 >>>>>> on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked: >>>>>>> I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel >>>>>>> but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >>>>>>> maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to
Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto
viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more like a >>>> 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered,
slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon
superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip
per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost
empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was
electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman
units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I
think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from
London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
constructed?
be profitable in themselves, but were an engineering and marketing test. It >looks like they failed on both grounds, but paved the way for the extremely >successful HST design.
On Tue, 01 Sep 2026 16:46:37 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 16:55:17 +0100, Bevan PriceI think they must have been regarded as an experimental or prototype design >> for ?high speed? diesel mainline passenger trains. So they didn?t need to
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:Surely all of this should have been known before the units were
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote: >>>>>
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at 09:59:28 >>>>>>> on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked: >>>>>>>> I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel >>>>>>>> but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >>>>>>>> maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to
Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto
viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more like a >>>>> 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered,
slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon
superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip >>>> per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost >>>> empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was
electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman >>>> units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I
think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from
London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
constructed?
be profitable in themselves, but were an engineering and marketing test. It >> looks like they failed on both grounds, but paved the way for the extremely >> successful HST design.
No influence on the APT then?
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 16:55:17 +0100, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:Surely all of this should have been known before the units were
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote: >>>
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at >>>>>09:59:28 on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel >>>>>> but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >>>>>> maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to >>>>>Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto >>>>viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more
like a 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, >>>slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon >>>superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more
comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip
per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost >>empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was >>electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman
units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I
think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from
London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
constructed?
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
dington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
Surely all of this should have been known before the units were
constructed?
I think they must have been regarded as an experimental or prototype design for ?high speed? diesel mainline passenger trains. So they didn?t need to
be profitable in themselves, but were an engineering and marketing test. It looks like they failed on both grounds, but paved the way for the extremely successful HST design.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow,
rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper
Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much
faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project could be spun up so rapidly.
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, >>> rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper >>> Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project
could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from
an engineering perspective.
In message <orvd9l97tdm7n3tb5jnfg0dlvco5mlbmld@4ax.com>, at 17:38:49 on
Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 16:55:17 +0100, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:Surely all of this should have been known before the units were >>constructed?
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote: >>>>
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at >>>>>>09:59:28 on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>>>
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel >>>>>>> but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >>>>>>> maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to >>>>>>Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto >>>>>viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more
like a 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, >>>>slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon >>>>superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more
comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip
per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost >>>empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was >>>electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman >>>units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I >>>think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from >>>London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
Welcome to pre-privatisation, where the left and right hands of British
Rail barely even knew the other existed.
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, >>> rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper >>> Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project >> could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from
an engineering perspective.
I understood (entirely from a position of lack of knowledge) that the
HST was a return to traditional design principles at a time that the
APT project was going badly.
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:I understood (entirely from a position of lack of knowledge) that the
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, >>>> rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper >>>> Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project >>> could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST?
Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from
an engineering perspective.
HST was a return to traditional design principles at a time that the
APT project was going badly.
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> posted:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:I understood (entirely from a position of lack of knowledge) that the
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, >>>>> rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper >>>>> Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>>>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project >>>> could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >>> Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from >>> an engineering perspective.
HST was a return to traditional design principles at a time that the
APT project was going badly.
Those were more or less parallel projects? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Wow! Hardly any UK rail enthusiasts had any idea of that!
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> posted:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:I understood (entirely from a position of lack of knowledge) that the
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow,
rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper
Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>>>>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project >>>>> could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >>>> Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from >>>> an engineering perspective.
HST was a return to traditional design principles at a time that the
APT project was going badly.
Those were more or less parallel projects?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train
On Wed, 02 Sep 2026 09:31:25 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Wow! Hardly any UK rail enthusiasts had any idea of that!
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> posted:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:I understood (entirely from a position of lack of knowledge) that the
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow,
rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper
Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much
faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project
could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >>>>> Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from >>>>> an engineering perspective.
HST was a return to traditional design principles at a time that the
APT project was going badly.
Those were more or less parallel projects?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train
To be fair, I didn't. I thought HST was in effect plan B when APT went
tits up. I appreciate the clarification.
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Sep 2026 09:31:25 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Wow! Hardly any UK rail enthusiasts had any idea of that!
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> posted:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:I understood (entirely from a position of lack of knowledge) that the >>>> HST was a return to traditional design principles at a time that the >>>> APT project was going badly.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow,
rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper
Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more >>>>>>> comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much
faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project
could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST?
Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance >>>>> routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from
an engineering perspective.
Those were more or less parallel projects?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train
To be fair, I didn't. I thought HST was in effect plan B when APT went
tits up. I appreciate the clarification.
And you were right. The APT project started in 1969, and the first
prototype was running by 1972, and by then it was already clear that there was a very steep learning curve ahead. The HST project started slightly later, and was much simpler, being intended purely as an interim solution while the APT was sorted out. It was also intended for straighter routes
than the WCML, and in fact was never used on the WCML.
And you were right. The APT project started in 1969, and the first
prototype was running by 1972, and by then it was already clear that there >> was a very steep learning curve ahead. The HST project started slightly
later, and was much simpler, being intended purely as an interim solution
while the APT was sorted out. It was also intended for straighter routes
than the WCML, and in fact was never used on the WCML.
Never say never. >https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hsts-on-west-coast-main-line.162053/
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, >>> rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper >>> Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project
could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from
an engineering perspective.
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, >>>> rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper >>>> Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project >>> could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST?
Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from
an engineering perspective.
No, there wasn't. The Blue Pullman was an attempt to create a high quality DMU. The HST was simply a new design of traditional loco haulage, the only visual novelty being the use of two asymmetrical locos to top and tail the train in order to remove any need for running round.
I suppose you could argue that the double-ended design is inspired by DMUs, but it's as much inspired by a Derby Lightweight as by the Blue Pullman.
To those unfamiliar with railways, the HST in action looks like a DMU. But apart from the double-ended design it has nothing else in common with DMUs
Mark
On Wed, 02 Sep 2026 09:31:25 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Wow! Hardly any UK rail enthusiasts had any idea of that!
Those were more or less parallel projects?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train
To be fair, I didn't. I thought HST was in effect plan B when APT went
tits up. I appreciate the clarification.
On Wed, 02 Sep 2026 10:36:11 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Sep 2026 09:31:25 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Wow! Hardly any UK rail enthusiasts had any idea of that!
Those were more or less parallel projects?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train
To be fair, I didn't. I thought HST was in effect plan B when APT went
tits up. I appreciate the clarification.
It's a common misconception. The APT was always a more complex, more long-term project. But, as an EMU, it was never going to be used across the network. In particular, it wasn't - at the time - going to run on the ECML. So the HST was a separate project, aimed at filling those gaps. And because the HST was based very much on existing technology, it was a simpler and quicker project.
It's also a misconception that the APT was a failure. It was an entirely new design, using entirely new technology, and there were inevitable snags and teething troubles along the way. In particular, the prototypes were pushed into service earlier than they should have been, and the resulting reliability issues attracted a lot of bad publicity. But once the issues had been solved, the units were reliable and effective. The reasons they didn't go beyond the prototype stage were far more political than engineering.
And, of course, the APT is the forerunner of current high speed EMUs such as the Pendolino. The HST, effective and successful though it was, was firmly
in the long-established tradition of diesel loco-hauled trains. Arguably, it was the last great high speed diesel passsenger loco. Other than various specials and charters, diesel loco haulage is now almost entirely confined
to freight. The APT, by contrast, sits at the beginning of a timeline that
is still ongoing.
Mark
Other than various specials and charters, diesel loco haulage is now >>almost entirely confined to freight. The APT, by contrast, sits at
the beginning of a timeline that is still ongoing.
Isn?t the Cardiff to Manchester service Diesel loco hauled stock? As are
the various Scottish parts of the sleeper, and the GWR sleeper.
In message <1179nmc$310uj$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:08 on Wed, 2 Sep
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Other than various specials and charters, diesel loco haulage is now
almost entirely confined to freight. The APT, by contrast, sits at
the beginning of a timeline that is still ongoing.
Isn?t the Cardiff to Manchester service Diesel loco hauled stock? As are
the various Scottish parts of the sleeper, and the GWR sleeper.
What do you think "almost always" means?
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 18:35:52 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
In message <orvd9l97tdm7n3tb5jnfg0dlvco5mlbmld@4ax.com>, at 17:38:49 on
Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 16:55:17 +0100, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:Surely all of this should have been known before the units were
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote: >>>>>
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at
09:59:28 on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>>>>
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel >>>>>>>> but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >>>>>>>> maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality.
An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out.
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to
Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto
viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more
like a 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered,
slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon
superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more
comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip
per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost >>>> empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was
electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman
units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I
think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from
London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
constructed?
Welcome to pre-privatisation, where the left and right hands of British
Rail barely even knew the other existed.
Does anyone remember Sir Brian Robertson (Chairman of British
Transport Commission), seen in one of the Blue Pullman videos? There
is a plaque to him at Glasgow Queen Street.
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
And, of course, the APT is the forerunner of current high speed EMUs such as
the Pendolino. The HST, effective and successful though it was, was firmly in the long-established tradition of diesel loco-hauled trains. Arguably, it
was the last great high speed diesel passsenger loco. Other than various specials and charters, diesel loco haulage is now almost entirely confined to freight. The APT, by contrast, sits at the beginning of a timeline that is still ongoing.
Mark
Isn?t the Cardiff to Manchester service Diesel loco hauled stock? As are
the various Scottish parts of the sleeper, and the GWR sleeper.
On 02/09/2026 10:07, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 18:35:52 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
In message <orvd9l97tdm7n3tb5jnfg0dlvco5mlbmld@4ax.com>, at 17:38:49 on
Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 16:55:17 +0100, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:Surely all of this should have been known before the units were
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at
09:59:28 on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>>>>>
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>>>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travel >>>>>>>>> but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high >>>>>>>>> maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality. >>>>>>>>An experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out. >>>>>>>>
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to
Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto >>>>>>> viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more
like a 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, >>>>>> slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon
superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more
comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip >>>>> per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost >>>>> empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was
electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman >>>>> units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I
think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from >>>>> London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
constructed?
Welcome to pre-privatisation, where the left and right hands of British
Rail barely even knew the other existed.
Does anyone remember Sir Brian Robertson (Chairman of British
Transport Commission), seen in one of the Blue Pullman videos? There
is a plaque to him at Glasgow Queen Street.
Never met him, but he was a retired general. Not sure how much , if any, >personal knowledge he had about railways.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <1179nmc$310uj$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:08 on Wed, 2 Sep
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Other than various specials and charters, diesel loco haulage is now
almost entirely confined to freight. The APT, by contrast, sits at
the beginning of a timeline that is still ongoing.
Isn?t the Cardiff to Manchester service Diesel loco hauled stock? As are >>> the various Scottish parts of the sleeper, and the GWR sleeper.
What do you think "almost always" means?
Where?s the boundary for ?almost??
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
And, of course, the APT is the forerunner of current high speed EMUs such as
the Pendolino. The HST, effective and successful though it was, was firmly >>> in the long-established tradition of diesel loco-hauled trains. Arguably, it
was the last great high speed diesel passsenger loco. Other than various >>> specials and charters, diesel loco haulage is now almost entirely confined >>> to freight. The APT, by contrast, sits at the beginning of a timeline that >>> is still ongoing.
Mark
Isn?t the Cardiff to Manchester service Diesel loco hauled stock? As are
the various Scottish parts of the sleeper, and the GWR sleeper.
Plus Chiltern have recently updated their LHCS offer, with 'new' (ish) Mk5s hauled by a diesel loco.
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, >>>> rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper >>>> Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project >>> could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST?
Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from
an engineering perspective.
No, there wasn't. The Blue Pullman was an attempt to create a high quality DMU. The HST was simply a new design of traditional loco haulage, the only visual novelty being the use of two asymmetrical locos to top and tail the train in order to remove any need for running round.
I suppose you could argue that the double-ended design is inspired by DMUs, but it's as much inspired by a Derby Lightweight as by the Blue Pullman.
To those unfamiliar with railways, the HST in action looks like a DMU. But apart from the double-ended design it has nothing else in common with DMUs
On 02/09/2026 18:04, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, >>>>> rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper >>>>> Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>>>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project >>>> could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >>> Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from
an engineering perspective.
No, there wasn't. The Blue Pullman was an attempt to create a high quality >> DMU. The HST was simply a new design of traditional loco haulage, the only >> visual novelty being the use of two asymmetrical locos to top and tail the >> train in order to remove any need for running round.
I suppose you could argue that the double-ended design is inspired by DMUs, >> but it's as much inspired by a Derby Lightweight as by the Blue Pullman.
To those unfamiliar with railways, the HST in action looks like a DMU. But >> apart from the double-ended design it has nothing else in common with DMUs
The end cars of the HST stayed coupled to the middle section for long periods, like DMUs but unlike most loco-hauled carriage stock.
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 02/09/2026 18:04, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:The end cars of the HST stayed coupled to the middle section for long
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow,
rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper
Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>>>>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project >>>>> could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >>>> Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from >>>> an engineering perspective.
No, there wasn't. The Blue Pullman was an attempt to create a high quality >>> DMU. The HST was simply a new design of traditional loco haulage, the only >>> visual novelty being the use of two asymmetrical locos to top and tail the >>> train in order to remove any need for running round.
I suppose you could argue that the double-ended design is inspired by DMUs, >>> but it's as much inspired by a Derby Lightweight as by the Blue Pullman. >>>
To those unfamiliar with railways, the HST in action looks like a DMU. But >>> apart from the double-ended design it has nothing else in common with DMUs >>
periods, like DMUs but unlike most loco-hauled carriage stock.
Also, the HST coaches couldn?t be hauled by any other locos.
So there have been endless arguments about whether they?re DMUs or LHCS.
It's also a misconception that the APT was a failure. It was an entirely new >design, using entirely new technology, and there were inevitable snags and >teething troubles along the way. In particular, the prototypes were pushed >into service earlier than they should have been, and the resulting >reliability issues attracted a lot of bad publicity. But once the issues had >been solved, the units were reliable and effective. The reasons they didn't >go beyond the prototype stage were far more political than engineering.
On Wed, 02 Sep 2026 10:36:11 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Sep 2026 09:31:25 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> >wrote:
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
Wow! Hardly any UK rail enthusiasts had any idea of that!
Those were more or less parallel projects?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Passenger_Train
To be fair, I didn't. I thought HST was in effect plan B when APT went
tits up. I appreciate the clarification.
It's a common misconception. The APT was always a more complex, more long-term project. But, as an EMU, it was never going to be used across the network. In particular, it wasn't - at the time - going to run on the ECML. So the HST was a separate project, aimed at filling those gaps. And because the HST was based very much on existing technology, it was a simpler and quicker project.
It's also a misconception that the APT was a failure. It was an entirely new design, using entirely new technology, and there were inevitable snags and teething troubles along the way. In particular, the prototypes were pushed into service earlier than they should have been, and the resulting reliability issues attracted a lot of bad publicity. But once the issues had been solved, the units were reliable and effective. The reasons they didn't go beyond the prototype stage were far more political than engineering.
And, of course, the APT is the forerunner of current high speed EMUs such as the Pendolino. The HST, effective and successful though it was, was firmly
in the long-established tradition of diesel loco-hauled trains. Arguably, it was the last great high speed diesel passsenger loco.
On 02/09/2026 10:07, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 18:35:52 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
In message <orvd9l97tdm7n3tb5jnfg0dlvco5mlbmld@4ax.com>, at 17:38:49 on
Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 16:55:17 +0100, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 13:38, Recliner wrote:Surely all of this should have been known before the units were
On Tue, 1 Sep 2026 10:40:49 +0100, Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 10:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <3m4d9ldlrmieoq7uo50qrl7tbm4rqmcq8n@4ax.com>, at
09:59:28 on Tue, 1 Sep 2026, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>>>>
I watched a video at the weekend aboat the Blue Pullman. It seems to >>>>>>>> have been a very sophisticated train built to compete with air travelAn experiment at the bleeding edge. They don't always work out. >>>>>>>
but it was scrapped after only 12 years. AI says this was due to high
maintenance costs, non-standard design and poor ride quality. >>>>>>>
iirc they tended to work on the MML/Nottingham_Direct up to
Derby/Nottingham, Sheffield and across to Manchester, which
wasn't the fastest of lines.
Yes, one can now walk along the Monsal Trail, out of tunnels onto >>>>>> viaducts, dreaming about those fabulously styled trains.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more
like a 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, >>>>> slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon
superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more
comfortable, quieter HSTs.
The Manchester Pullman service was inefficient - just one return trip >>>> per day between Manchester Central & London St.Pancras, plus an almost >>>> empty fill-in trip around noon between St. Pancras & the Midlands.
The Manchester service became redundant once the WCML route was
electrified, and the units were transferred to join the other Pullman >>>> units on the Western Region.
The Western Pullman units (Bristol & Wolverhampton or Birmingham, I
think) were equally uneconomic - just one useful return trip to/from >>>> London Paddington, and lightly used fill-in trips around noon.
constructed?
Welcome to pre-privatisation, where the left and right hands of British
Rail barely even knew the other existed.
Does anyone remember Sir Brian Robertson (Chairman of British
Transport Commission), seen in one of the Blue Pullman videos? There
is a plaque to him at Glasgow Queen Street.
Never met him, but he was a retired general. Not sure how much , if any, personal knowledge he had about railways.
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 02/09/2026 18:04, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:The end cars of the HST stayed coupled to the middle section for long
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow,
rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper
Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much >>>>>> faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project >>>>> could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >>>> Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from >>>> an engineering perspective.
No, there wasn't. The Blue Pullman was an attempt to create a high quality >>> DMU. The HST was simply a new design of traditional loco haulage, the only >>> visual novelty being the use of two asymmetrical locos to top and tail the >>> train in order to remove any need for running round.
I suppose you could argue that the double-ended design is inspired by DMUs, >>> but it's as much inspired by a Derby Lightweight as by the Blue Pullman. >>>
To those unfamiliar with railways, the HST in action looks like a DMU. But >>> apart from the double-ended design it has nothing else in common with DMUs >>
periods, like DMUs but unlike most loco-hauled carriage stock.
Also, the HST coaches couldn?t be hauled by any other locos.
So there have been endless arguments about whether they?re DMUs or LHCS.
In message <a5%lS.4$_61.0@fx09.ams1>, at 19:49:26 on Wed, 2 Sep 2026, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 02/09/2026 18:04, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 09:24:19 +0200, Bob <nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/09/2026 16:00, Theo wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow,
rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium, despite not providing proper
Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon superseded by faster, more
comfortable, air-conditioned loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much
faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
They pioneered much of what came in the HST - perhaps why the HST project
could be spun up so rapidly.
Was there actually a meaningful design lineage from blue pullman to HST? >>>> Other than "it's a fixed formation diesel set for longer distance
routes", I'm not seeing a lot of similarity that would be relevant from >>>> an engineering perspective.
No, there wasn't. The Blue Pullman was an attempt to create a high quality
DMU. The HST was simply a new design of traditional loco haulage, the only
visual novelty being the use of two asymmetrical locos to top and tail the
train in order to remove any need for running round.
I suppose you could argue that the double-ended design is inspired by DMUs,
but it's as much inspired by a Derby Lightweight as by the Blue Pullman. >>>
To those unfamiliar with railways, the HST in action looks like a DMU. But
apart from the double-ended design it has nothing else in common with DMUs
The end cars of the HST stayed coupled to the middle section for long
periods, like DMUs but unlike most loco-hauled carriage stock.
Also, the HST coaches couldn?t be hauled by any other locos.
So there have been endless arguments about whether they?re DMUs or LHCS.
I've always thought of DMUs (and EMUs) as rolling stock where you couple
two or more together to make a longer train. For example EMT used to
couple three dogboxes together from time to time on routes via Grantham,
to create a three-car train.
Not sure you can couple two HSTs nose-to nose, and then run it in
service, driven entirely from the front cab.
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more like a
1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
Coming back to the Blue Pullmans:
They were a very small, non-standard fleet, that was under-powered, slow, rough-riding and had a Pullman fare premium,
despite not providing proper Pullman 1+1 seating. They were soon
superseded by faster, more comfortable, air-conditioned
loco-hauled Mk2 carriages, and then by much faster, more comfortable, quieter HSTs.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more like a 1950s delivery van. The HST looked so much
better.
I never thought that before but now you have mentioned it , the early
1950?s Morris Commercial with its split screen could be the candidate. <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Morris_Commercial_JB_1957.jpg#/media/File:Morris_Commercial_JB_1957.jpg>
When I first saw one at a young age it was quite impressive with the
Pullman Coat of Arms on the noses and the Nanking blue standing out against the other stock around. At the time it also stood out for being a Diesel on what was still largely a Steam powered railway.
The later livery change to reversed BR Blue -Grey and the Yellow ends
really ruined the look.
Not sure you can couple two HSTs nose-to nose, and then run it in
service, driven entirely from the front cab.
And what about the very
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pullmans#Formation
In message <1788427253-2991@newsgrouper.org>, at 09:20:53 on Thu, 3 Sep >2026, Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> remarked:
Not sure you can couple two HSTs nose-to nose, and then run it in
service, driven entirely from the front cab.
And what about the very >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pullmans#Formation
You tell me. Could two of those coupled nose-to-nose.
AFAIR past descriptions seemed to match your coupling two of the same
class together and being able to control from the front cab to count
as an xMU.
Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote:Generative AI didn't quite understand the mission ...
It's funny, I think they were rather ugly, with a front-end more like a
1950s delivery van.
<https://www.bing.com/images/create/ai-image-generator/blue-pullman-train-pulled-by-a-scammell-sarab/1-6a998a4bf3654f80ba6ff33499e15045>
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