• Re: South Eastern decides on Networker replacements

    From Ulf Kutzner@3:633/10 to All on Friday, August 28, 2026 15:26:49

    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> posted:

    Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    Low floor does suggest Stadler. I'm curious about the battery aspect... how can having a battery reduce electricity costs? Unless they're planning
    on charging up the battery on off-peak electricity... but I don't think they'll running on battery 4-7pm.

    There were some noises at using battery to allow de-electrifying a certain
    tunnel (Sevenoaks, was it?) to save money on renewals costs. I wonder if that idea has gone anywhere?

    Perhaps they just mean more efficient motors and control electronics.

    I suppose they might be able to regen when the third rail is not able to accept that power? I think currently regen happens if there's another train in the section, otherwise power is dumped into resistor banks at the substations (ie the train always regens, even if the power is ultimately wasted).

    They could add batteries to the substations...

    Regards, ULF

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Marland@3:633/10 to All on Friday, August 28, 2026 16:44:04
    Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> posted:

    Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    Low floor does suggest Stadler. I'm curious about the battery aspect... >>>> how can having a battery reduce electricity costs? Unless they're planning
    on charging up the battery on off-peak electricity... but I don't think >>>> they'll running on battery 4-7pm.

    There were some noises at using battery to allow de-electrifying a certain >>>> tunnel (Sevenoaks, was it?) to save money on renewals costs. I wonder if >>>> that idea has gone anywhere?

    Perhaps they just mean more efficient motors and control electronics.

    I suppose they might be able to regen when the third rail is not able to
    accept that power? I think currently regen happens if there's another train >> in the section, otherwise power is dumped into resistor banks at the
    substations (ie the train always regens, even if the power is ultimately
    wasted).

    They could add batteries to the substations...

    Regards, ULF


    It is interesting to see that modern electronics are allowing to some
    extent a return to practices once common in the embryonic electric supply industry around the the turn of the 19th-20th Century when most early generators supplied DC as their main load initially was for trams ,quite a
    few of those
    early power stations had a bank of batteries so they didn?t need to keep
    steam engines going at times of little demand or they could bring in the batteries to help if it was high.
    Electric Railways certainly in he UK were quite rare but one early scheme
    that also utilised
    such a battery was the Mersey Railway which I believe survived into BR
    days.
    AC distribution of relatively cheap power along grids of
    interconnected generators soon made those early DC stations obsolete but
    now power is not so cheaply generated batteries are coming back as it is
    now possible to integrate them in to AC networks with the equipment now available, even in a domestic setting some people are investing in a house battery that be charged cheaply off peak and power sold back when there is high demand.

    GH


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Anna Noyd-Dryver@3:633/10 to All on Friday, August 28, 2026 18:10:01
    Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:


    Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens and Stadler were shortlisted by the operator
    in May 2024.



    Would there be any viable alternatives to these five?

    Three of them are comparatively recent entries to the UK market so I guess another new entrant is not beyond the realms of possibility.

    In that theoretical situation, who else might?

    I'm surprised that Tokyu and Hyundai-Rotem didn't move across from the
    Irish market to UK; perhaps also Pesa, Newag, Skoda?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Recliner@3:633/10 to All on Friday, August 28, 2026 21:19:28
    Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
    Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:


    Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens and Stadler were shortlisted by the operator >> in May 2024.



    Would there be any viable alternatives to these five?

    Three of them are comparatively recent entries to the UK market so I guess another new entrant is not beyond the realms of possibility.

    In that theoretical situation, who else might?

    https://www.talgo.com/en/suburban-and-regionals


    I'm surprised that Tokyu and Hyundai-Rotem didn't move across from the
    Irish market to UK; perhaps also Pesa, Newag, Skoda?


    I wonder if post-Brexit procurement rules permit a public sector buyer to favour manufacturers with local manufacturing, or at least final assembly? That would favour Alstom (with actual UK manufacturing), over CAF, Hitachi
    and Siemens (final assembly) over Stadler (no UK factory).

    SE already has trains from Alstom, Hitachi and Siemens, which may or may
    not be a factor.

    In terms of low floor, Stadler is the only short-listed manufacturer with trains in service in the UK. But I think they all have such trains in
    service elsewhere. Now that NR no longer blacklists Jacob?s bogies, they?re
    not hard to design.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bevan Price@3:633/10 to All on Friday, August 28, 2026 23:05:44
    On 28/08/2026 17:44, Marland wrote:
    Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> posted:

    Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    Low floor does suggest Stadler. I'm curious about the battery aspect... >>>>> how can having a battery reduce electricity costs? Unless they're planning
    on charging up the battery on off-peak electricity... but I don't think >>>>> they'll running on battery 4-7pm.

    There were some noises at using battery to allow de-electrifying a certain
    tunnel (Sevenoaks, was it?) to save money on renewals costs. I wonder if >>>>> that idea has gone anywhere?

    Perhaps they just mean more efficient motors and control electronics.

    I suppose they might be able to regen when the third rail is not able to >>> accept that power? I think currently regen happens if there's another train
    in the section, otherwise power is dumped into resistor banks at the
    substations (ie the train always regens, even if the power is ultimately >>> wasted).

    They could add batteries to the substations...

    Regards, ULF


    It is interesting to see that modern electronics are allowing to some
    extent a return to practices once common in the embryonic electric supply industry around the the turn of the 19th-20th Century when most early generators supplied DC as their main load initially was for trams ,quite a few of those
    early power stations had a bank of batteries so they didn?t need to keep steam engines going at times of little demand or they could bring in the batteries to help if it was high.
    Electric Railways certainly in he UK were quite rare but one early scheme that also utilised
    such a battery was the Mersey Railway which I believe survived into BR
    days.
    AC distribution of relatively cheap power along grids of
    interconnected generators soon made those early DC stations obsolete but now power is not so cheaply generated batteries are coming back as it is
    now possible to integrate them in to AC networks with the equipment now available, even in a domestic setting some people are investing in a house battery that be charged cheaply off peak and power sold back when there is high demand.

    GH


    Staff safety might improve if they used battery power to replace 3rd
    rail inside depots.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From hounslow3@3:633/10 to All on Monday, August 31, 2026 18:41:54
    On 28/08/2026 19:10, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
    Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:


    Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens and Stadler were shortlisted by the operator >> in May 2024.



    Would there be any viable alternatives to these five?

    Three of them are comparatively recent entries to the UK market so I guess another new entrant is not beyond the realms of possibility.

    In that theoretical situation, who else might?

    I'm surprised that Tokyu and Hyundai-Rotem didn't move across from the
    Irish market to UK; perhaps also Pesa, Newag, Skoda?

    What about the Chinese?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan Lee@3:633/10 to All on Monday, August 31, 2026 19:09:08
    On 28/08/2026 22:19, Recliner wrote:
    I wonder if post-Brexit procurement rules permit a public sector buyer to favour manufacturers with local manufacturing, or at least final assembly? That would favour Alstom (with actual UK manufacturing), over CAF, Hitachi and Siemens (final assembly) over Stadler (no UK factory).

    How things are in the World currently, we should automatically prefer
    Alstom, as they make the highest percentage of their trains here in the UK.
    Of course, there are lots of imported parts, but paying for a 60% (for example) British built train is better for the Country than paying for
    trains that are only assembled here from parts that are 90%+ imported.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Recliner@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, September 01, 2026 13:40:47
    On Fri, 28 Aug 2026 18:10:01 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

    Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:


    Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens and Stadler were shortlisted by the operator >> in May 2024.



    Would there be any viable alternatives to these five?


    I see ScotRail is also considering the same short list for a similar order for local and regional trains. It would make
    sense if the two cooperated, but I suspect they will deliberately choose different suppliers.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)