• Re: No bailout for TPE

    From Roland Perry@3:633/10 to All on Monday, June 01, 2026 18:32:17
    In message <10vbdq5$3vq2n$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:04:37 on Fri, 29 May
    2026, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> remarked:
    On 28/05/2026 22:38, Recliner wrote:
    e blamed this on ?the ongoing war in the Middle East?, saying it meant TPE >> was facing a diesel bill ?which is likely to be between œ10-œ15m above our >> planned budget?.

    This is nearly three quarters higher than last year?s fuel bill,
    which was œ20.3m according to Office of Rail and Road (ORR) figures.

    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for
    two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last
    year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last >year?

    Because they have to buy at wholesale prices, which are quite different
    to retail prices. cf Hospitality venues having to pay typically twice
    the price for their energy as domestic customers.

    I had to pay œ1.50/litre for *red* diesel (that's about 50% more than
    the current street price) to top up my hire boat last week. If I'd been
    a bit wider awake I might have tried a boatyard other than the one we
    hired from, first.

    Back in the day, they never charged for fuel, it was thrown in (with the
    tank holding enough for about three weeks' cruising). And you didn't
    need pumpouts (now around œ25 each from a boatyard, because the Canal
    and River Trust have withdrawn from the market) because the sewage went straight into the canal.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tweed@3:633/10 to All on Monday, June 01, 2026 17:58:45
    Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
    In message <10vbdq5$3vq2n$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:04:37 on Fri, 29 May
    2026, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> remarked:
    On 28/05/2026 22:38, Recliner wrote:
    e blamed this on ?the ongoing war in the Middle East?, saying it meant TPE >>> was facing a diesel bill ?which is likely to be between œ10-œ15m above our >>> planned budget?.

    This is nearly three quarters higher than last year?s fuel bill,
    which was œ20.3m according to Office of Rail and Road (ORR) figures.

    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for
    two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last
    year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last
    year?

    Because they have to buy at wholesale prices, which are quite different
    to retail prices. cf Hospitality venues having to pay typically twice
    the price for their energy as domestic customers.

    I had to pay œ1.50/litre for *red* diesel (that's about 50% more than
    the current street price) to top up my hire boat last week. If I'd been
    a bit wider awake I might have tried a boatyard other than the one we
    hired from, first.

    Back in the day, they never charged for fuel, it was thrown in (with the tank holding enough for about three weeks' cruising). And you didn't
    need pumpouts (now around œ25 each from a boatyard, because the Canal
    and River Trust have withdrawn from the market) because the sewage went straight into the canal.

    I?ve just looked up the tariff for an address that serves a nearby pub. The unit prices for gas and electricity offered by Octopus are very similar to their domestic prices. The daily standing charge is about 30% more. Nothing like twice the price.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott@3:633/10 to All on Monday, June 01, 2026 19:50:56
    On Fri, 29 May 2026 09:01:26 +0100, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 29 May 2026 08:04:37 +0100, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
    wrote:

    On 28/05/2026 22:38, Recliner wrote:
    e blamed this on ?the ongoing war in the Middle East?, saying it meant TPE >>> was facing a diesel bill ?which is likely to be between ?10-?15m above our >>> planned budget?.

    This is nearly three quarters higher than last year?s fuel bill, which was >>> ?20.3m according to Office of Rail and Road (ORR) figures.

    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for
    two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last
    year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last >>year?

    I assume TOCS and FOCs attempt to hedge prices and are currently
    unable to secure supplies at anything like the prices they have been
    used to paying until recently. It's not like their class 185s pull
    into a loop, fill up with 10000l of diesel then go to the pay desk to
    settle up according to the price on the pump.

    Is a public sector body allowed to 'hedge' or is there some Treasury
    rule to prevent what arguably amounts to a form of gambling?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Certes@3:633/10 to All on Monday, June 01, 2026 20:25:59
    On 01/06/2026 19:50, Scott wrote:
    On Fri, 29 May 2026 09:01:26 +0100, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 29 May 2026 08:04:37 +0100, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
    wrote:

    On 28/05/2026 22:38, Recliner wrote:
    e blamed this on ?the ongoing war in the Middle East?, saying it meant TPE >>>> was facing a diesel bill ?which is likely to be between œ10-œ15m above our >>>> planned budget?.

    This is nearly three quarters higher than last year?s fuel bill, which was >>>> œ20.3m according to Office of Rail and Road (ORR) figures.

    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for
    two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last
    year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last
    year?

    I assume TOCS and FOCs attempt to hedge prices and are currently
    unable to secure supplies at anything like the prices they have been
    used to paying until recently. It's not like their class 185s pull
    into a loop, fill up with 10000l of diesel then go to the pay desk to
    settle up according to the price on the pump.

    Is a public sector body allowed to 'hedge' or is there some Treasury
    rule to prevent what arguably amounts to a form of gambling?

    True hedging is reducing risk by insuring against future price changes.
    If I know I'll need X litres of diesel next week, then it's the strategy
    of doing nothing and being forced to buy it next week at an unknown spot
    price that's the gamble.

    Unfortunately "hedging" has become a euphemism for what hedge funds do,
    which often really is gambling.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Recliner@3:633/10 to All on Monday, June 01, 2026 19:35:27
    Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
    On Fri, 29 May 2026 09:01:26 +0100, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 29 May 2026 08:04:37 +0100, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
    wrote:

    On 28/05/2026 22:38, Recliner wrote:
    e blamed this on ?the ongoing war in the Middle East?, saying it meant TPE >>>> was facing a diesel bill ?which is likely to be between œ10-œ15m above our >>>> planned budget?.

    This is nearly three quarters higher than last year?s fuel bill, which was >>>> œ20.3m according to Office of Rail and Road (ORR) figures.

    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for
    two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last
    year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last >>> year?

    I assume TOCS and FOCs attempt to hedge prices and are currently
    unable to secure supplies at anything like the prices they have been
    used to paying until recently. It's not like their class 185s pull
    into a loop, fill up with 10000l of diesel then go to the pay desk to
    settle up according to the price on the pump.

    Is a public sector body allowed to 'hedge' or is there some Treasury
    rule to prevent what arguably amounts to a form of gambling?

    Apparently Northern had hedged its diesel, and so isn?t affected like TPE. Perhaps TPE was also hedged, but it ran out earlier?


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Roland Perry@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, June 02, 2026 06:33:38
    In message <10vkh8l$2da54$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:58:45 on Mon, 1 Jun
    2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for
    two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last
    year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last
    year?

    Because they have to buy at wholesale prices, which are quite different
    to retail prices. cf Hospitality venues having to pay typically twice
    the price for their energy as domestic customers.

    I had to pay œ1.50/litre for *red* diesel (that's about 50% more than
    the current street price) to top up my hire boat last week. If I'd been
    a bit wider awake I might have tried a boatyard other than the one we
    hired from, first.

    Back in the day, they never charged for fuel, it was thrown in (with the
    tank holding enough for about three weeks' cruising). And you didn't
    need pumpouts (now around œ25 each from a boatyard, because the Canal
    and River Trust have withdrawn from the market) because the sewage went
    straight into the canal.

    I?ve just looked up the tariff for an address that serves a nearby pub. The >unit prices for gas and electricity offered by Octopus are very similar to >their domestic prices. The daily standing charge is about 30% more. Nothing >like twice the price.

    Then there must a whole load of very stupid pubs and fish-and-chip shops paying far more. Or maybe the suppliers decline to do business with them
    at the cheaper rates.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tweed@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, June 02, 2026 06:11:08
    Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
    In message <10vkh8l$2da54$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:58:45 on Mon, 1 Jun
    2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for
    two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last
    year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last >>>> year?

    Because they have to buy at wholesale prices, which are quite different
    to retail prices. cf Hospitality venues having to pay typically twice
    the price for their energy as domestic customers.

    I had to pay œ1.50/litre for *red* diesel (that's about 50% more than
    the current street price) to top up my hire boat last week. If I'd been
    a bit wider awake I might have tried a boatyard other than the one we
    hired from, first.

    Back in the day, they never charged for fuel, it was thrown in (with the >>> tank holding enough for about three weeks' cruising). And you didn't
    need pumpouts (now around œ25 each from a boatyard, because the Canal
    and River Trust have withdrawn from the market) because the sewage went
    straight into the canal.

    I?ve just looked up the tariff for an address that serves a nearby pub. The >> unit prices for gas and electricity offered by Octopus are very similar to >> their domestic prices. The daily standing charge is about 30% more. Nothing >> like twice the price.

    Then there must a whole load of very stupid pubs and fish-and-chip shops paying far more. Or maybe the suppliers decline to do business with them
    at the cheaper rates.

    I think the big difference is that these businesses use far more energy
    than the average domestic user. As such, in the days of cheaper energy I suspect they were offered cheaper terms than domestic users as the various suppliers sought to increase market share. Now they are at parity, so that appears to be a huge increase to the business.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tweed@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, June 02, 2026 07:44:19
    Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
    In message <10vbdq5$3vq2n$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:04:37 on Fri, 29 May
    2026, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> remarked:
    On 28/05/2026 22:38, Recliner wrote:
    e blamed this on ?the ongoing war in the Middle East?, saying it meant TPE >>> was facing a diesel bill ?which is likely to be between œ10-œ15m above our >>> planned budget?.

    This is nearly three quarters higher than last year?s fuel bill,
    which was œ20.3m according to Office of Rail and Road (ORR) figures.

    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for
    two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last
    year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last
    year?

    Because they have to buy at wholesale prices, which are quite different
    to retail prices. cf Hospitality venues having to pay typically twice
    the price for their energy as domestic customers.

    I had to pay œ1.50/litre for *red* diesel (that's about 50% more than
    the current street price) to top up my hire boat last week. If I'd been
    a bit wider awake I might have tried a boatyard other than the one we
    hired from, first.

    The rules on fuel for canal boats (amongst others) has changed. Propulsion
    use is subject to full non red diesel tax, heating can use the red rate.
    The rule of thumb that HMRC appear to accept for hire boats is to charge
    40% at red rates and 60% at the full rate. So your œ1.50/litre is about
    right.

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying-excise-notice-554

    2.1 Duty treatment of fuel used in private pleasure craft

    Diesel used for propelling private pleasure craft can no longer benefit
    from a reduced rate of duty. It?s subject to duty at the full rate.

    In Great Britain, a private pleasure craft may continue to use rebated
    (red) diesel, including rebated sulphur-free diesel and rebated bioblend (a
    mix of diesel and biodiesel). However, an amount equal to the rebate must
    be paid on the fuel used for propelling the boat.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Roland Perry@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, June 02, 2026 08:44:12
    In message <10vls5s$2o3j7$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:11:08 on Tue, 2 Jun
    2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
    Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
    In message <10vkh8l$2da54$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:58:45 on Mon, 1 Jun
    2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for >>>>> two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last
    year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last >>>>> year?

    Because they have to buy at wholesale prices, which are quite different >>>> to retail prices. cf Hospitality venues having to pay typically twice
    the price for their energy as domestic customers.

    I had to pay œ1.50/litre for *red* diesel (that's about 50% more than
    the current street price) to top up my hire boat last week. If I'd been >>>> a bit wider awake I might have tried a boatyard other than the one we
    hired from, first.

    Back in the day, they never charged for fuel, it was thrown in (with the >>>> tank holding enough for about three weeks' cruising). And you didn't
    need pumpouts (now around œ25 each from a boatyard, because the Canal
    and River Trust have withdrawn from the market) because the sewage went >>>> straight into the canal.

    I?ve just looked up the tariff for an address that serves a nearby
    pub. The unit prices for gas and electricity offered by Octopus are >>>very similar to their domestic prices. The daily standing charge is >>>about 30% more. Nothing like twice the price.

    Then there must a whole load of very stupid pubs and fish-and-chip shops
    paying far more. Or maybe the suppliers decline to do business with them
    at the cheaper rates.

    I think the big difference is that these businesses use far more energy
    than the average domestic user. As such, in the days of cheaper energy I >suspect they were offered cheaper terms than domestic users as the various >suppliers sought to increase market share. Now they are at parity, so that >appears to be a huge increase to the business.

    I've just been talking to a wholesale energy price comparison site, and
    they say business electricity is 27-28p per kWh, and rose by 170% (due
    to the Ukraine war). Octopus business electricity (I just got an online
    quote) is 35p daytime, 29p nightime. Their domestic rates can be as low
    as 6p (overnight EV) although I'm paying 24p flat rate.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tweed@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, June 02, 2026 08:19:08
    Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
    In message <10vls5s$2o3j7$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:11:08 on Tue, 2 Jun
    2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
    Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
    In message <10vkh8l$2da54$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:58:45 on Mon, 1 Jun
    2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
    Well, someone is talking bollocks. The fuel went up by around 30% for >>>>>> two months, but has now gone down to a 10-15% rise compared to last >>>>>> year, so how do they suddenly get to be paying 50 to 75% more than last >>>>>> year?

    Because they have to buy at wholesale prices, which are quite different >>>>> to retail prices. cf Hospitality venues having to pay typically twice >>>>> the price for their energy as domestic customers.

    I had to pay œ1.50/litre for *red* diesel (that's about 50% more than >>>>> the current street price) to top up my hire boat last week. If I'd been >>>>> a bit wider awake I might have tried a boatyard other than the one we >>>>> hired from, first.

    Back in the day, they never charged for fuel, it was thrown in (with the >>>>> tank holding enough for about three weeks' cruising). And you didn't >>>>> need pumpouts (now around œ25 each from a boatyard, because the Canal >>>>> and River Trust have withdrawn from the market) because the sewage went >>>>> straight into the canal.

    I?ve just looked up the tariff for an address that serves a nearby
    pub. The unit prices for gas and electricity offered by Octopus are
    very similar to their domestic prices. The daily standing charge is
    about 30% more. Nothing like twice the price.

    Then there must a whole load of very stupid pubs and fish-and-chip shops >>> paying far more. Or maybe the suppliers decline to do business with them >>> at the cheaper rates.

    I think the big difference is that these businesses use far more energy
    than the average domestic user. As such, in the days of cheaper energy I
    suspect they were offered cheaper terms than domestic users as the various >> suppliers sought to increase market share. Now they are at parity, so that >> appears to be a huge increase to the business.

    I've just been talking to a wholesale energy price comparison site, and
    they say business electricity is 27-28p per kWh, and rose by 170% (due
    to the Ukraine war). Octopus business electricity (I just got an online quote) is 35p daytime, 29p nightime. Their domestic rates can be as low
    as 6p (overnight EV) although I'm paying 24p flat rate.

    I got 29p daytime business electricity for the quote I looked at. I suppose there are regional differences.

    Octopus have increased their domestic EV rates. Now 8p/kWhr for around 5
    hours and 32p the rest of the time, with a 51p/standing charge. Their
    economy 7 rate is something they keep quiet about. 10p for the night 7
    hours, 27p day rate 47p standing charge. With minor variations depending on where you live. 97% of my use is on the night rate because we have a
    storage battery.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)