Sitting at london bridge today I saw and heard a couple of 465s leaving
the platforms which were make distinctly old school 1990s gear changing sounds as they accelerated. I though these 2 classes had all been upgraded to newer traction drives? I can't imagine its worth doing any left over given they probably only have 10 years of service life left.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 29/04/2026 17:03, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

Sitting at london bridge today I saw and heard a couple of 465s leaving
the platforms which were make distinctly old school 1990s gear changing sounds
as they accelerated. I though these 2 classes had all been upgraded to newer traction drives? I can't imagine its worth doing any left over given they probably only have 10 years of service life left.

There were two fleets of class 465: one built by BREL/ABB and the other
by Metro-Cammell (all the 466 are MetCam). The BREL/ABB fleet had
reliability issues with their traction equipment so had it replaced by
Hitachi equipment in 2009/2010. The MetCam units retain their as-built traction equipment. The obvious visual distintion is that the units with
the new traction equipment had the skirting between the bogies on the
DMBSO cars removed when the traction equipment was replaced, while the unmodified units retain the skirting. There are also lots of detail differences (BREL/ABB units have ventilation ducts and over-seat vents,
they have shallower but wider opening window hoppers).

Robin

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 08:37:22 +0200
Bob <nospam@gmail.com> gabbled:

On 29/04/2026 17:03, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

Sitting at london bridge today I saw and heard a couple of 465s leaving
the platforms which were make distinctly old school 1990s gear changing >sounds
as they accelerated. I though these 2 classes had all been upgraded to newer >> traction drives? I can't imagine its worth doing any left over given they
probably only have 10 years of service life left.

There were two fleets of class 465: one built by BREL/ABB and the other
by Metro-Cammell (all the 466 are MetCam). The BREL/ABB fleet had >reliability issues with their traction equipment so had it replaced by >Hitachi equipment in 2009/2010. The MetCam units retain their as-built

Interestingly the 92 stock on the Central Line was also built by BREL around the same time and also had to have its traction systems replaced. Not sure
what that says about BREL build quality.



--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 08:28:09 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 08:37:22 +0200
Bob <nospam@gmail.com> gabbled:

On 29/04/2026 17:03, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

Sitting at london bridge today I saw and heard a couple of 465s leaving
the platforms which were make distinctly old school 1990s gear changing >>sounds
as they accelerated. I though these 2 classes had all been upgraded to newer
traction drives? I can't imagine its worth doing any left over given they >>> probably only have 10 years of service life left.

There were two fleets of class 465: one built by BREL/ABB and the other
by Metro-Cammell (all the 466 are MetCam). The BREL/ABB fleet had >>reliability issues with their traction equipment so had it replaced by >>Hitachi equipment in 2009/2010. The MetCam units retain their as-built

Interestingly the 92 stock on the Central Line was also built by BREL around >the same time and also had to have its traction systems replaced. Not sure >what that says about BREL build quality.

Not inevitably BREL rather than the suppliers of the defective
components. The original motors were supplied by ABB/Brush with their
original fixing bolts maybe obtained from a barrow at the Cut.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 20:22:55 +0100
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> gabbled:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 08:28:09 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 08:37:22 +0200
Bob <nospam@gmail.com> gabbled:

On 29/04/2026 17:03, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

Sitting at london bridge today I saw and heard a couple of 465s leaving >>>> the platforms which were make distinctly old school 1990s gear changing >>>sounds
as they accelerated. I though these 2 classes had all been upgraded to >newer
traction drives? I can't imagine its worth doing any left over given they >>>> probably only have 10 years of service life left.

There were two fleets of class 465: one built by BREL/ABB and the other >>>by Metro-Cammell (all the 466 are MetCam). The BREL/ABB fleet had >>>reliability issues with their traction equipment so had it replaced by >>>Hitachi equipment in 2009/2010. The MetCam units retain their as-built

Interestingly the 92 stock on the Central Line was also built by BREL around >>the same time and also had to have its traction systems replaced. Not sure >>what that says about BREL build quality.

Not inevitably BREL rather than the suppliers of the defective
components. The original motors were supplied by ABB/Brush with their >original fixing bolts maybe obtained from a barrow at the Cut.

I would have assumed for the basic electronic components both BREL and MC would have obtained them from the same manufacturers. There can't be that
many who made train spec ones back then? I suppose now there are probably
a couple of dozen chinese ones who sell them.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 1 May 2026 09:32:49 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 20:22:55 +0100
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> gabbled:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 08:28:09 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 08:37:22 +0200
Bob <nospam@gmail.com> gabbled:

On 29/04/2026 17:03, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

Sitting at london bridge today I saw and heard a couple of 465s leaving >>>>> the platforms which were make distinctly old school 1990s gear changing >>>>sounds
as they accelerated. I though these 2 classes had all been upgraded to >>newer
traction drives? I can't imagine its worth doing any left over given they >>>>> probably only have 10 years of service life left.

There were two fleets of class 465: one built by BREL/ABB and the other >>>>by Metro-Cammell (all the 466 are MetCam). The BREL/ABB fleet had >>>>reliability issues with their traction equipment so had it replaced by >>>>Hitachi equipment in 2009/2010. The MetCam units retain their as-built

Interestingly the 92 stock on the Central Line was also built by BREL around >>>the same time and also had to have its traction systems replaced. Not sure >>>what that says about BREL build quality.

Not inevitably BREL rather than the suppliers of the defective
components. The original motors were supplied by ABB/Brush with their >>original fixing bolts maybe obtained from a barrow at the Cut.

I would have assumed for the basic electronic components both BREL and MC >would have obtained them from the same manufacturers. There can't be that >many who made train spec ones back then?

One problem (which might apply in this case) is that electronics
obtained from company A can go off stock and you can't simply go to
company B for the same if company A won't licence their production.

I suppose now there are probably a couple of dozen chinese ones who sell them.

Probably several willing to make carbon copies and of at least equal
quality but not without infringing patents etc. If there are faults
with particular components in your black box then it might be easier
just to obtain a complete new black box that does the same with
different newer components. That could be Chinese or closer to home.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 03 May 2026 00:17:29 +0100, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

On Fri, 1 May 2026 09:32:49 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 20:22:55 +0100
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> gabbled:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 08:28:09 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 08:37:22 +0200
Bob <nospam@gmail.com> gabbled:

On 29/04/2026 17:03, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

Sitting at london bridge today I saw and heard a couple of 465s leaving >>>>>> the platforms which were make distinctly old school 1990s gear changing >>>>>sounds
as they accelerated. I though these 2 classes had all been upgraded to >>>newer
traction drives? I can't imagine its worth doing any left over given they
probably only have 10 years of service life left.

There were two fleets of class 465: one built by BREL/ABB and the other >>>>>by Metro-Cammell (all the 466 are MetCam). The BREL/ABB fleet had >>>>>reliability issues with their traction equipment so had it replaced by >>>>>Hitachi equipment in 2009/2010. The MetCam units retain their as-built >>>>

Interestingly the 92 stock on the Central Line was also built by BREL around
the same time and also had to have its traction systems replaced. Not sure >>>>what that says about BREL build quality.

Not inevitably BREL rather than the suppliers of the defective >>>components. The original motors were supplied by ABB/Brush with their >>>original fixing bolts maybe obtained from a barrow at the Cut.

I would have assumed for the basic electronic components both BREL and MC >>would have obtained them from the same manufacturers. There can't be that >>many who made train spec ones back then?

One problem (which might apply in this case) is that electronics
obtained from company A can go off stock and you can't simply go to
company B for the same if company A won't licence their production.

I suppose now there are probably a couple of dozen chinese ones who sell them.

Probably several willing to make carbon copies and of at least equal
quality but not without infringing patents etc. If there are faults
with particular components in your black box then it might be easier
just to obtain a complete new black box that does the same with
different newer components. That could be Chinese or closer to home.

Out of interest (because I don't know) is there any action that can be
taken against the owner (rolling stock company) for infringement of
patent?

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)