On 17/04/2026 13:05, Alan Lee wrote:

On 17/04/2026 11:18, Trolleybus wrote:

The signal was approach-controlled, yes, but he (or she) had opened up
again once the signal cleared thinking he was being routed to the
relatively fast flyover.

That's the 4th time similar incidents have happened on the Southern
ECML. Twice it happened at Peterborough, and the RSSB(?) did not
recommend any improvement, yet NR did change one of the route indicating signals, as it was clear the signalling was being interpreted
differently by the Driver from what the Signaller intended.

Would it help if the signal released to a caution (single yellow) aspect instead of clearing to green? Or would there still be a risk of accelerating too quickly at first, followed by travelling unnecessarily slowly to the
next signal?

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 21 Apr 2026 23:03:04 +0100, Roger <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2026 13:05, Alan Lee wrote:

On 17/04/2026 11:18, Trolleybus wrote:

The signal was approach-controlled, yes, but he (or she) had opened up
again once the signal cleared thinking he was being routed to the
relatively fast flyover.

That's the 4th time similar incidents have happened on the Southern
ECML. Twice it happened at Peterborough, and the RSSB(?) did not
recommend any improvement, yet NR did change one of the route indicating
signals, as it was clear the signalling was being interpreted
differently by the Driver from what the Signaller intended.

Would it help if the signal released to a caution (single yellow) aspect >instead of clearing to green? Or would there still be a risk of accelerating >too quickly at first, followed by travelling unnecessarily slowly to the
next signal?

Alan Williams wrote about this in the March issue of MR:
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/green-does-not-always-mean-go

Yes, there's a paywall. So here's a short excerpt of his conclusion:

Five overspeeding incidents in little more than three years, with three of them in the recent last year, in all but one
of which passengers were injured and in one the train was reported to be near tipping over, requires urgent public
explanation.

It seems clear that in all five cases the drivers missed the junction indicators and were thus misled into believing
that their train was signalled to continue along the main line by a green ?continue at line speed? indication and drove
accordingly. The only real question is why?

For me, the answer is clear. Presenting a driver with a green aspect when the route is set through a 25mph crossover on
an otherwise much higher speed line -in the first four cases between 115 and 125mph, and even at Hitchin 75mph -is plain
daft and asking for trouble. Either maintain just a simple yellow aspect with accompanying AWS warning, or if some
indication of the state of the line further ahead is required, stepping up to double yellow on close approach if
appropriate, again importantly with an AWS warning. But on no account green. Or, of course, provide two separate
indications as of yore. But that would now be much more difficult and expensive.

Green is the colour associated in almost every mind in the world, whether driving on rail or road, to mean ?go? without
qualification.

The five incidents so far have involved drivers from Lumo, Grand Central, LNER and now Great Northern. RAIB has rather
implied that the fault lay principally with the drivers. But what if it is not? What if exhibiting the same green aspect
to a driver, irrespective of whether entirely safe for 100mph running or certainly not for more than 25mph, is at least
a contributory cause?

RAIB published a forward-facing CCTV image taken from the train involved in the Hitchin overspeed incident. It clearly
shows a green aspect being displayed on a signal mounted quite low down under the platform awning. Rather less obvious
is the horizontal Position 5 JI above it. It could be mistaken to be part of the station lighting. Fail to notice that
and you are in trouble, with just yards to go.

ACTION THIS DAY PLEASE

Are we really saying that driver training on four different train operating companies has suddenly become deficient in
the last three years? What is certain is that, with now three major overspeeding incidents on the same route in well
under a year, something more than a ?safety digest? is required. RAIB must swiftly re-examine these incidents, including
a review of aspects displayed at junctions and then publish a report as soon as possible. And then ORR must act.

The signalling at Hitchin and Peterborough is to be replaced with ETCS by the end of the decade but I can find no
implementation date for Grantham. But at the present rate, if no action is taken, there may well have been five more
overspeeding incidents by then. Five so far is already too many, clearly scary for passengers and at least one coming
far too close to a full-scale disaster. With more new, faster accelerating trains on an ever-busier ECML the outcome of
any future incident could be much worse. Is ORR prepared to accept that increasing probability? And is it just
coincidence that all five incidents have taken place on the southern part of the ECML when no others have been reported
anywhere else across the national network?

Meanwhile, if restriction to a single yellow is now deemed necessary at Spital, why is green still acceptable elsewhere?

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 24/04/2026 12:30, Recliner wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2026 23:03:04 +0100, Roger <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2026 13:05, Alan Lee wrote:

On 17/04/2026 11:18, Trolleybus wrote:

The signal was approach-controlled, yes, but he (or she) had opened up >>>> again once the signal cleared thinking he was being routed to the
relatively fast flyover.

That's the 4th time similar incidents have happened on the Southern
ECML. Twice it happened at Peterborough, and the RSSB(?) did not
recommend any improvement, yet NR did change one of the route indicating >>> signals, as it was clear the signalling was being interpreted
differently by the Driver from what the Signaller intended.

Would it help if the signal released to a caution (single yellow) aspect
instead of clearing to green? Or would there still be a risk of accelerating >> too quickly at first, followed by travelling unnecessarily slowly to the
next signal?

Alan Williams wrote about this in the March issue of MR:
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/green-does-not-always-mean-go

Yes, there's a paywall. So here's a short excerpt of his conclusion:

Five overspeeding incidents in little more than three years, with three of them in the recent last year, in all but one
of which passengers were injured and in one the train was reported to be near tipping over, requires urgent public
explanation.

It seems clear that in all five cases the drivers missed the junction indicators and were thus misled into believing
that their train was signalled to continue along the main line by a green ?continue at line speed? indication and drove
accordingly. The only real question is why?

<snip detailed analysis>

Meanwhile, if restriction to a single yellow is now deemed necessary at Spital, why is green still acceptable elsewhere?

I'd be interested to hear a driver's view on this. To this layman's
mind, green means go at line speed (and usually guarantees that the
next signal is not at danger). The problem is that line speed was
unexpectedly low because the driver was unclear which line the train
was routed onto. Surely what's needed is a clearer junction indicator, possibly nearer to the signal or even repeated in rear of it, so a
driver approaching the green is certain which line speed to travel at.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 24/04/2026 18:48, Certes wrote:

On 24/04/2026 12:30, Recliner wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2026 23:03:04 +0100, Roger <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2026 13:05, Alan Lee wrote:

On 17/04/2026 11:18, Trolleybus wrote:

The signal was approach-controlled, yes, but he (or she) had opened up >>>>> again once the signal cleared thinking he was being routed to the
relatively fast flyover.

That's the 4th time similar incidents have happened on the Southern
ECML. Twice it happened at Peterborough, and the RSSB(?) did not
recommend any improvement, yet NR did change one of the route
indicating
signals, as it was clear the signalling was being interpreted
differently by the Driver from what the Signaller intended.

Would it help if the signal released to a caution (single yellow) aspect >>> instead of clearing to green? Or would there still be a risk of
accelerating
too quickly at first, followed by travelling unnecessarily slowly to the >>> next signal?

Alan Williams wrote about this in the March issue of MR:
ÿ https://www.modernrailways.com/article/green-does-not-always-mean-go

Yes, there's a paywall. So here's a short excerpt of his conclusion:

Five overspeeding incidents in little more than three years, with
three of them in the recent last year, in all but one
of which passengers were injured and in one the train was reported to
be near tipping over, requires urgent public
explanation.

It seems clear that in all five cases the drivers missed the junction
indicators and were thus misled into believing
that their train was signalled to continue along the main line by a
green ?continue at line speed? indication and drove
accordingly. The only real question is why?

<snip detailed analysis>

Meanwhile, if restriction to a single yellow is now deemed necessary
at Spital, why is green still acceptable elsewhere?

I'd be interested to hear a driver's view on this.ÿ To this layman's
mind, green means go at line speed (and usually guarantees that the
next signal is not at danger).ÿ The problem is that line speed was unexpectedly low because the driver was unclear which line the train
was routed onto.ÿ Surely what's needed is a clearer junction indicator, possibly nearer to the signal or even repeated in rear of it, so a
driver approaching the green is certain which line speed to travel at.

At Weaver Junction on the West Coast Main Line, a flashing light is use
for northbound trains diverging onto the Liverpool line.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 24/04/2026 19:53, Bevan Price wrote:

On 24/04/2026 18:48, Certes wrote:

On 24/04/2026 12:30, Recliner wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2026 23:03:04 +0100, Roger <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2026 13:05, Alan Lee wrote:

On 17/04/2026 11:18, Trolleybus wrote:

The signal was approach-controlled, yes, but he (or she) had
opened up
again once the signal cleared thinking he was being routed to the
relatively fast flyover.

That's the 4th time similar incidents have happened on the Southern
ECML. Twice it happened at Peterborough, and the RSSB(?) did not
recommend any improvement, yet NR did change one of the route
indicating
signals, as it was clear the signalling was being interpreted
differently by the Driver from what the Signaller intended.

Would it help if the signal released to a caution (single yellow)
aspect
instead of clearing to green? Or would there still be a risk of
accelerating
too quickly at first, followed by travelling unnecessarily slowly to
the
next signal?

Alan Williams wrote about this in the March issue of MR:
ÿ https://www.modernrailways.com/article/green-does-not-always-mean-go

Yes, there's a paywall. So here's a short excerpt of his conclusion:

Five overspeeding incidents in little more than three years, with
three of them in the recent last year, in all but one
of which passengers were injured and in one the train was reported to
be near tipping over, requires urgent public
explanation.

It seems clear that in all five cases the drivers missed the junction
indicators and were thus misled into believing
that their train was signalled to continue along the main line by a
green ?continue at line speed? indication and drove
accordingly. The only real question is why?

<snip detailed analysis>

Meanwhile, if restriction to a single yellow is now deemed necessary
at Spital, why is green still acceptable elsewhere?

I'd be interested to hear a driver's view on this.ÿ To this layman's
mind, green means go at line speed (and usually guarantees that the
next signal is not at danger).ÿ The problem is that line speed was
unexpectedly low because the driver was unclear which line the train
was routed onto.ÿ Surely what's needed is a clearer junction indicator,
possibly nearer to the signal or even repeated in rear of it, so a
driver approaching the green is certain which line speed to travel at.

At Weaver Junction on the West Coast Main Line, a flashing light is use
for northbound trains diverging onto the Liverpool line.

Yes, I think flashing yellow (not green) would be a good solution here.
It's been used successfully in several similar situations elsewhere.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-04-25 09:24, Certes wrote:

On 24/04/2026 19:53, Bevan Price wrote:

On 24/04/2026 18:48, Certes wrote:

On 24/04/2026 12:30, Recliner wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2026 23:03:04 +0100, Roger <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote: >>>>

On 17/04/2026 13:05, Alan Lee wrote:

On 17/04/2026 11:18, Trolleybus wrote:

The signal was approach-controlled, yes, but he (or she) had
opened up
again once the signal cleared thinking he was being routed to the >>>>>>> relatively fast flyover.

That's the 4th time similar incidents have happened on the Southern >>>>>> ECML. Twice it happened at Peterborough, and the RSSB(?) did not
recommend any improvement, yet NR did change one of the route
indicating
signals, as it was clear the signalling was being interpreted
differently by the Driver from what the Signaller intended.

Would it help if the signal released to a caution (single yellow)
aspect
instead of clearing to green? Or would there still be a risk of
accelerating
too quickly at first, followed by travelling unnecessarily slowly
to the
next signal?

Alan Williams wrote about this in the March issue of MR:
ÿ https://www.modernrailways.com/article/green-does-not-always-mean-go >>>>
Yes, there's a paywall. So here's a short excerpt of his conclusion:

Five overspeeding incidents in little more than three years, with
three of them in the recent last year, in all but one
of which passengers were injured and in one the train was reported
to be near tipping over, requires urgent public
explanation.

It seems clear that in all five cases the drivers missed the
junction indicators and were thus misled into believing
that their train was signalled to continue along the main line by a
green ?continue at line speed? indication and drove
accordingly. The only real question is why?

<snip detailed analysis>

Meanwhile, if restriction to a single yellow is now deemed necessary
at Spital, why is green still acceptable elsewhere?

I'd be interested to hear a driver's view on this.ÿ To this layman's
mind, green means go at line speed (and usually guarantees that the
next signal is not at danger).ÿ The problem is that line speed was
unexpectedly low because the driver was unclear which line the train
was routed onto.ÿ Surely what's needed is a clearer junction indicator,
possibly nearer to the signal or even repeated in rear of it, so a
driver approaching the green is certain which line speed to travel at.

At Weaver Junction on the West Coast Main Line, a flashing light is
use for northbound trains diverging onto the Liverpool line.

Yes, I think flashing yellow (not green) would be a good solution here.
It's been used successfully in several similar situations elsewhere.

Same on WCML, eg just N of MKC: up fast gets a flashing yellow if it's
being diverted to the reversible route through platform 5.

nib

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 24/04/2026 12:30, Recliner wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2026 23:03:04 +0100, Roger <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2026 13:05, Alan Lee wrote:

On 17/04/2026 11:18, Trolleybus wrote:

The signal was approach-controlled, yes, but he (or she) had opened up >>>> again once the signal cleared thinking he was being routed to the
relatively fast flyover.

That's the 4th time similar incidents have happened on the Southern
ECML. Twice it happened at Peterborough, and the RSSB(?) did not
recommend any improvement, yet NR did change one of the route indicating >>> signals, as it was clear the signalling was being interpreted
differently by the Driver from what the Signaller intended.

Would it help if the signal released to a caution (single yellow) aspect >>instead of clearing to green? Or would there still be a risk of accelerating >>too quickly at first, followed by travelling unnecessarily slowly to the >>next signal?

Alan Williams wrote about this in the March issue of MR:
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/green-does-not-always-mean-go

Yes, there's a paywall. So here's a short excerpt of his conclusion:

Thanks. I buy MR when I see it, but the only shop I can reliably find it in
is high street WHSmiths, and ours is now a trendy banking hub.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 30/04/2026 21:15, Roger wrote:

On 24/04/2026 12:30, Recliner wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2026 23:03:04 +0100, Roger <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2026 13:05, Alan Lee wrote:

On 17/04/2026 11:18, Trolleybus wrote:

The signal was approach-controlled, yes, but he (or she) had opened up >>>>> again once the signal cleared thinking he was being routed to the
relatively fast flyover.

That's the 4th time similar incidents have happened on the Southern
ECML. Twice it happened at Peterborough, and the RSSB(?) did not
recommend any improvement, yet NR did change one of the route indicating >>>> signals, as it was clear the signalling was being interpreted
differently by the Driver from what the Signaller intended.

Would it help if the signal released to a caution (single yellow) aspect >>> instead of clearing to green? Or would there still be a risk of accelerating
too quickly at first, followed by travelling unnecessarily slowly to the >>> next signal?

Alan Williams wrote about this in the March issue of MR:
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/green-does-not-always-mean-go

Yes, there's a paywall. So here's a short excerpt of his conclusion:

Thanks. I buy MR when I see it, but the only shop I can reliably find it in is high street WHSmiths, and ours is now a trendy banking hub.

Next month it will be a trendy wine bar.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

In message <gspccm-96l.ln1@castle-combe.rilynn.me.uk>, at 21:15:44 on
Thu, 30 Apr 2026, Roger <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> remarked:

On 24/04/2026 12:30, Recliner wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2026 23:03:04 +0100, Roger <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2026 13:05, Alan Lee wrote:

On 17/04/2026 11:18, Trolleybus wrote:

The signal was approach-controlled, yes, but he (or she) had opened up >>>>> again once the signal cleared thinking he was being routed to the
relatively fast flyover.

That's the 4th time similar incidents have happened on the Southern
ECML. Twice it happened at Peterborough, and the RSSB(?) did not
recommend any improvement, yet NR did change one of the route indicating >>>> signals, as it was clear the signalling was being interpreted
differently by the Driver from what the Signaller intended.

Would it help if the signal released to a caution (single yellow) aspect >>>instead of clearing to green? Or would there still be a risk of accelerating >>>too quickly at first, followed by travelling unnecessarily slowly to the >>>next signal?

Alan Williams wrote about this in the March issue of MR:
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/green-does-not-always-mean-go

Yes, there's a paywall. So here's a short excerpt of his conclusion:

Thanks. I buy MR when I see it, but the only shop I can reliably find it in >is high street WHSmiths, and ours is now a trendy banking hub.

The most reliable vendor of railway magazines locally, is the
convenience store on platform 1 at Ely Station. Sadly, since barriers
were installed, it's no longer easy to access unless you have a ticket.
--
Roland Perry

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)