• Improved atomic clocks

    From Glen Walpert@3:633/10 to All on Friday, July 17, 2026 15:11:51
    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years,
    now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium
    atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton
    ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice
    clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can
    perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This
    allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time
    periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s
    lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started
    running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum
    Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    <https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure- einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on
    optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but
    arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    <https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From joegwinn@3:633/10 to All on Friday, July 17, 2026 14:32:58
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years,
    now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton
    ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice
    clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure- einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but >arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@3:633/10 to All on Friday, July 17, 2026 16:17:52
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice >>clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >>perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >>periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >>lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >>running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >>Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:
    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure- >einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >>optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but >>arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    As far as I know, NIST publications were planned to be publicly
    available, but are not currently available to the great unwashed
    masses for free.

    "The NIST Plan for Providing Public Access to Results of Federally
    Funded Research 2023 edition" <https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2023/NIST.IR.8084e2023.pdf>

    "Public Access to NIST Research"
    <https://www.nist.gov/open>


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 AE6KS 831-336-2558


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From joegwinn@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, July 18, 2026 09:43:09
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 16:17:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>>now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>>atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>>? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice >>>clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >>>perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>>allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >>>periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >>>lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >>>running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >>>Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:
    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure- >>einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >>>optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but >>>arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    As far as I know, NIST publications were planned to be publicly
    available, but are not currently available to the great unwashed
    masses for free.

    "The NIST Plan for Providing Public Access to Results of Federally
    Funded Research 2023 edition" ><https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2023/NIST.IR.8084e2023.pdf>

    "Public Access to NIST Research"
    <https://www.nist.gov/open>

    It's always been hidden in plain sight, well preceeding 2023. The pdf
    files have names of the form "<integer>.pdf", with no hint as to
    what's inside.

    Joe

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, July 18, 2026 08:05:26
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice >>clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >>perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >>periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >>lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >>running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >>Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:
    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure- >einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >>optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but >>arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    Given a narrow-bandwidth optical source, how does one divide it down
    to electronic frequencies?

    Rubidium clocks use some optical-microwave interaction in the rubidium
    vapor itself.


    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Martin Brown@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, July 18, 2026 16:30:53
    On 18/07/2026 14:43, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 16:17:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>>> now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>>> atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>>> ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice
    clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can
    perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>>> allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time
    periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >>>> lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >>>> running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >>>> Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure-
    einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on
    optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but
    arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    As far as I know, NIST publications were planned to be publicly
    available, but are not currently available to the great unwashed
    masses for free.

    "The NIST Plan for Providing Public Access to Results of Federally
    Funded Research 2023 edition"
    <https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2023/NIST.IR.8084e2023.pdf>

    "Public Access to NIST Research"
    <https://www.nist.gov/open>

    It's always been hidden in plain sight, well preceeding 2023. The pdf
    files have names of the form "<integer>.pdf", with no hint as to
    what's inside.

    That is more a feature of the cursed content management system.
    You can usually find stuff published in the open literature on arXiv.
    Many academic journals encourage researchers to publish there (even ones
    that have a paywall on the main site).

    --
    Martin Brown


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Phil Hobbs@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, July 18, 2026 15:32:50
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>> now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>> atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>> ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice
    clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can
    perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>> allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time
    periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s
    lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started
    running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum
    Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure- >> einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on
    optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but
    arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    Given a narrow-bandwidth optical source, how does one divide it down
    to electronic frequencies?

    Rubidium clocks use some optical-microwave interaction in the rubidium
    vapor itself.

    You heterodyne it with one line of a modelocked Ti:sapphire laser. The Hall-Haensch frequency comb works by broadening the pulse spectrum to an
    octave (by narrowing the pulses) and then locking a line on the high end to
    the second harmonic of one at the low end.

    That gives all the lines the same absolute stability (i.e. in hertz) as the
    RF reference. That bit of extreme cleverness got them the 2005 Nobel
    prize, and well deserved it was. (I know both of them slightly.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, July 19, 2026 01:36:14
    On 19/07/2026 1:05 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years,
    now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium
    atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>> ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice
    clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can
    perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This
    allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time
    periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s
    lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started
    running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum
    Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure- >> einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on
    optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but
    arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    Given a narrow-bandwidth optical source, how does one divide it down
    to electronic frequencies?

    This question has been asked here before. The 2005 Nobel prize in
    physics went to the people who developed this technique (amongst others).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_comb

    Rubidium clocks use some optical-microwave interaction in the rubidium
    vapor itself.

    Whatever.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From joegwinn@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, July 18, 2026 11:40:45
    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 08:05:26 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>>now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>>atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>>? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice >>>clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >>>perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>>allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >>>periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >>>lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >>>running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >>>Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:
    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure- >>einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >>>optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but >>>arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    Given a narrow-bandwidth optical source, how does one divide it down
    to electronic frequencies?

    Rubidium clocks use some optical-microwave interaction in the rubidium
    vapor itself.


    Optical Frequecy Combs, Tara Fortier et al, NIST, 2019 and subsequent.

    See <https://www.nist.gov/publications/20-years-developments-optical-frequency-comb-technology-and-applications>

    Joe

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From joegwinn@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, July 18, 2026 11:46:01
    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 15:32:50 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>>> now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>>> atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>>> ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice
    clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >>>> perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>>> allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >>>> periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >>>> lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >>>> running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >>>> Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure-
    einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >>>> optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but
    arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    Given a narrow-bandwidth optical source, how does one divide it down
    to electronic frequencies?

    Rubidium clocks use some optical-microwave interaction in the rubidium
    vapor itself.

    You heterodyne it with one line of a modelocked Ti:sapphire laser. The >Hall-Haensch frequency comb works by broadening the pulse spectrum to an >octave (by narrowing the pulses) and then locking a line on the high end to >the second harmonic of one at the low end.

    That gives all the lines the same absolute stability (i.e. in hertz) as the >RF reference. That bit of extreme cleverness got them the 2005 Nobel
    prize, and well deserved it was. (I know both of them slightly.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Yes, and the Nobel was well deserved. But Ti:sapphire lasers are
    still boat anchors even today.

    What has happened since 2005 is that the Telecom industry has
    developed and miniaturized the needed components, developing robust
    and simple solutions.

    Joe

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From joegwinn@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, July 18, 2026 11:52:52
    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 16:30:53 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/07/2026 14:43, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 16:17:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>>>> now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>>>> atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>>>> ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice >>>>> clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >>>>> perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>>>> allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >>>>> periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >>>>> lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >>>>> running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >>>>> Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure-
    einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >>>>> optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but
    arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    As far as I know, NIST publications were planned to be publicly
    available, but are not currently available to the great unwashed
    masses for free.

    "The NIST Plan for Providing Public Access to Results of Federally
    Funded Research 2023 edition"
    <https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2023/NIST.IR.8084e2023.pdf>

    "Public Access to NIST Research"
    <https://www.nist.gov/open>

    It's always been hidden in plain sight, well preceeding 2023. The pdf
    files have names of the form "<integer>.pdf", with no hint as to
    what's inside.

    That is more a feature of the cursed content management system.
    You can usually find stuff published in the open literature on arXiv.
    Many academic journals encourage researchers to publish there (even ones >that have a paywall on the main site).

    All true, but NIST is a special case. By US law, US Government
    publications cannot be copyrighted (because taxpayers already paid for
    them), so NIST always has an archive where one can get a copy, even if
    the article is also published in a formal journal behind a paywall.

    So a typical approach is to search for an article in the usual ways,
    and when the exact title is found, search for the title alone. This
    will also bring up the relevant NIST archive URL.

    Joe

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, July 18, 2026 09:29:59
    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 15:32:50 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>>> now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>>> atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>>> ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice
    clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >>>> perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>>> allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >>>> periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >>>> lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >>>> running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >>>> Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure-
    einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >>>> optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but
    arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    Given a narrow-bandwidth optical source, how does one divide it down
    to electronic frequencies?

    Rubidium clocks use some optical-microwave interaction in the rubidium
    vapor itself.

    You heterodyne it with one line of a modelocked Ti:sapphire laser. The >Hall-Haensch frequency comb works by broadening the pulse spectrum to an >octave (by narrowing the pulses) and then locking a line on the high end to >the second harmonic of one at the low end.

    That gives all the lines the same absolute stability (i.e. in hertz) as the >RF reference. That bit of extreme cleverness got them the 2005 Nobel
    prize, and well deserved it was. (I know both of them slightly.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    OK, that's cool. A modelocked laser runs roughly 100 MHz but makes
    such narrow pulses that it has harmonics in the optical range.


    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Monday, July 20, 2026 01:31:23
    On 19/07/2026 2:29 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 15:32:50 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million years, >>>>> now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or strontium >>>>> atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg carton >>>>> ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice >>>>> clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >>>>> perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. This >>>>> allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >>>>> periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s >>>>> lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started >>>>> running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the 'Quantum >>>>> Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure-
    einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >>>>> optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but
    arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    Given a narrow-bandwidth optical source, how does one divide it down
    to electronic frequencies?

    Rubidium clocks use some optical-microwave interaction in the rubidium
    vapor itself.

    You heterodyne it with one line of a modelocked Ti:sapphire laser. The
    Hall-Haensch frequency comb works by broadening the pulse spectrum to an
    octave (by narrowing the pulses) and then locking a line on the high end to >> the second harmonic of one at the low end.

    That gives all the lines the same absolute stability (i.e. in hertz) as the >> RF reference. That bit of extreme cleverness got them the 2005 Nobel
    prize, and well deserved it was. (I know both of them slightly.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    OK, that's cool. A modelocked laser runs roughly 100 MHz but makes
    such narrow pulses that it has harmonics in the optical range.

    That's got it sideways. A pulsed laser produces very narrow pulses -
    Dirac idealised them as infinitely narrow pulses - and the Fourier
    transform of a string of narrow pulses has a harmonic content of all the harmonics up to a limit set by the width of the pulse (a Dirac pulse has
    zero width as you'd expect in a theoretician's idealisation). If the
    harmonics go up to the frequency of the laser line itself and you get
    the interaction right, you can get a frequency comb where each of the harmonics is an integral sub-multiple of the optical reference frequency.

    Just having harmonics in the right frequency range isn't enough - you
    need a mechanism to lock the repetition rate to the right frequency

    Phil clearly understands what that mechanism is. I equally clearly don't.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Glen Walpert@3:633/10 to All on Monday, July 20, 2026 22:24:33
    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 11:52:52 -0400, joegwinn wrote:

    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 16:30:53 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/07/2026 14:43, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 16:17:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million
    years, now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or
    strontium atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting >>>>>> in an egg carton ? are also achieving stunning levels of
    performance. Because lattice clocks allow scientists to probe
    thousands of atoms at once, they can perform precision measurements >>>>>> much faster than single-ion clocks. This allows scientists to
    validate the clock performance over shorter time periods and
    perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s lattice >>>>>> clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started
    running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the
    'Quantum Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks- measure-
    einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers >>>>>> on optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, >>>>>> but arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    As far as I know, NIST publications were planned to be publicly
    available, but are not currently available to the great unwashed
    masses for free.

    "The NIST Plan for Providing Public Access to Results of Federally
    Funded Research 2023 edition"
    <https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2023/NIST.IR.8084e2023.pdf>

    "Public Access to NIST Research"
    <https://www.nist.gov/open>

    It's always been hidden in plain sight, well preceeding 2023. The pdf
    files have names of the form "<integer>.pdf", with no hint as to
    what's inside.

    That is more a feature of the cursed content management system.
    You can usually find stuff published in the open literature on arXiv.
    Many academic journals encourage researchers to publish there (even ones >>that have a paywall on the main site).

    All true, but NIST is a special case. By US law, US Government
    publications cannot be copyrighted (because taxpayers already paid for
    them), so NIST always has an archive where one can get a copy, even if
    the article is also published in a formal journal behind a paywall.

    So a typical approach is to search for an article in the usual ways, and
    when the exact title is found, search for the title alone. This will
    also bring up the relevant NIST archive URL.

    Joe

    Nice tip, thanks. One can also often obtain a copy of journal articles by contacting the lead author, which can work for papers not paid for by taxpayers, which is the case for some of the papers on optical lattice
    clocks and hyperfine transitions, of which there are at least 2 for 87Sr
    and at least 1 for Yt and Al. I decided I did not to try to figure out
    how they get millihertz linewidth at visible light frequencies when I got
    to the part about interaction with the nucleus allowing a doubly-
    prohibited state. The part about keeping an array of atoms at ~2 uK is
    easier to understand :-).

    Glen


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From joegwinn@3:633/10 to All on Monday, July 20, 2026 19:47:00
    On Mon, 20 Jul 2026 22:24:33 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 11:52:52 -0400, joegwinn wrote:

    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 16:30:53 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/07/2026 14:43, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 16:17:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>> wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million >>>>>>> years, now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>: >>>>>>>
    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or
    strontium atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting >>>>>>> in an egg carton ? are also achieving stunning levels of
    performance. Because lattice clocks allow scientists to probe
    thousands of atoms at once, they can perform precision measurements >>>>>>> much faster than single-ion clocks. This allows scientists to
    validate the clock performance over shorter time periods and
    perform precision studies of the clock frequencies. NIST?s lattice >>>>>>> clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they started
    running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the
    'Quantum Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks- >measure-
    einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers >>>>>>> on optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, >>>>>>> but arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST >>>>>> web site somewhere.

    Joe

    As far as I know, NIST publications were planned to be publicly
    available, but are not currently available to the great unwashed
    masses for free.

    "The NIST Plan for Providing Public Access to Results of Federally
    Funded Research 2023 edition"
    <https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2023/NIST.IR.8084e2023.pdf>

    "Public Access to NIST Research"
    <https://www.nist.gov/open>

    It's always been hidden in plain sight, well preceeding 2023. The pdf >>>> files have names of the form "<integer>.pdf", with no hint as to
    what's inside.

    That is more a feature of the cursed content management system.
    You can usually find stuff published in the open literature on arXiv. >>>Many academic journals encourage researchers to publish there (even ones >>>that have a paywall on the main site).

    All true, but NIST is a special case. By US law, US Government
    publications cannot be copyrighted (because taxpayers already paid for
    them), so NIST always has an archive where one can get a copy, even if
    the article is also published in a formal journal behind a paywall.

    So a typical approach is to search for an article in the usual ways, and
    when the exact title is found, search for the title alone. This will
    also bring up the relevant NIST archive URL.

    Joe

    Nice tip, thanks. One can also often obtain a copy of journal articles by >contacting the lead author, which can work for papers not paid for by >taxpayers, which is the case for some of the papers on optical lattice >clocks and hyperfine transitions, of which there are at least 2 for 87Sr
    and at least 1 for Yt and Al. I decided I did not to try to figure out
    how they get millihertz linewidth at visible light frequencies when I got
    to the part about interaction with the nucleus allowing a doubly-
    prohibited state. The part about keeping an array of atoms at ~2 uK is >easier to understand :-).

    Welcome.

    And Thorium clocks are coming soon.

    Joe

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, July 22, 2026 01:57:45
    On 20/07/2026 1:31 am, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 19/07/2026 2:29 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 15:32:50 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 14:32:58 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

    On Fri, 17 Jul 2026 15:11:51 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    The best cesium clocks are good to ~one second every 300 million
    years,
    now surpassed by optical lattice clocks.

    from <https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition/second/second-future>:

    "Optical ?lattice clocks,? which embed ultracold ytterbium or
    strontium
    atoms in a matrix of laser light ? think of eggs resting in an egg >>>>>> carton
    ? are also achieving stunning levels of performance. Because lattice >>>>>> clocks allow scientists to probe thousands of atoms at once, they can >>>>>> perform precision measurements much faster than single-ion clocks. >>>>>> This
    allows scientists to validate the clock performance over shorter time >>>>>> periods and perform precision studies of the clock frequencies.
    NIST?s
    lattice clocks would not have gained or lost a second had they
    started
    running at the Big Bang, roughly 13.8 billion years ago."
    ----

    The 87Sr version of the optical lattice clock was used in the
    'Quantum
    Sensor Breakthrough...' thread here, as well as:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2022/02/jila-atomic-clocks-measure-
    einsteins-general-relativity-millimeter-scale>

    The NIST pages are intended for the general public and most papers on >>>>>> optical lattice clocks were behind paywalls in my quick search, but >>>>>> arXiv.org has some details of current research:

    .<https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.18958>

    Glen

    Articles written by US Government entities like NIST cannot be
    copyrighted, and all such articles are available gratis on the NIST
    web site somewhere.

    Joe

    Given a narrow-bandwidth optical source, how does one divide it down
    to electronic frequencies?

    Rubidium clocks use some optical-microwave interaction in the rubidium >>>> vapor itself.

    You heterodyne it with one line of a modelocked Ti:sapphire laser. The
    Hall-Haensch frequency comb works by broadening the pulse spectrum to an >>> octave (by narrowing the pulses) and then locking a line on the high
    end to
    the second harmonic of one at the low end.

    That gives all the lines the same absolute stability (i.e. in hertz)
    as the
    RF reference.ÿ That bit of extreme cleverness got them the 2005 Nobel
    prize, and well deserved it was. (I know both of them slightly.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    OK, that's cool. A modelocked laser runs roughly 100 MHz but makes
    such narrow pulses that it has harmonics in the optical range.

    That's got it sideways. A pulsed laser produces very narrow pulses -
    Dirac idealised them as infinitely narrow pulses - and the Fourier
    transform of a string of narrow pulses has a harmonic content of all the harmonics up to a limit set by the width of the pulse (a Dirac pulse has zero width as you'd expect in a theoretician's idealisation). If the harmonics go up to the frequency of the laser line itself and you get
    the interaction right, you can get a frequency comb where each of the harmonics is an integral sub-multiple of the optical reference frequency.

    Just having harmonics in the right frequency range isn't enough - you
    need a mechanism to lock the repetition rate to the right frequency

    Phil clearly understands what that mechanism is. I equally clearly don't.

    I suppose if you chop up a laser beam into short pulses and squirt them
    into a cloud of Rubidium vapour, the exactly 6.834 682 610. 904 GHz
    harmonic component will get scattered by the rubidium vapour, and you
    will be able to pick up the scattered photons emitted at right angle to
    the beam.

    Presumably there would be a phase shift on the detected pulses, which
    you might be able to use to lock the harmonic number precisely.

    That would be the 68th harmonic of a laser beam pulsed at just above
    100MHz, and kicking the pulse rate up or down by about 1.5% would also
    get you scattered photons. Phil's description isn't couched in those
    terms, so I guess that there's an easier way of doing it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubidium_standard

    describes a cruder system. which synthesises the 6.84 GHz signal
    directly and detects the slight drop (0.1%) in the output of a Rubidium discharge lamp when you hit the detector cell at exactly the resonant frequency.

    Discharge lamps are crude beasts - the rubidium vapour doing the
    emission is hot, so the atoms are moving fast enough to Doppler shift
    the emissions. The description has a Rb-85 buffer gas cell between the discharge lamp and the Rb-85 gas detector cell which may tame that.

    Trapping the atom in optical wells so that they aren't moving at all is clearly a superior (and much more complicated) system.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)