• breakneck

    From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, June 13, 2026 06:48:21


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.




    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, June 14, 2026 01:02:49
    On 13/06/2026 11:48 pm, john larkin wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    The policies tend to get ghastly when non-engineers try to implement
    what they see as "scientifically engineered" policies and don't
    understand the policy or the science.

    Collect quotes from indoctrinated civil servants and you can put
    together a thoroughly alarmist text. It isn't as if the alarmist-book
    reading audience is all that knowledgeable.

    You swallow all sorts of fatuous climate change denial propaganda and
    recycle it here. Now you seem to be recycling equally dubious propaganda
    about China's over-engineered and under-lawyered society.

    You aren't going to be taken seriously about that either.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, June 13, 2026 08:52:04
    On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 01:02:49 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 13/06/2026 11:48 pm, john larkin wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are
    engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    The policies tend to get ghastly when non-engineers try to implement
    what they see as "scientifically engineered" policies and don't
    understand the policy or the science.

    Collect quotes from indoctrinated civil servants and you can put
    together a thoroughly alarmist text. It isn't as if the alarmist-book >reading audience is all that knowledgeable.

    You swallow all sorts of fatuous climate change denial propaganda and >recycle it here. Now you seem to be recycling equally dubious propaganda >about China's over-engineered and under-lawyered society.

    You aren't going to be taken seriously about that either.

    Read the book before you pontificate.


    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From joegwinn@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, June 13, 2026 14:09:05
    On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 06:48:21 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:



    <https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books>

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are >engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    Note that most leaders of European companies hold PhDs in a technical
    subject, so it's not clear that engineering is the cause either way.

    Joe

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, June 14, 2026 16:06:56
    On 14/06/2026 1:52 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 01:02:49 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 13/06/2026 11:48 pm, john larkin wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are
    engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    The policies tend to get ghastly when non-engineers try to implement
    what they see as "scientifically engineered" policies and don't
    understand the policy or the science.

    Collect quotes from indoctrinated civil servants and you can put
    together a thoroughly alarmist text. It isn't as if the alarmist-book
    reading audience is all that knowledgeable.

    You swallow all sorts of fatuous climate change denial propaganda and
    recycle it here. Now you seem to be recycling equally dubious propaganda
    about China's over-engineered and under-lawyered society.

    You aren't going to be taken seriously about that either.

    Read the book before you pontificate.

    You recommended it. I don't need to bother.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, June 14, 2026 16:13:01
    On 14/06/2026 4:09 am, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 06:48:21 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:



    <https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books>

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are
    engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    Note that most leaders of European companies hold PhDs in a technical subject, so it's not clear that engineering is the cause either way.

    Having a Ph.D. doesn't necessarily make you a good engineer. My work
    history put me in contact with a lot of colleagues who were Ph.D.s and
    good engineers, but also quite a few managers who had got Ph.D.s and
    were hopeless at engineering. Leading a company calls for different
    skills from getting a product to work. Getting a Ph.D. can call on those
    kinds of skills too.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From bitrex@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, June 14, 2026 12:23:13
    On 6/13/2026 9:48 AM, john larkin wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.




    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    China figured out individual liberties were bad for business.

    Elon Musk figured out the same thing which is why he didn't build his
    fortune being a transgender rights activist and trying to make voting
    easier.

    Incidentally "Engineer" is a prestige title in many non-Western
    cultures, like an MD or a JD or an MBA in the US. A ticket to the old
    boys club like getting a JD from Yale.

    I'm unsure of how many chemical engineering patents Xi Jinping has filed
    same as I'm unsure of how familiar JD Vance is with the Constitution
    despite both of them having degrees in the respective fields.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From bitrex@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, June 14, 2026 12:23:49
    On 6/14/2026 2:06 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 14/06/2026 1:52 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 01:02:49 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 13/06/2026 11:48 pm, john larkin wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/
    dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are >>>> engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    The policies tend to get ghastly when non-engineers try to implement
    what they see as "scientifically engineered" policies and don't
    understand the policy or the science.

    Collect quotes from indoctrinated civil servants and you can put
    together a thoroughly alarmist text. It isn't as if the alarmist-book
    reading audience is all that knowledgeable.

    You swallow all sorts of fatuous climate change denial propaganda and
    recycle it here. Now you seem to be recycling equally dubious propaganda >>> about China's over-engineered and under-lawyered society.

    You aren't going to be taken seriously about that either.

    Read the book before you pontificate.

    You recommended it. I don't need to bother.


    The summary conclusion is:

    "Chinese citizens would be better off if their government could learn to
    value individual liberties, while Americans would be better off if their government could learn to embrace engineering"

    The US government doesn't value individual liberties in any kind of
    general sense. In large part because a substantial minority of the US population whose instincts aligns with American's wealthiest people
    doesn't value them.

    The US government "embraces engineering" just fine it just puts the bulk
    of its investment into projects with military applications vs. public
    works, and so has the most expensive and technologically sophisticated military on the planet, which it then applies in various bungling stupid
    ways to generally make the world a worse place than before it showed up.

    Again this is so in large part because a substantial minority of the
    American population whose interests align with American's wealthiest
    people prefer it that way.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Monday, June 15, 2026 15:45:46
    On 15/06/2026 2:23 am, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/13/2026 9:48 AM, john larkin wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are
    engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.




    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    China figured out individual liberties were bad for business.

    Elon Musk figured out the same thing which is why he didn't build his fortune being a transgender rights activist and trying to make voting easier.

    Incidentally "Engineer" is a prestige title in many non-Western
    cultures, like an MD or a JD or an MBA in the US. A ticket to the old
    boys club like getting a JD from Yale.

    I'm unsure of how many chemical engineering patents Xi Jinping has filed same as I'm unsure of how familiar JD Vance is with the Constitution
    despite both of them having degrees in the respective fields.

    There's a distinction between development engineers - who can get
    patents - and administrative engineers, who keep projects coordinated.

    They both have to understand much the same science, but they use that understanding in rather different ways.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Monday, June 15, 2026 07:55:55
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 12:17:23 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek
    Hebisch) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are
    engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    I would guess that percentage of leaders that have engineering
    background is similar to percentage of engineering student
    amoung all students.

    The current top leadership of the PRC is almost all people educated as engineers. And all men.


    In communist era there was a discussion if my country has too
    many engineers. There was comparision with western countries
    and most had lower percentage of engineers among people with
    higher education. That I think missed significant point:
    most western countries outsourced a lot of manufacturing, so
    that they did not need production engineers (and part of
    design was outsourced too). At that time my country
    domestically produced most goods (about 95% was domestically
    produced and 5% imported), so needed production engineers.
    Comparison involved also Japan, where percentage of
    engineers was significantly higher than in typical western
    countries. I do not have relevant data but I would guess
    that at that time Japan were manufacturing a lot of
    things and outsorced a little (if any).

    During recent trade tensions between US and China there was
    also talk about relocating production from China to other
    countries. It was argued that in short or even middle time
    this is impossible: China have plenty of experienced
    production engineers. They are not available in other
    countries.

    China has a built-in demographic crisis, not to mention all the kids
    lying flat.


    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From someone@3:633/10 to All on Monday, June 15, 2026 20:45:02
    This non-observation almost certainly results from the fact that the early, and probably later, Chinese revolutionary figures and future leader class were all trained by the Soviets. The history of the USSR is a succession of failed scientifically engineered policies.

    --
    For full context, visit https://www.electrondepot.com/electrodesign/breakneck-4404699-.htm


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.16
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, June 16, 2026 18:09:14
    On 16/06/2026 12:55 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 12:17:23 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are
    engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    I would guess that percentage of leaders that have engineering
    background is similar to percentage of engineering student
    amoung all students.

    The current top leadership of the PRC is almost all people educated as engineers. And all men.


    In communist era there was a discussion if my country has too
    many engineers. There was comparision with western countries
    and most had lower percentage of engineers among people with
    higher education. That I think missed significant point:
    most western countries outsourced a lot of manufacturing, so
    that they did not need production engineers (and part of
    design was outsourced too). At that time my country
    domestically produced most goods (about 95% was domestically
    produced and 5% imported), so needed production engineers.
    Comparison involved also Japan, where percentage of
    engineers was significantly higher than in typical western
    countries. I do not have relevant data but I would guess
    that at that time Japan were manufacturing a lot of
    things and outsorced a little (if any).

    During recent trade tensions between US and China there was
    also talk about relocating production from China to other
    countries. It was argued that in short or even middle time
    this is impossible: China have plenty of experienced
    production engineers. They are not available in other
    countries.

    China has a built-in demographic crisis, not to mention all the kids
    lying flat.

    Pretty much every advanced industrial country has a demographic crisis. Populations need to halve to get us down to sustainable levels.

    China's "one child" policy got them on the right track early, but their preference for having male children created a bigger mess than it needed to.

    The control loop is under-damped, and it's not a subject where it is
    easy to encourage rational reactions.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, June 16, 2026 10:47:36
    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 18:09:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 16/06/2026 12:55 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 12:17:23 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek
    Hebisch) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are >>>> engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    I would guess that percentage of leaders that have engineering
    background is similar to percentage of engineering student
    amoung all students.

    The current top leadership of the PRC is almost all people educated as
    engineers. And all men.


    In communist era there was a discussion if my country has too
    many engineers. There was comparision with western countries
    and most had lower percentage of engineers among people with
    higher education. That I think missed significant point:
    most western countries outsourced a lot of manufacturing, so
    that they did not need production engineers (and part of
    design was outsourced too). At that time my country
    domestically produced most goods (about 95% was domestically
    produced and 5% imported), so needed production engineers.
    Comparison involved also Japan, where percentage of
    engineers was significantly higher than in typical western
    countries. I do not have relevant data but I would guess
    that at that time Japan were manufacturing a lot of
    things and outsorced a little (if any).

    During recent trade tensions between US and China there was
    also talk about relocating production from China to other
    countries. It was argued that in short or even middle time
    this is impossible: China have plenty of experienced
    production engineers. They are not available in other
    countries.

    China has a built-in demographic crisis, not to mention all the kids
    lying flat.

    Pretty much every advanced industrial country has a demographic crisis. >Populations need to halve to get us down to sustainable levels.

    The existing population is sustainable, but we don't need 9 billion
    people. A gradual decline is probable. The US fertility rate is about
    1.6, but China is probably below 1.


    China's "one child" policy got them on the right track early, but their >preference for having male children created a bigger mess than it needed to.

    One child was brutal. Forced abortions and sterilization, infanticide, brutality.

    And it was stupid, based on dumb linear extrapolation math, and on
    "The Population Bomb". Erlich ranks among history's mass murderers..


    The control loop is under-damped, and it's not a subject where it is
    easy to encourage rational reactions.

    Prosperity and education reduce birth rates. The CCP should have
    realised that.

    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From someone@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, June 17, 2026 02:30:02
    The handwriting was on the wall 40 years ago for engineering and the applied sciences. Now it's the basic sciences. It's over for the west, China is the new dominant powerhouse.

    See the objective data-based assessment for details:

    "China surpasses US in research spending ? the consequences extend far beyond scientific ranking and clout"

    "China?s rapid rise in science has hit a milestone. The country?s investment in research and development has reached parity with ? and by purchasing power measures has surpassed ? that of the United States, according to a March 2026 report from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Both nations have crossed the US$1 trillion threshold on research spending."

    https://theconversation.com/china-surpasses-us-in-research-spending-the-consequences-extend-far-beyond-scientific-ranking-and-clout-280543

    --
    For full context, visit https://www.electrondepot.com/electrodesign/breakneck-4404699-.htm


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, June 17, 2026 15:26:02
    On 17/06/2026 3:47 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 18:09:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 16/06/2026 12:55 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 12:17:23 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek
    Hebisch) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are >>>>> engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    I would guess that percentage of leaders that have engineering
    background is similar to percentage of engineering student
    amoung all students.

    The current top leadership of the PRC is almost all people educated as
    engineers. And all men.


    In communist era there was a discussion if my country has too
    many engineers. There was comparision with western countries
    and most had lower percentage of engineers among people with
    higher education. That I think missed significant point:
    most western countries outsourced a lot of manufacturing, so
    that they did not need production engineers (and part of
    design was outsourced too). At that time my country
    domestically produced most goods (about 95% was domestically
    produced and 5% imported), so needed production engineers.
    Comparison involved also Japan, where percentage of
    engineers was significantly higher than in typical western
    countries. I do not have relevant data but I would guess
    that at that time Japan were manufacturing a lot of
    things and outsorced a little (if any).

    During recent trade tensions between US and China there was
    also talk about relocating production from China to other
    countries. It was argued that in short or even middle time
    this is impossible: China have plenty of experienced
    production engineers. They are not available in other
    countries.

    China has a built-in demographic crisis, not to mention all the kids
    lying flat.

    Pretty much every advanced industrial country has a demographic crisis.
    Populations need to halve to get us down to sustainable levels.

    The existing population is sustainable, but we don't need 9 billion
    people. A gradual decline is probable. The US fertility rate is about
    1.6, but China is probably below 1.

    At the moment. Fertility depends on decisions taken today. A different
    social environments is going to generate different decisions.

    China's "one child" policy got them on the right track early, but their
    preference for having male children created a bigger mess than it needed to.

    One child was brutal. Forced abortions and sterilization, infanticide, brutality.

    The Chinese regime is brutal. Their implementation of the one child
    policy was just as brutal as their implementation of al their other
    policy decisions.

    And it was stupid, based on dumb linear extrapolation math, and on
    "The Population Bomb". Erlich ranks among history's mass murderers.

    Erlich was an alarmist author, of the kind whose books you recommend.
    Anybody taking him seriously was a gullible twit. Giving bad advice
    doesn't make you a mass murderer - if that were the case your enthusiasm
    for climate change denial propaganda wp\ould qualify you for death row.

    The control loop is under-damped, and it's not a subject where it is
    easy to encourage rational reactions.

    Prosperity and education reduce birth rates.

    They are doing that at the moment. They certainly didn't in the past,
    where rich families had lots of kids and could feed them well enough
    that more than half of them could survive to reproductive age.

    The CCP should have realised that.

    Really? There weren't a lot of well documented examples around at the
    time, and the CCP wasn't into studying that kind of data.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, June 17, 2026 15:43:14
    On 17/06/2026 12:30 pm, someone wrote:
    The handwriting was on the wall 40 years ago for engineering and the
    applied sciences. Now it's the basic sciences. It's over for the west,
    China is the new dominant powerhouse.

    See the objective data-based assessment for details:

    "China surpasses US in research spending ƒ?? the consequences extend far beyond scientific ranking and clout"

    "Chinaƒ??s rapid rise in science has hit a milestone. The countryƒ??s investment in research and development has reached parity with ƒ?? and
    by purchasing power measures has surpassed ƒ?? that of the United
    States, according to a March 2026 report from the Organisation for
    Economic Co-operation and Development. Both nations have crossed the
    US$1 trillion threshold on research spending."

    You've got to spend the money in the right areas to get the results you
    are looking for.

    A rigid hierarchical society isn't good at doing that. I met one really
    good Chinese mechanical engineer in the UK and he soon got head-hunted
    by a US firm with the offer of US citizenship quickly. He really didn't
    want to take his family back to China. US society is pretty rigidly
    structured by wealth, but if you get rich you can move up fairly quickly.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, June 17, 2026 05:08:10
    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 15:26:02 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 3:47 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 18:09:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 16/06/2026 12:55 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 12:17:23 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek
    Hebisch) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:


    https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034?s=books

    Among other interesting things, it notes that most Chinese leaders are >>>>>> engineers. And most truly ghastly policies were scientifically
    engineered.

    I would guess that percentage of leaders that have engineering
    background is similar to percentage of engineering student
    amoung all students.

    The current top leadership of the PRC is almost all people educated as >>>> engineers. And all men.


    In communist era there was a discussion if my country has too
    many engineers. There was comparision with western countries
    and most had lower percentage of engineers among people with
    higher education. That I think missed significant point:
    most western countries outsourced a lot of manufacturing, so
    that they did not need production engineers (and part of
    design was outsourced too). At that time my country
    domestically produced most goods (about 95% was domestically
    produced and 5% imported), so needed production engineers.
    Comparison involved also Japan, where percentage of
    engineers was significantly higher than in typical western
    countries. I do not have relevant data but I would guess
    that at that time Japan were manufacturing a lot of
    things and outsorced a little (if any).

    During recent trade tensions between US and China there was
    also talk about relocating production from China to other
    countries. It was argued that in short or even middle time
    this is impossible: China have plenty of experienced
    production engineers. They are not available in other
    countries.

    China has a built-in demographic crisis, not to mention all the kids
    lying flat.

    Pretty much every advanced industrial country has a demographic crisis.
    Populations need to halve to get us down to sustainable levels.

    The existing population is sustainable, but we don't need 9 billion
    people. A gradual decline is probable. The US fertility rate is about
    1.6, but China is probably below 1.

    At the moment. Fertility depends on decisions taken today. A different >social environments is going to generate different decisions.

    China's "one child" policy got them on the right track early, but their
    preference for having male children created a bigger mess than it needed to.

    One child was brutal. Forced abortions and sterilization, infanticide,
    brutality.

    The Chinese regime is brutal. Their implementation of the one child
    policy was just as brutal as their implementation of al their other
    policy decisions.

    And it was stupid, based on dumb linear extrapolation math, and on
    "The Population Bomb". Erlich ranks among history's mass murderers.

    Erlich was an alarmist author, of the kind whose books you recommend.
    Anybody taking him seriously was a gullible twit. Giving bad advice
    doesn't make you a mass murderer - if that were the case your enthusiasm
    for climate change denial propaganda wp\ould qualify you for death row.

    The control loop is under-damped, and it's not a subject where it is
    easy to encourage rational reactions.

    Prosperity and education reduce birth rates.

    They are doing that at the moment. They certainly didn't in the past,
    where rich families had lots of kids and could feed them well enough
    that more than half of them could survive to reproductive age.

    The CCP should have realised that.

    Really? There weren't a lot of well documented examples around at the
    time, and the CCP wasn't into studying that kind of data.

    You won't read the book so you'll never know.


    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, June 17, 2026 05:32:24
    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 02:30:02 +0000, someone <2a59d59e3809f827ce709d3815e3950eef4a6a93af5557a93a7fdfba71460843@example.com> wrote:

    The handwriting was on the wall 40 years ago for engineering and the applied sciences. Now it's the basic sciences. It's over for the west, China is the new dominant powerhouse.

    Europe is certainly in decline. I expect China to decline and the US
    to keep inventing things.


    See the objective data-based assessment for details:

    "China surpasses US in research spending ? the consequences extend far beyond scientific ranking and clout"

    "China?s rapid rise in science has hit a milestone. The country?s investment in research and development has reached parity with ? and by purchasing power measures has surpassed ? that of the United States, according to a March 2026 report from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Both nations have crossed the US$1 trillion threshold on research spending."

    https://theconversation.com/china-surpasses-us-in-research-spending-the-consequences-extend-far-beyond-scientific-ranking-and-clout-280543

    There's more to life than scientific papers and patents.

    China crushes really creative people.


    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, June 18, 2026 01:11:57
    On 17/06/2026 10:08 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 15:26:02 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 3:47 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 18:09:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 16/06/2026 12:55 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 12:17:23 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek >>>>> Hebisch) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    <snip>

    Erlich was an alarmist author, of the kind whose books you recommend.
    Anybody taking him seriously was a gullible twit. Giving bad advice
    doesn't make you a mass murderer - if that were the case your enthusiasm
    for climate change denial propaganda wp\ould qualify you for death row.

    The control loop is under-damped, and it's not a subject where it is
    easy to encourage rational reactions.

    Prosperity and education reduce birth rates.

    They are doing that at the moment. They certainly didn't in the past,
    where rich families had lots of kids and could feed them well enough
    that more than half of them could survive to reproductive age.

    The CCP should have realised that.

    Really? There weren't a lot of well documented examples around at the
    time, and the CCP wasn't into studying that kind of data.

    You won't read the book so you'll never know.

    And if I did read the book I probably still wouldn't know. That kind of
    book confidently makes lots of dubious assertions, and it's unwise to
    rely on that kind of single source, particularly when it obviously has a
    axe to grind.

    I've read lots of books, and some of them are clearly are more reliable
    than others. You don't seem to have read all that many, and you do seem
    to be unduly impressed by the ones you have read. Your capacity to
    swallow the misinformation you get out of climate change denial
    propaganda doesn't suggest that you are a particularly critical reader.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, June 18, 2026 01:29:28
    On 17/06/2026 10:32 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 02:30:02 +0000, someone <2a59d59e3809f827ce709d3815e3950eef4a6a93af5557a93a7fdfba71460843@example.com>
    wrote:

    The handwriting was on the wall 40 years ago for engineering and the applied sciences. Now it's the basic sciences. It's over for the west, China is the new dominant powerhouse.

    Europe is certainly in decline. I expect China to decline and the US
    to keep inventing things.

    John Larkin is certain that Europe is in decline. He's also certain that anthropogenic global warming is a hoax, and that Donald J. Trump has
    common sense.

    I wonder what he thinks that the US has invented recently.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_Jr.

    has invented quite a few silly ideas about health care, but this isn't a virtue. John Larkin's expectations about China's eventual decline are
    probably as well-founded.


    See the objective data-based assessment for details:

    "China surpasses US in research spending ƒ?? the consequences extend far beyond scientific ranking and clout"

    "Chinaƒ??s rapid rise in science has hit a milestone. The countryƒ??s investment in research and development has reached parity with ƒ?? and by purchasing power measures has surpassed ƒ?? that of the United States, according to a March 2026 report from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Both nations have crossed the US$1 trillion threshold on research spending."

    https://theconversation.com/china-surpasses-us-in-research-spending-the-consequences-extend-far-beyond-scientific-ranking-and-clout-280543

    There's more to life than scientific papers and patents.

    And the content of the scientific papers and the patents also matters.

    China crushes really creative people.

    Got an example? The US isn't a particularly positive environment for the
    less well-off either.

    Sweden is about the only place in the world where the children of single parents do as well as the children of couples.

    The other Nordic countries and the Netherlands do seem to come close.
    Good social security does seem to work.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, June 17, 2026 09:03:09
    On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 01:29:28 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 10:32 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 02:30:02 +0000, someone
    <2a59d59e3809f827ce709d3815e3950eef4a6a93af5557a93a7fdfba71460843@example.com>
    wrote:

    The handwriting was on the wall 40 years ago for engineering and the applied sciences. Now it's the basic sciences. It's over for the west, China is the new dominant powerhouse.

    Europe is certainly in decline. I expect China to decline and the US
    to keep inventing things.

    John Larkin is certain that Europe is in decline. He's also certain that >anthropogenic global warming is a hoax, and that Donald J. Trump has
    common sense.

    I wonder what he thinks that the US has invented recently.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_Jr.

    has invented quite a few silly ideas about health care, but this isn't a >virtue. John Larkin's expectations about China's eventual decline are >probably as well-founded.


    See the objective data-based assessment for details:

    "China surpasses US in research spending ? the consequences extend far beyond scientific ranking and clout"

    "China?s rapid rise in science has hit a milestone. The country?s investment in research and development has reached parity with ? and by purchasing power measures has surpassed ? that of the United States, according to a March 2026 report from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Both nations have crossed the US$1 trillion threshold on research spending."

    https://theconversation.com/china-surpasses-us-in-research-spending-the-consequences-extend-far-beyond-scientific-ranking-and-clout-280543

    There's more to life than scientific papers and patents.

    And the content of the scientific papers and the patents also matters.

    China crushes really creative people.

    Got an example? The US isn't a particularly positive environment for the >less well-off either.

    Jack Ma.

    Some giant enterprises were started without academic sanctions or
    massive financing. Apple. Facebook. PayPal. Amazon. Intel. TI.
    Pratt&Whitney. Electronic television. Ford. Many others.

    The US is still a place where someone can start a small business that
    gets big.

    I was thinking about scientific discoveries that had serious economic
    impact. The only good ones, in the last 50 years or so, seem to have
    been medical.

    The last important physical-science thing was probably the laser.


    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, June 17, 2026 09:27:03
    On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 01:11:57 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 10:08 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 15:26:02 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 3:47 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 18:09:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>> wrote:

    On 16/06/2026 12:55 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 12:17:23 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek >>>>>> Hebisch) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    <snip>

    Erlich was an alarmist author, of the kind whose books you recommend.
    Anybody taking him seriously was a gullible twit. Giving bad advice
    doesn't make you a mass murderer - if that were the case your enthusiasm >>> for climate change denial propaganda wp\ould qualify you for death row.

    The control loop is under-damped, and it's not a subject where it is >>>>> easy to encourage rational reactions.

    Prosperity and education reduce birth rates.

    They are doing that at the moment. They certainly didn't in the past,
    where rich families had lots of kids and could feed them well enough
    that more than half of them could survive to reproductive age.

    The CCP should have realised that.

    Really? There weren't a lot of well documented examples around at the
    time, and the CCP wasn't into studying that kind of data.

    You won't read the book so you'll never know.

    And if I did read the book I probably still wouldn't know. That kind of
    book confidently makes lots of dubious assertions, and it's unwise to
    rely on that kind of single source, particularly when it obviously has a
    axe to grind.

    I've read lots of books, and some of them are clearly are more reliable
    than others. You don't seem to have read all that many, and you do seem
    to be unduly impressed by the ones you have read. Your capacity to
    swallow the misinformation you get out of climate change denial
    propaganda doesn't suggest that you are a particularly critical reader.

    I read maybe 2 books per week. I'm curently reading "1491", about
    civilization in the Americas before the europeans arrived.

    Another book that you don't want to read is

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/0593832833




    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Gerhard Hoffmann@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, June 17, 2026 19:02:58
    Am 17.06.26 um 18:27 schrieb john larkin:


    I read maybe 2 books per week. I'm curently reading "1491", about civilization in the Americas before the europeans arrived.

    Yes, the first Indian to see Columbus made a horrific discovery.

    BTW, Columbus was not the first. The Vikings such as Leif Ericson
    were nearly 500 years earlier. There is even archeologic evidence.

    Gerhard


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, June 18, 2026 03:04:47
    On 18/06/2026 2:27 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 01:11:57 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 10:08 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 15:26:02 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 3:47 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 18:09:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>> wrote:

    On 16/06/2026 12:55 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 12:17:23 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek >>>>>>> Hebisch) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    <snip>

    Erlich was an alarmist author, of the kind whose books you recommend.
    Anybody taking him seriously was a gullible twit. Giving bad advice
    doesn't make you a mass murderer - if that were the case your enthusiasm >>>> for climate change denial propaganda wp\ould qualify you for death row. >>>>
    The control loop is under-damped, and it's not a subject where it is >>>>>> easy to encourage rational reactions.

    Prosperity and education reduce birth rates.

    They are doing that at the moment. They certainly didn't in the past,
    where rich families had lots of kids and could feed them well enough
    that more than half of them could survive to reproductive age.

    The CCP should have realised that.

    Really? There weren't a lot of well documented examples around at the
    time, and the CCP wasn't into studying that kind of data.

    You won't read the book so you'll never know.

    And if I did read the book I probably still wouldn't know. That kind of
    book confidently makes lots of dubious assertions, and it's unwise to
    rely on that kind of single source, particularly when it obviously has a
    axe to grind.

    I've read lots of books, and some of them are clearly are more reliable
    than others. You don't seem to have read all that many, and you do seem
    to be unduly impressed by the ones you have read. Your capacity to
    swallow the misinformation you get out of climate change denial
    propaganda doesn't suggest that you are a particularly critical reader.

    I read maybe 2 books per week. I'm currently reading "1491", about civilization in the Americas before the Europeans arrived.

    If you read more, your spelling might be more reliable.
    Who cares about pre-historic civilisations? Our current worry is the
    defects in the one we had before Donald J Trump started playing silly
    games with it. America liked to think that it was Hitler-proof, despite
    the fact that it's political arrangements are even more antiquated that
    the one's in use in Germany in the late 1920's.

    Another book that you don't want to read is

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/0593832833

    You've touted it here before. I didn't think much of it then.
    Theo Baker did bring down Marc Tessier-Lavigne, because bad things had happened in some of Marc Tessier-Lavigne's projects, but it's less
    obvious that Marc Tessier-Lavigne was actually responsible for the bad
    stuff, as opposed to not being careful enough to make sure that it
    didn't happen in the first place.

    I certainly don't want to read it - it sounds more like a documentation
    Theo Baker's ego-trip than any kind of lesson in how to stop that kind
    of bad stuff happening.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, June 18, 2026 03:40:12
    On 18/06/2026 2:03 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 01:29:28 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 10:32 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 02:30:02 +0000, someone
    <2a59d59e3809f827ce709d3815e3950eef4a6a93af5557a93a7fdfba71460843@example.com>
    wrote:

    The handwriting was on the wall 40 years ago for engineering and the applied sciences. Now it's the basic sciences. It's over for the west, China is the new dominant powerhouse.

    Europe is certainly in decline. I expect China to decline and the US
    to keep inventing things.

    John Larkin is certain that Europe is in decline. He's also certain that
    anthropogenic global warming is a hoax, and that Donald J. Trump has
    common sense.

    I wonder what he thinks that the US has invented recently.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_Jr.

    has invented quite a few silly ideas about health care, but this isn't a
    virtue. John Larkin's expectations about China's eventual decline are
    probably as well-founded.


    See the objective data-based assessment for details:

    "China surpasses US in research spending ƒ?? the consequences extend far beyond scientific ranking and clout"

    "Chinaƒ??s rapid rise in science has hit a milestone. The countryƒ??s investment in research and development has reached parity with ƒ?? and by purchasing power measures has surpassed ƒ?? that of the United States, according to a March 2026 report from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. Both nations have crossed the US$1 trillion threshold on research spending."

    https://theconversation.com/china-surpasses-us-in-research-spending-the-consequences-extend-far-beyond-scientific-ranking-and-clout-280543

    There's more to life than scientific papers and patents.

    And the content of the scientific papers and the patents also matters.

    China crushes really creative people.

    Got an example? The US isn't a particularly positive environment for the
    less well-off either.

    Jack Ma.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma

    doesn't paint him as a "really creative person". He did exploit newly available possibilities remarkably effectively, but it isn't entirely
    clear that he was adding value to what was going on.

    Some giant enterprises were started without academic sanctions or
    massive financing. Apple. Facebook. PayPal. Amazon. Intel. TI.
    Pratt&Whitney. Electronic television. Ford. Many others.

    That's an interesting grab bag. Apple, Facebook, PayPal and Amazon are
    pretty recent. Intel is semiconductors rather than internet, TI was an instrument company long before it got into semiconductors.

    Pratt and Whitney was a machine tool company that got into aircraft
    engines in 1925. Electronic television wasn't invented in the US - the
    UK had it before WW2. Henry Ford was a just weird, and famously
    supported Adolf Hitler in the 1920's.

    The US is still a place where someone can start a small business that
    gets big.

    But both Elon Musk and Donald J Trump had very rich fathers.

    I was thinking about scientific discoveries that had serious economic
    impact. The only good ones, in the last 50 years or so, seem to have
    been medical.

    Computers and the internet have had quite a lot of economic impact. They
    trump any medical innovations. Your problem is that you don't know much
    about science or economics

    The last important physical-science thing was probably the laser.

    The world-wide-web was a whole lot more important. One of the more
    important spin-offs from CERN.

    The Josephson junction was discovered more recently than the laser and
    has got to be in the same ball-park.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From john larkin@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, June 17, 2026 11:10:09
    On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 03:04:47 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 18/06/2026 2:27 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jun 2026 01:11:57 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 10:08 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 15:26:02 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>> wrote:

    On 17/06/2026 3:47 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 18:09:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>> wrote:

    On 16/06/2026 12:55 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 12:17:23 -0000 (UTC), antispam@fricas.org (Waldek >>>>>>>> Hebisch) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    <snip>

    Erlich was an alarmist author, of the kind whose books you recommend. >>>>> Anybody taking him seriously was a gullible twit. Giving bad advice
    doesn't make you a mass murderer - if that were the case your enthusiasm >>>>> for climate change denial propaganda wp\ould qualify you for death row. >>>>>
    The control loop is under-damped, and it's not a subject where it is >>>>>>> easy to encourage rational reactions.

    Prosperity and education reduce birth rates.

    They are doing that at the moment. They certainly didn't in the past, >>>>> where rich families had lots of kids and could feed them well enough >>>>> that more than half of them could survive to reproductive age.

    The CCP should have realised that.

    Really? There weren't a lot of well documented examples around at the >>>>> time, and the CCP wasn't into studying that kind of data.

    You won't read the book so you'll never know.

    And if I did read the book I probably still wouldn't know. That kind of
    book confidently makes lots of dubious assertions, and it's unwise to
    rely on that kind of single source, particularly when it obviously has a >>> axe to grind.

    I've read lots of books, and some of them are clearly are more reliable
    than others. You don't seem to have read all that many, and you do seem
    to be unduly impressed by the ones you have read. Your capacity to
    swallow the misinformation you get out of climate change denial
    propaganda doesn't suggest that you are a particularly critical reader.

    I read maybe 2 books per week. I'm currently reading "1491", about
    civilization in the Americas before the Europeans arrived.

    If you read more, your spelling might be more reliable.

    I never learned to type, and the Agent spell checker is a nuisance.

    Your spelling isn't perfect. And I wish you would learn the difference
    between its and it's.

    Who cares about pre-historic civilisations? Our current worry is the
    defects in the one we had before Donald J Trump started playing silly
    games with it. America liked to think that it was Hitler-proof, despite
    the fact that it's political arrangements are even more antiquated that
    the one's in use in Germany in the late 1920's.

    Another book that you don't want to read is

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/0593832833

    You've touted it here before. I didn't think much of it then.
    Theo Baker did bring down Marc Tessier-Lavigne, because bad things had >happened in some of Marc Tessier-Lavigne's projects, but it's less
    obvious that Marc Tessier-Lavigne was actually responsible for the bad >stuff, as opposed to not being careful enough to make sure that it
    didn't happen in the first place.

    I certainly don't want to read it - it sounds more like a documentation
    Theo Baker's ego-trip than any kind of lesson in how to stop that kind
    of bad stuff happening.

    The really interesting part is about the silicon valley culture,
    centered on Stanford.

    That gets back to another thread where it was claimed that China
    innovates but the USA doesn't.

    You'd have to read it to see the connection. You won't.


    John Larkin
    Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
    Lunatic Fringe Electronics

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.17
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)