The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of? Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of? Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
On Sun, 31 May 2026 07:16:49 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of? Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
Even dry-seeming concrete is a reasonably good electrical conductor - implements a resistor.
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of? Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
On Sun, 31 May 2026 07:16:49 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of? Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
Concrete shrinks during curing. You can buy thermally stable concrete (hydraulic cement) which is fairly stable. There are many factors
that affect the amount of expansion or shrinkage. This might help: <https://www.terrayamaken.com/en/understanding-plastic-shrinkage-cracking-in-concrete/>
Other things to worry about:
- Air bubbles from outgassing. That's why vibrators are used in
concrete foundation construction.
- Shrinkage during curing which will cause cracks.
- High water content (about 50% water) in concrete will corrode
components.
- High water content (about 50% water) can expand and crack concrete
when frozen. The water can also turn to vapor when heated above 100C
causing spalling.
- Chlorine (salt water) contamination will corrode copper.
- Lack of adhesion to components will produce a cavity for water to
collect.
Instead of reinventing the wheel, perhaps you should consider using
epoxy, urethane or silicone potting compounds. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potting_(electronics)>
On 5/31/2026 10:59 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2026 07:16:49 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of?ÿ Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
Concrete shrinks during curing.ÿ You can buy thermally stable concrete
(hydraulic cement) which is fairly stable.ÿ There are many factors
that affect the amount of expansion or shrinkage.ÿ This might help:
<https://www.terrayamaken.com/en/understanding-plastic-shrinkage-
cracking-in-concrete/>
I only care to the extent that shrinkage alters the mechanical characteristics of the "potted" devices.ÿ I don't imagine their
presence will materially affect the behavior of the encapsulant,
itself.
Other things to worry about:
- Air bubbles from outgassing.ÿ That's why vibrators are used in
concrete foundation construction.
- Shrinkage during curing which will cause cracks.
- High water content (about 50% water) in concrete will corrode
components.
- High water content (about 50% water) can expand and crack concrete
when frozen.ÿ The water can also turn to vapor when heated above 100C
causing spalling.
- Chlorine (salt water) contamination will corrode copper.
- Lack of adhesion to components will produce a cavity for water to
collect.
Conformal coating should maintain a barrier between the components
and the encapsulant.
I imagine the mortar/cement/concrete will be installed with all
of the above in mind.ÿ I can't protect against folks who don't
know how to handle the material.ÿ I just want to drop something
in while they are "doing their thing".
If the material isn't suited to the environment in which it is
deployed, then that's not my problem, either.
Instead of reinventing the wheel, perhaps you should consider using
epoxy, urethane or silicone potting compounds.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potting_(electronics)>
Adds a step:
- pot in epoxy
- and THEN place potted item in mortar/cement/concrete
And, makes the potted device arguably larger (than just
a conformal coat would).
I'm trying to see if that first step can be eliminated
and that second issue avoided.
On 5/31/2026 10:59 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2026 07:16:49 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of? Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
Concrete shrinks during curing. You can buy thermally stable concrete
(hydraulic cement) which is fairly stable. There are many factors
that affect the amount of expansion or shrinkage. This might help:
<https://www.terrayamaken.com/en/understanding-plastic-shrinkage-cracking-in-concrete/>
I only care to the extent that shrinkage alters the mechanical >characteristics of the "potted" devices. I don't imagine their
presence will materially affect the behavior of the encapsulant,
itself.
Other things to worry about:
- Air bubbles from outgassing. That's why vibrators are used in
concrete foundation construction.
- Shrinkage during curing which will cause cracks.
- High water content (about 50% water) in concrete will corrode
components.
- High water content (about 50% water) can expand and crack concrete
when frozen. The water can also turn to vapor when heated above 100C
causing spalling.
- Chlorine (salt water) contamination will corrode copper.
- Lack of adhesion to components will produce a cavity for water to
collect.
Conformal coating should maintain a barrier between the components
and the encapsulant.
I imagine the mortar/cement/concrete will be installed with all
of the above in mind. I can't protect against folks who don't
know how to handle the material. I just want to drop something
in while they are "doing their thing".
If the material isn't suited to the environment in which it is
deployed, then that's not my problem, either.
Adds a step:
- pot in epoxy
- and THEN place potted item in mortar/cement/concrete
And, makes the potted device arguably larger (than just
a conformal coat would).
I'm trying to see if that first step can be eliminated
and that second issue avoided.
[1] Instead of reinventing the wheel, perhaps you should consider using
epoxy, urethane or silicone potting compounds.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potting_(electronics)>
Conformal coating should maintain a barrier between the components
and the encapsulant.
I imagine the mortar/cement/concrete will be installed with all
of the above in mind. I can't protect against folks who don't
know how to handle the material. I just want to drop something
in while they are "doing their thing".
If the material isn't suited to the environment in which it is
deployed, then that's not my problem, either.
Adds a step:
- pot in epoxy
- and THEN place potted item in mortar/cement/concrete
And, makes the potted device arguably larger (than just
a conformal coat would).
I'm trying to see if that first step can be eliminated
and that second issue avoided.
On 31/05/2026 19:49, Don Y wrote:
On 5/31/2026 10:59 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2026 07:16:49 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of?ÿ Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
Concrete shrinks during curing.ÿ You can buy thermally stable concrete
(hydraulic cement) which is fairly stable.ÿ There are many factors
that affect the amount of expansion or shrinkage.ÿ This might help:
<https://www.terrayamaken.com/en/understanding-plastic-shrinkage- cracking-
in-concrete/>
I only care to the extent that shrinkage alters the mechanical
characteristics of the "potted" devices.ÿ I don't imagine their
presence will materially affect the behavior of the encapsulant,
itself.
Other things to worry about:
- Air bubbles from outgassing.ÿ That's why vibrators are used in
concrete foundation construction.
- Shrinkage during curing which will cause cracks.
- High water content (about 50% water) in concrete will corrode
components.
- High water content (about 50% water) can expand and crack concrete
when frozen.ÿ The water can also turn to vapor when heated above 100C
causing spalling.
- Chlorine (salt water) contamination will corrode copper.
- Lack of adhesion to components will produce a cavity for water to
collect.
Conformal coating should maintain a barrier between the components
and the encapsulant.
I imagine the mortar/cement/concrete will be installed with all
of the above in mind.ÿ I can't protect against folks who don't
know how to handle the material.ÿ I just want to drop something
in while they are "doing their thing".
If the material isn't suited to the environment in which it is
deployed, then that's not my problem, either.
Instead of reinventing the wheel, perhaps you should consider using
epoxy, urethane or silicone potting compounds.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potting_(electronics)>
Adds a step:
- pot in epoxy
- and THEN place potted item in mortar/cement/concrete
And, makes the potted device arguably larger (than just
a conformal coat would).
I'm trying to see if that first step can be eliminated
and that second issue avoided.
Don't expose electronic components to cement or concrete.
It is almost certain to cause problems.ÿ I think that
encapsulating your circuit in silicone rubber will protect
in two ways.
1) Its flexibility will reduce the mechanical stress on the
components.
2)ÿ It will isolate them from ionic contaminants which would
otherwise either cause electrical leakage paths or cause
corrosion - or both.
What it will not do is prevent water from getting to your circuit.
So long as the circuit is VERY clean before encapsulation
this is not a problem.
All polymers are permeable to water vapour.ÿ However, if the
encapsulated surface is very clean this will not condense
to liquid water and there will not be any problem.
If, on the other hand, there is a little salt on the
surface of the encapsulated component, perhaps from a
fingerprint, a tiny blister of salty water will form.
Osmosis will then drive water vapour through the polymer
in the direction of that salty blister which will then get
bigger.ÿ You will end up with a component surrounded with
slightly salty water which will not be a good environment
for your circuit.
The bottom line is:ÿ Make your circuit very clean.ÿ Washing
with recirculated deionised water for many hours will do this.
Encapsulate with silicone rubber.ÿ If you use the type that
evolves acetic acid, allow plenty of time for this to diffuse
out before doing anything else.
If you want to see references to the original research on this
which related to medical implants I can dig them out...
On Sun, 31 May 2026 11:49:35 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 5/31/2026 10:59 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2026 07:16:49 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of? Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
Concrete shrinks during curing. You can buy thermally stable concrete
(hydraulic cement) which is fairly stable. There are many factors
that affect the amount of expansion or shrinkage. This might help:
<https://www.terrayamaken.com/en/understanding-plastic-shrinkage-cracking-in-concrete/>
I only care to the extent that shrinkage alters the mechanical
characteristics of the "potted" devices. I don't imagine their
presence will materially affect the behavior of the encapsulant,
itself.
Other things to worry about:
- Air bubbles from outgassing. That's why vibrators are used in
concrete foundation construction.
- Shrinkage during curing which will cause cracks.
- High water content (about 50% water) in concrete will corrode
components.
- High water content (about 50% water) can expand and crack concrete
when frozen. The water can also turn to vapor when heated above 100C
causing spalling.
- Chlorine (salt water) contamination will corrode copper.
- Lack of adhesion to components will produce a cavity for water to
collect.
Conformal coating should maintain a barrier between the components
and the encapsulant.
I imagine the mortar/cement/concrete will be installed with all
of the above in mind. I can't protect against folks who don't
know how to handle the material. I just want to drop something
in while they are "doing their thing".
If the material isn't suited to the environment in which it is
deployed, then that's not my problem, either.
Yes it is. If the drop-in item is potted with a rigid material, and
then embedded in a rigid cement, the stresses and strains in the
cement will crack the item.
If the item must be drop-in, its "conformal" coat must be thick and
softish, and is most easily molded or cast in a thin shell. As
mentioned later [1], Polyurethane potting is likely to be suitable.
It would also be useful to include a thermocouple or thermistor in the
item, so the actual temperature can be measured versus guessed.
Adds a step:
- pot in epoxy
- and THEN place potted item in mortar/cement/concrete
And, makes the potted device arguably larger (than just
a conformal coat would).
I'm trying to see if that first step can be eliminated
and that second issue avoided.
Not clear. How big are these concrete things? If they are tiny, just
make it all urethane potting.
On Sun, 31 May 2026 11:49:35 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
Conformal coating should maintain a barrier between the components
and the encapsulant.
That depends on the composition and thickness of your conformal
coating. If the coating is brittle, it might crumble or crack. If it flexes, it might tear. If the coating has bubbles or gaps, you might
end up with a biological reactor.
Full disclosure: I used to design marine radios. The art of
protecting electronics from the environment is not simple or obvious.
Most of the horror stories are true. I also worked as an "assistant embalmer" (which meant I mostly swept the floor) when I was in high
skool. I didn't have any contact with the corpses but did get to
watch the procedures. If you plan to bury something that is conformal
coated in concrete, it might be wise to first consult the applicable
state laws and regulations or at least consult a mortuary for burial
advice.
Hint: Make sure that whatever it is you're burying is legally dead
before proceeding. The un-dead have been known to inconveniently rise
to the occasion at inconvenient times.
If the material isn't suited to the environment in which it is
deployed, then that's not my problem, either.
That's called littering. I suggest you dispose of the incompatible
material in an environmentally correct manner.
On 5/31/2026 2:24 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2026 11:49:35 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
Conformal coating should maintain a barrier between the components
and the encapsulant.
That depends on the composition and thickness of your conformal
coating. If the coating is brittle, it might crumble or crack. If it
flexes, it might tear. If the coating has bubbles or gaps, you might
end up with a biological reactor.
Full disclosure: I used to design marine radios. The art of
protecting electronics from the environment is not simple or obvious.
Yes, I designed LORAN receivers, plotters and autopilots. I am
well aware of what salt spray can do to kit -- in very short order.
[If you've ever seen wrought iron railings on houses/structures
"near the beach", this is very dramatic!]
Most of the horror stories are true. I also worked as an "assistant
embalmer" (which meant I mostly swept the floor) when I was in high
skool. I didn't have any contact with the corpses but did get to
watch the procedures. If you plan to bury something that is conformal
coated in concrete, it might be wise to first consult the applicable
state laws and regulations or at least consult a mortuary for burial
advice.
My B-in-L was an embalmer. Kinda creepy but someone has to do it.
Hint: Make sure that whatever it is you're burying is legally dead
before proceeding. The un-dead have been known to inconveniently rise
to the occasion at inconvenient times.
If the material isn't suited to the environment in which it is
deployed, then that's not my problem, either.
That's called littering. I suggest you dispose of the incompatible
material in an environmentally correct manner.
If the device is embedded in another device and the other device fails,
then it's not "litter" but "debris".
On Sun, 31 May 2026 16:31:24 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 5/31/2026 2:24 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2026 11:49:35 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
Conformal coating should maintain a barrier between the components
and the encapsulant.
That depends on the composition and thickness of your conformal
coating. If the coating is brittle, it might crumble or crack. If it
flexes, it might tear. If the coating has bubbles or gaps, you might
end up with a biological reactor.
Full disclosure: I used to design marine radios. The art of
protecting electronics from the environment is not simple or obvious.
Yes, I designed LORAN receivers, plotters and autopilots. I am
well aware of what salt spray can do to kit -- in very short order.
I worked for Intech Inc, Santa Clara at SJC airport. In 9.5 years, I
helped design a 27MHz pager (yech), AN/SRD-21 VHF homer, AN/SRD-22 VHF Doppler DF, VHF "sign post" vehicle locator, various 1.6 to 30MHz SSB transceivers, various HF power amps, some minor test equipment, some
UHF SCADA transceivers for SoCal Edison, and probably some other stuff
that I can't excavate from my failing memory. (Note that I did not
design the entire transceiver). For the military direction finders,
passing the MIL-STD-810 salt fog test was difficult. <https://keystonecompliance.com/mil-std-810/salt-fog/>
Much later, I somehow ended up doing damage control on various
consumer electronics designs. There were some devices environmental problems. Typically, the culprit was a high impedance design, where a
small amount of water would literally short PCB traces or components. Sometimes, the high impedances were necessary, but recalculating the components to lower impedances usually solved the problems. The lower impedance also helped the device survive in a high humidity and/or
moisture condensing environment.
[If you've ever seen wrought iron railings on houses/structures
"near the beach", this is very dramatic!]
At various times, I've resided in the "fog belt" near the ocean. I
don't recall seeing any wrought iron hand railing. As I vaguely
recall, the hand rails were redwood with layers of sealer, stain or
paint.
Most of the horror stories are true. I also worked as an "assistant
embalmer" (which meant I mostly swept the floor) when I was in high
skool. I didn't have any contact with the corpses but did get to
watch the procedures. If you plan to bury something that is conformal
coated in concrete, it might be wise to first consult the applicable
state laws and regulations or at least consult a mortuary for burial
advice.
My B-in-L was an embalmer. Kinda creepy but someone has to do it.
As long as he doesn't try to raise the dead, he'll be ok. I found the relatives of the deceased to be far more creepy than the staff. The
TV show "The Addams Family" was probably their template.
Hint: Make sure that whatever it is you're burying is legally dead
before proceeding. The un-dead have been known to inconveniently rise
to the occasion at inconvenient times.
If the material isn't suited to the environment in which it is
deployed, then that's not my problem, either.
That's called littering. I suggest you dispose of the incompatible
material in an environmentally correct manner.
If the device is embedded in another device and the other device fails,
then it's not "litter" but "debris".
When viewed from a distance, there is little difference between litter
and debris.
On 31/05/2026 19:49, Don Y wrote:
On 5/31/2026 10:59 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2026 07:16:49 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
Don't expose electronic components to cement or concrete.
It is almost certain to cause problems.ÿ I think that
encapsulating your circuit in silicone rubber will protect
in two ways.
1) Its flexibility will reduce the mechanical stress on the
components.
2)ÿ It will isolate them from ionic contaminants which would
otherwise either cause electrical leakage paths or cause
corrosion - or both.
What it will not do is prevent water from getting to your circuit.
So long as the circuit is VERY clean before encapsulation
this is not a problem.
All polymers are permeable to water vapour.ÿ However, if the
encapsulated surface is very clean this will not condense
to liquid water and there will not be any problem.
If, on the other hand, there is a little salt on the
surface of the encapsulated component, perhaps from a
fingerprint, a tiny blister of salty water will form.
Osmosis will then drive water vapour through the polymer
in the direction of that salty blister which will then get
bigger.ÿ You will end up with a component surrounded with
slightly salty water which will not be a good environment
for your circuit.
On 5/31/2026 7:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2026 16:31:24 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[If you've ever seen wrought iron railings on houses/structures
"near the beach", this is very dramatic!]
At various times, I've resided in the "fog belt" near the ocean.ÿ I
don't recall seeing any wrought iron hand railing.ÿ As I vaguely
recall, the hand rails were redwood with layers of sealer, stain or
paint.
We used to vacation in florida, a few blocks from the sea, each year.
I distinctly recall seeing wrought iron railings (to keep folks
from falling off their porches, etc.) that were *etched* from the
salty air.ÿ "Gee, out wrought iron railings at home don't look like that!"
You have suddenly reminded me of a problem I had with a particular IR
remote control.
The side of the PCB that touched the rubber membrane with the buttons
got wet after few months of usage, and the buttons would not act. I
would disassemble the thing, wash and dry it, and close again, but eventually they thing got wet inside.
I'm not sure if the liquid was slightly oily, though. Long ago.
El 01/06/2026 a las 13:10, Carlos E.R. escribi¢:
You have suddenly reminded me of a problem I had with a particular IR
remote control.
The side of the PCB that touched the rubber membrane with the buttons
got wet after few months of usage, and the buttons would not act. I
would disassemble the thing, wash and dry it, and close again, but
eventually they thing got wet inside.
I'm not sure if the liquid was slightly oily, though. Long ago.
The liquid is silicone grease due to a bad curing of the silicone
membrane, it is like the membrane is sweating. Most used keys are more
prone to fail, as pressing the keys makes the liquid go out, similar to pressing a sponge.
Ethanol will clean this, although it will return in a while (about three months for bad remotes, years for not-so-bad ones).
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of? Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
You have suddenly reminded me of a problem I had with a particular IR remote control.
The side of the PCB that touched the rubber membrane with the buttons got wet
after few months of usage, and the buttons would not act. I would disassemble
the thing, wash and dry it, and close again, but eventually they thing got wet
inside.
I'm not sure if the liquid was slightly oily, though. Long ago.
On 2026-06-01 04:56, Don Y wrote:
On 5/31/2026 7:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2026 16:31:24 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
[If you've ever seen wrought iron railings on houses/structures
"near the beach", this is very dramatic!]
At various times, I've resided in the "fog belt" near the ocean.ÿ I
don't recall seeing any wrought iron hand railing.ÿ As I vaguely
recall, the hand rails were redwood with layers of sealer, stain or
paint.
We used to vacation in florida, a few blocks from the sea, each year.
I distinctly recall seeing wrought iron railings (to keep folks
from falling off their porches, etc.) that were *etched* from the
salty air.ÿ "Gee, out wrought iron railings at home don't look like that!"
My family had a house at a place in Spain called La Manga. It is a long strip
of land between the Mediterranean and a very salty inner sea. In that place, aluminum corroded. Stainless steel got (big) spots. Salty humidity almost like
living in a boat.
On Sun, 31 May 2026 07:16:49 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The presence of lime can push the pH up considerably.
Water migration into packages during curing.
Water wicking into packages via leads during curing.
Increased temperature during curing.
Anything else to be wary of? Is there significant expansion
(or shrinkage) during curing?
Can't imagine why you would want to, but I'd seal the
package in conventional, flexible materials first, to
protect from environment and absorb stress.
Small packages can be inserted into preformed concrete
through drilling and filling processes.
The issue becomes one of remembering *where* such
devices are located (unless you mark them in some
way that isn't similarly poor cosmetically)
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The issue becomes one of remembering *where* such
devices are located (unless you mark them in some
way that isn't similarly poor cosmetically)
Bury a magnet with them and find it with a pocket compass.
I used that method to make a hidden boundary markerwhen I suspected an unscrupulous neighbour might move the visible marker.
On 6/1/2026 12:34 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The issue becomes one of remembering *where* such
devices are located (unless you mark them in some
way that isn't similarly poor cosmetically)
Bury a magnet with them and find it with a pocket compass.
That's a good idea!ÿ In general, I've just been "taking good
measurements".ÿ But, those can get misplaced, over time...
I used that method to make a hidden boundary markerwhen I suspected an
unscrupulous neighbour might move the visible marker.
On 01/06/2026 21:42, Don Y wrote:
On 6/1/2026 12:34 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
The issue becomes one of remembering *where* such
devices are located (unless you mark them in some
way that isn't similarly poor cosmetically)
Bury a magnet with them and find it with a pocket compass.
That's a good idea!ÿ In general, I've just been "taking good
measurements".ÿ But, those can get misplaced, over time...
I used that method to make a hidden boundary markerwhen I suspected an
unscrupulous neighbour might move the visible marker.
Did the neighbour ever move the visible marker?
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