I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a
radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else?

The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a
simple matter (compressed air required!).

--
Jeff


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 3/27/26 11:49 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a
radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else?

The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a simple matter (compressed air required!).

Usually a small coil. You can see it in this tear-down video at 6:30min:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u73oL7rWSmI

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 27/03/2026 19:03, Joerg wrote:

On 3/27/26 11:49 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a
radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else? >>
The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a
simple matter (compressed air required!).

Usually a small coil. You can see it in this tear-down video at 6:30min:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u73oL7rWSmI

Thanks - I hadn't checked YT teardowns. Someone asked a comment about
whether or not the antenna was ferrite cored, but unfortunately it
wasn't answered. At 7.21 in the video there is a close-up and it looks
like there is a ferrite core.

--
Jeff

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 18:49:33 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a
radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else?

Tiny ferrite rod. See Fig 15 <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Lombardi-4/publication/238687976_Radio_Controlled_Clocks/links/54848e2b0cf283750c3707fb/Radio-Controlled-Clocks.pdf>
<https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2422.pdf>

The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a >simple matter (compressed air required!).

Nice of you to not provide the maker and model number of your watch.
So, you get a general answer instead of specifics.

The encoding method changed in about 2012 from AM modulation to phase modulation: <https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2013/03/new-nist-time-code-boost-reception-radio-controlled-clocks>
<https://www.nist.gov/publications/wwvb-time-signal-broadcast-new-enhanced-broadcast-format-and-multi-mode-receiver>
Since both modulation methods were present (not simultaneously), some
receivers had trouble decoding the older AM modulation in the presence
of phase modulation. The usual symptom was that the receiver showed
some data being received but refused to deliver time signals. No easy
fix. Some manufacturers issued notices to their customers. For
example: <https://safran-navigation-timing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Pending-Changes-in-the-WWVB-Radio-Signal-Affects-Precision-Frequency-and-Timing-Reference-1.pdf>

I suggest you check the DoM (date of manufacture) of your unspecified
model watch and see how it was made before or after 2012.

Good luck.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 AE6KS 831-336-2558


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 15:43:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

The encoding method changed in about 2012 from AM modulation to phase >modulation: ><https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2013/03/new-nist-time-code-boost-reception-radio-controlled-clocks>
<https://www.nist.gov/publications/wwvb-time-signal-broadcast-new-enhanced-broadcast-format-and-multi-mode-receiver>

Oops. Bad choice of URL. This is better:

"WWVB Time Signal Broadcast: A New Enhanced Broadcast Format and
Multi-Mode Receiver" <https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=915289>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 AE6KS 831-336-2558


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a >radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF

transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else?

I opened up my Casio radio watch to replace the battery when it was emopty
I do think I noticed a what looks like a small ferrite rod?

But lemme use AI, so typed in Chromium browser:
what sort of antenna does CASIO use in its radio-watches?

That gives this:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+sort+of+antenna+does+CASIO+use+in+its+radio-watches%3F

And then shows:
Casio uses a tiny shock-resistant antenna constructed of an amorphous material in its radio-controlled watches, which enables high-sensitivity reception of standard time radio waves. This design allows the watches to receive time signals from various global transmission stations effectively.
? gshock.casio.com? Wikipedia
Antenna Technology in Casio Radio-Controlled Watches
Casio employs a tiny shock-resistant antenna made from an amorphous material in its radio-controlled watches. This innovative design is crucial for the effective reception of time signals from various global transmission stations.

Key Features of the Antenna
High-Sensitivity Reception: The antenna is designed to capture standard time radio waves with high sensitivity, ensuring accurate timekeeping.
Durability: Its shock-resistant construction allows the antenna to withstand rough conditions, making it suitable for outdoor and rugged use.
Global Compatibility: The antenna enables the watch to receive signals from multiple time transmission stations worldwide, enhancing its functionality and accuracy.
Reception Capabilities
Casio's antenna technology allows watches to synchronize with time signals from various regions, including:

Region Frequency Transmission Station
Japan 40kHz / 60kHz JJY (Fukushima, Kyushu)
North America 60kHz WWVB (Fort Collins)
UK 60kHz MSF (Anthorn)
Germany 77.5kHz DCF77 (Mainflingen)
China 68kHz BPC (Shangqiu)
This advanced antenna technology is a key component of Casio's commitment to providing precise and reliable timekeeping in their radio-controlled watches.

? Wikipedia
? gshock.casio.com
Explore More
?
What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches?
?
How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal reception?
?
What alternative antenna technologies exist for radio-controlled watches?




Google knows everything!

The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a >simple matter (compressed air required!).

I have 2 Casio radio watches, both work great
An older model an a new one a year or so old


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches?
? How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber
strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded
into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better signal-gathering properties.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 27/03/2026 22:43, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 18:49:33 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a
radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else?

Tiny ferrite rod. See Fig 15 <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Lombardi-4/publication/238687976_Radio_Controlled_Clocks/links/54848e2b0cf283750c3707fb/Radio-Controlled-Clocks.pdf>
<https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2422.pdf>

I guess that's the nearest we'll get to something actually stating the
watch (rather than clock) antenna is ferrite, but see my reply to Liz Tuddenham.

The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a
simple matter (compressed air required!).

Nice of you to not provide the maker and model number of your watch.
So, you get a general answer instead of specifics.

You might be sorry you asked about the make and model as it's a long
tale of woe! But since you asked...

The watch is a Junghans Mega Solar Sinus Ceramic, bought new in 2010,
but according to Junghans it was then already seven years old! It went
wrong several times, and I had to have the "movement" replaced after
three years (Junghans expected a 10-year life, which tied in well with
the dates). The purchase turned into a /very/ expensive mistake.
(see model 053/1212.44 at <https://junghansarchiv.de/uploads/2005_02_0005_kleinuhr_b53a7d6bfe.pdf >

Basically, the watch would now and again show an incorrect time and
sometimes date. It could be wrong by a few hours and an odd number of
minutes. I assumed a faulty component decoding the time signal from
DCF77 Mainflingen (about 750km away, so well within range), but wondered
if it was occasional interference overriding the time signal. An
internet search revealed a number of reports of similar incorrect time
showing with Mega Solar watches.

Although this NG is s.e.d, there is only very rare mention of the
"external human interface" part of design. I mention this because the
Junghans watches have a very unusual design, in which interactive
function is stripped down to the utmost simplicity, and therefore fails
if anything unintended happens. The watches have no crowns or fine
adjustment of any sort. All they have is a tiny button on the back,
which can be operated by a ballpoint pen or something similar, and it
only responds in one of three ways. Press for more than 9 seconds, and
the hands rotate to 1200 exactly, where the watch then awaits the next
signal from DCF77. Once it has received that the hands rotate to the
correct CET setting. If the button is pressed for less than 3 seconds,
the hour hand moves forward exactly one hour (as I'm in the UK we're on
CET -1, and it's a pain to set the hour as I have to press the button 23 times!). Press between 3 and 9 seconds and it resets to CET time. That's
it. So, as long as it picks up the time signal correctly, it shows the
time and date accurately.

But what happens when it no longer responds to the time signal? Well,
Junghans thought of that as a temporary issue by having an internal
crystal to control the time if the transmitter was no longer in range.
That internal crystal is pretty accurate - about 2 seconds a month. But
over the almost five years the watch hasn't responded to a signal, it's
now about 2.25 minutes fast. It also displays day and date, and here we
come to an interesting oversight. As I mentioned, Junghans had foreseen
the lack of a time signal when out of range, and as well as the clock
they'd also included a calendar. So the watch "knew" that when it came
to the end of the month, the next date it displayed would be "1" (it
gets the 30 or 31 days for the month correct). However, the calendar
wasn't meant to go past a year, so it didn't include 29 February! Today
the day/date display is showing SAT 29. :-)

The encoding method changed in about 2012 from AM modulation to phase modulation: <https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2013/03/new-nist-time-code-boost-reception-radio-controlled-clocks>
<https://www.nist.gov/publications/wwvb-time-signal-broadcast-new-enhanced-broadcast-format-and-multi-mode-receiver>
Since both modulation methods were present (not simultaneously), some receivers had trouble decoding the older AM modulation in the presence
of phase modulation. The usual symptom was that the receiver showed
some data being received but refused to deliver time signals. No easy
fix. Some manufacturers issued notices to their customers. For
example: <https://safran-navigation-timing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Pending-Changes-in-the-WWVB-Radio-Signal-Affects-Precision-Frequency-and-Timing-Reference-1.pdf>

I suggest you check the DoM (date of manufacture) of your unspecified
model watch and see how it was made before or after 2012.

Well before 2012, but it doesn't use WWVB.

Good luck.

I know that it's radio control is unrepairable.

--
Jeff

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 28/03/2026 07:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >> ܬ How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal >> reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded
into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better signal-gathering properties.

This shows a Junghans watch with a completely different antenna - not
ferrite.
See <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIrqaEOiGWw> at 25 seconds in.

I don't speak German, and can't get the caption autotranslate to work.
Perhaps Jan can help.

--
Jeff

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 3/28/26 07:54, Jan Panteltje wrote:

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a

radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else?

I opened up my Casio radio watch to replace the battery when it was emopty
I do think I noticed a what looks like a small ferrite rod?

But lemme use AI, so typed in Chromium browser:
what sort of antenna does CASIO use in its radio-watches?

That gives this:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+sort+of+antenna+does+CASIO+use+in+its+radio-watches%3F

And then shows:
Casio uses a tiny shock-resistant antenna constructed of an amorphous material in its radio-controlled watches, which enables high-sensitivity reception of standard time radio waves. This design allows the watches to receive time signals from various global transmission stations effectively.
? gshock.casio.com? Wikipedia
Antenna Technology in Casio Radio-Controlled Watches
Casio employs a tiny shock-resistant antenna made from an amorphous material in its radio-controlled watches. This innovative design is crucial for the effective reception of time signals from various global transmission stations.

Key Features of the Antenna
High-Sensitivity Reception: The antenna is designed to capture standard time radio waves with high sensitivity, ensuring accurate timekeeping.
Durability: Its shock-resistant construction allows the antenna to withstand rough conditions, making it suitable for outdoor and rugged use.
Global Compatibility: The antenna enables the watch to receive signals from multiple time transmission stations worldwide, enhancing its functionality and accuracy.
Reception Capabilities
Casio's antenna technology allows watches to synchronize with time signals from various regions, including:

Region Frequency Transmission Station
Japan 40kHz / 60kHz JJY (Fukushima, Kyushu)
North America 60kHz WWVB (Fort Collins)
UK 60kHz MSF (Anthorn)
Germany 77.5kHz DCF77 (Mainflingen)
China 68kHz BPC (Shangqiu)
This advanced antenna technology is a key component of Casio's commitment to providing precise and reliable timekeeping in their radio-controlled watches.

? Wikipedia
? gshock.casio.com
Explore More
?
What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches?
?
How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal reception?
?
What alternative antenna technologies exist for radio-controlled watches?

The AI returns mostly irrelevant babble. Who cares about mechanical
strength and corrosion resistance in a watch antenna core? The relevant properties would be permeability and loss at the operating frequency,
thermal properties, core geometry, maybe some optimal coil parameters,
and how to mitigate the screening effect of nearby metal parts.

I've been playing with some cheap Chinese DCF77 receivers lately.
Cute! Works quite well, but I have to keep them away from my laptop.

Jeroen Belleman


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 3/28/26 08:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >> ܬ How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal >> reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded
into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better signal-gathering properties.

Preventing breakage is a mounting problem. A little bit of resilience
does wonders. Amorphous metal cores are stacks of very thin bits of
quite flexible tape. Razor sharp, but not terribly breakable. The stuff
is made by shooting a jet of molten metal at a rapidly rotating copper
wheel.

Jeroen Belleman

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please>wrote:

On 3/28/26 07:54, Jan Panteltje wrote:

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a

radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else? >>

I opened up my Casio radio watch to replace the battery when it was emopty >> I do think I noticed a what looks like a small ferrite rod?

But lemme use AI, so typed in Chromium browser:
what sort of antenna does CASIO use in its radio-watches?

That gives this:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+sort+of+antenna+does+CASIO+use+in+its+radio-watches%3F

And then shows:
Casio uses a tiny shock-resistant antenna constructed of an amorphous material in its radio-controlled watches, which enables
high-sensitivity reception of standard time radio waves. This design allows the watches to receive time signals from various
global transmission stations effectively.
? gshock.casio.com? Wikipedia
Antenna Technology in Casio Radio-Controlled Watches
Casio employs a tiny shock-resistant antenna made from an amorphous material in its radio-controlled watches. This innovative
design is crucial for the effective reception of time signals from various global transmission stations.

Key Features of the Antenna
High-Sensitivity Reception: The antenna is designed to capture standard time radio waves with high sensitivity, ensuring
accurate timekeeping.
Durability: Its shock-resistant construction allows the antenna to withstand rough conditions, making it suitable for outdoor
and rugged use.
Global Compatibility: The antenna enables the watch to receive signals from multiple time transmission stations worldwide,
enhancing its functionality and accuracy.
Reception Capabilities
Casio's antenna technology allows watches to synchronize with time signals from various regions, including:

Region Frequency Transmission Station
Japan 40kHz / 60kHz JJY (Fukushima, Kyushu)
North America 60kHz WWVB (Fort Collins)
UK 60kHz MSF (Anthorn)
Germany 77.5kHz DCF77 (Mainflingen)
China 68kHz BPC (Shangqiu)
This advanced antenna technology is a key component of Casio's commitment to providing precise and reliable timekeeping in
their radio-controlled watches.

? Wikipedia
? gshock.casio.com
Explore More
?
What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >> ?
How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal reception?
?
What alternative antenna technologies exist for radio-controlled watches?

The AI returns mostly irrelevant babble. Who cares about mechanical
strength and corrosion resistance in a watch antenna core?

I do, there was some water / moisture in it one day.

The relevant
properties would be permeability and loss at the operating frequency,
thermal properties, core geometry, maybe some optimal coil parameters,
and how to mitigate the screening effect of nearby metal parts.

As a kid I build MW AM crystal radios with a ferrite rod as antenna
At these low frequencies like DCF77 it is the only option, a ferrite rod with lots of turns.
I have a Xiron DCF77 desk / alarm clock too,
perfect time keeping, runs years on a simple Eneloop AA battery without recharge:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/GPS_clock_free_running_versus_radio_clock_IMG_4394.JPG
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/
And, there is GPS time too, simple GPS module connected to my navigation system, and here in my Geiger counter:
In my navigation system:
xgpspc_5_planes.gif
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html
Can chose from 2 satellite systems.. just a button press away..

For more local precision I have a Rubidium 10 MHz reference.
https://panteltje.nl/pub/FPGA_board_with_25MHz_VCXO_locked_to_rubidium_10MHz_reference_IMG_3724.GIF

I've been playing with some cheap Chinese DCF77 receivers lately.
Cute! Works quite well, but I have to keep them away from my laptop.

I have GPS problems now my neighbor installed solar panels
Scope probe free in air shows switching frequency spikes.
Even magnetic compass goes haywire ...

Anyways I do have an old mechanical alarm clock somewhere too.
And the church tower about a mile away lets you know every 30 minutes that time flies...

Do you have a doomsday clock there at CERN?
beep beep beep

When I find myself in times of trouble
my computah beeps to me
Beeping sounds of wisdom
let it beep let it beep
Let it beep let it beep let it beep let it beep
Beeping sounds of wisdom let it beep beep beep


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Jeff Layman <jeff@invalid.invalid>wrote:

On 28/03/2026 07:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >>> ܬ How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal >>> reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber
strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded
into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better
signal-gathering properties.

This shows a Junghans watch with a completely different antenna - not >ferrite.
See <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIrqaEOiGWw> at 25 seconds in.

Google says:
The time can be set using the Junghans MEGA app. The dial of each watch is protected by sapphire
refers to:
https://cjwatchstore.com/junghans-spektrum-mega-solar-18-1425-44/

I think that is still a ferrite antenna with a lot of turns.

Bit expensive it is!

Mine is not solar powered but will run for about 2 years on a cheap battery, easy to replace (with the right scewdriver)
https://www.casio.com/europe/watches/casio/waveceptor/
I have a WV-200RD-1A and a WV-58R-1A


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 18:49:33 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a
radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else?

The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a >simple matter (compressed air required!).

Everybody has a cell phone now, so why have a watch?

Are the WWV rf and vlf stations still transmitting?


John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 28/03/2026 16:19, john larkin wrote:

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 18:49:33 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a
radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they
extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else? >>
The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a
simple matter (compressed air required!).

Everybody has a cell phone now, so why have a watch?

I often forget my phone, but never my watch.

Are the WWV rf and vlf stations still transmitting?

Indeed. See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station)>

--
Jeff

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 07:42:46 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >> ? How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal
reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber >strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded
into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better >signal-gathering properties.

The amorphus magnetic materia mentioned earlierl is a metallic ribbon,
and is not brittle.

Joe

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 18:49:33 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> >wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a >>radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they >>extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else? >>
The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a >>simple matter (compressed air required!).

Everybody has a cell phone now, so why have a watch?

Not every body has a cellphone, some are even out of range of cellphone towers. And cellphones get their time from the network,

The watch (here) from DCF77 that has a very wide range

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77
scroll down to 'reception area'

When doing navigation at sea without GPS and a sextant precise time comes in handy too.
Especially with all the GPS jamming going on.
I have a simple one:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/davis_sextant_IMG_6556.JPG

Also you perhaps do not always want to carry the cellphone with you, be tracked.

Are the WWV rf and vlf stations still transmitting?

Yes, WWV is still transmitting and continues to broadcast time and frequency information 24/7. It is operated by the U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
and has been in operation since 1919.

I can select world areas on my watch.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 09:19:50 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 18:49:33 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a >>radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they >>extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else? >>
The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a >>simple matter (compressed air required!).

Everybody has a cell phone now, so why have a watch?

- The watch is more convenient and doesn't require searching for where
I put the phone.
- I can't read the smartphone display in bright sunlight.
- The wrist watch is generally cheaper (except for collectors
watches).
- Fashion statement.
- Apple watch acts as a display and ringer for the iPhone.
- Apple watch can be uses as a heart rate and blood pressure monitor.

Are the WWV rf and vlf stations still transmitting?

Yes. WWVB (60KHz) was operating at reduced power from Apr 7, 2024
through Oct 11, 2024 due to the very large transmit antenna falling
apart. The drop in signal level was noticeable, but not catastrophic.
My various receivers continued to reliably synchronize to WWVB at the
time of night when signals were strongest. My various cheap watches
and clocks required carefully positioning the watch for maximum signal strength.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_R7tHUArEI> (1:01) <https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb

WWVB outages: <https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb/wwvb-station-outages>

Having WWVB operate at reduced signal strength for 6 months inspired a
number of rumors that WWVB was off the air. A few months earlier
there were rumors that federal funding would be lost because the low
and medium frequency time clock services had become obsolete because
satellite based services (GPS) had replaced them. For example, a GPS
based bicycle computer which could be used as an oversized wristwatch. <https://www.cycplus.com/products/cycplus-mini-cycling-gps-bicycle-computer>



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 AE6KS 831-336-2558


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 11:03:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 09:19:50 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 18:49:33 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> >>wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a >>>radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF >>>transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite >>>searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they >>>extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else? >>>
The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to >>>sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a >>>simple matter (compressed air required!).

Everybody has a cell phone now, so why have a watch?

- The watch is more convenient and doesn't require searching for where
I put the phone.

There aren't any public pay phones any more, so without a cell phone
you are out of touch.

- I can't read the smartphone display in bright sunlight.

- The wrist watch is generally cheaper (except for collectors
watches).

OK, you save money by not having a phone.

- Fashion statement.

Oh.

- Apple watch acts as a display and ringer for the iPhone.
- Apple watch can be uses as a heart rate and blood pressure monitor.

I talk on my phone maybe a minute per day, mostly to coordinate with
Mo. I use it a lot more as a camera and an RPN calculator, and
occasionally as a clock and stopwatch.

It does run the Google Home app for the cam and thermostat at the
cabin.

The maps are handy, once in a while. Remember when you had to buy a
map at a gas station?

I never text. That seems to be a sick addiction.

Yesterday a plumber climbed up into our crawl space at work and aimed
his phone at the label on the water heater. The phone read the maker
and serial number and told him that it was made 27 years ago. I
expect it might leak soon.

Are the WWV rf and vlf stations still transmitting?

Yes. WWVB (60KHz) was operating at reduced power from Apr 7, 2024
through Oct 11, 2024 due to the very large transmit antenna falling
apart. The drop in signal level was noticeable, but not catastrophic.
My various receivers continued to reliably synchronize to WWVB at the
time of night when signals were strongest. My various cheap watches
and clocks required carefully positioning the watch for maximum signal >strength.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_R7tHUArEI> (1:01) ><https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb

WWVB outages: ><https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-distribution/radio-station-wwvb/wwvb-station-outages>

Having WWVB operate at reduced signal strength for 6 months inspired a
number of rumors that WWVB was off the air. A few months earlier
there were rumors that federal funding would be lost because the low
and medium frequency time clock services had become obsolete because >satellite based services (GPS) had replaced them. For example, a GPS
based bicycle computer which could be used as an oversized wristwatch. ><https://www.cycplus.com/products/cycplus-mini-cycling-gps-bicycle-computer>

John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 13:01:56 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 07:42:46 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >>> ? How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal >>> reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber >>strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded >>into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better >>signal-gathering properties.

The amorphus magnetic materia mentioned earlierl is a metallic ribbon,
and is not brittle.

Joe

Nano-crystaline amorphous metals are notoriously brittle, particularly
if thickness is small enough to operate with low loss at higher
frequencies.

RL

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 07:42:46 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >> ? How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal
reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber >strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded
into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better >signal-gathering properties.

The industry uses the term amorphous with no rigour.

By definition it describes only a 'mixture' of materials. These
could have magnetic or other properies.

Most compressed dust cores meet this definition, as they depend
on chemical binders and fillers to establish magnetic density
and mechanical integrity.

It has also been used to describe bonded magnetic particles
in flexible media, treated during the curing process for
particle polar alignment or other useful characteristics.

The term has recently been used to describe alloyed metal strips,
for no apparent reason, other than to describe a mixture of
components in the alloy - something that has always been taken
for granted.

RL

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 09:19:50 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 18:49:33 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a >>radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF
transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite
searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they >>extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else? >>
The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to
sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a >>simple matter (compressed air required!).

Everybody has a cell phone now, so why have a watch?

Are the WWV rf and vlf stations still transmitting?

John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics

It's hands-free, quicker and doesn't suggest to the boss that
you're dog-fucking on the job.

RL

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 3/29/26 18:09, legg wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 13:01:56 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 07:42:46 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >>>> ܬ How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal >>>> reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber
strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded
into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better >>> signal-gathering properties.

The amorphus magnetic materia mentioned earlierl is a metallic ribbon,
and is not brittle.

Joe

Nano-crystaline amorphous metals are notoriously brittle, particularly
if thickness is small enough to operate with low loss at higher
frequencies.

RL

Yes, brittle they are. Nevertheless, they're flexible enough to
wind them into small toroids. I've used thousands of those, so
I'm somewhat familiar with the stuff.

Jeroen Belleman

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 12:24:30 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 07:42:46 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >>> ? How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal >>> reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber >>strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded >>into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better >>signal-gathering properties.

The industry uses the term amorphous with no rigour.

By definition it describes only a 'mixture' of materials. These
could have magnetic or other properies.

Most compressed dust cores meet this definition, as they depend
on chemical binders and fillers to establish magnetic density
and mechanical integrity.

It has also been used to describe bonded magnetic particles
in flexible media, treated during the curing process for
particle polar alignment or other useful characteristics.

The term has recently been used to describe alloyed metal strips,
for no apparent reason, other than to describe a mixture of
components in the alloy - something that has always been taken
for granted.

In industry, _amorphous_ has a precise meaning when speaking of
metallic alloys, that there is no crystalline structure, that it has
the (lack of) structure of a glass. So it's brittle but quite
flexible if thin. So if a piece of such strip is bedded in something
soft and flexible, the strip can be quite resistant to shock and
vibration.

Joe

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 13:15:32 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 12:24:30 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 07:42:46 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >>>> ? How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal >>>> reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber >>>strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you >>>dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded >>>into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better >>>signal-gathering properties.

The industry uses the term amorphous with no rigour.

By definition it describes only a 'mixture' of materials. These
could have magnetic or other properies.

Most compressed dust cores meet this definition, as they depend
on chemical binders and fillers to establish magnetic density
and mechanical integrity.

It has also been used to describe bonded magnetic particles
in flexible media, treated during the curing process for
particle polar alignment or other useful characteristics.

The term has recently been used to describe alloyed metal strips,
for no apparent reason, other than to describe a mixture of
components in the alloy - something that has always been taken
for granted.

In industry, _amorphous_ has a precise meaning when speaking of
metallic alloys, that there is no crystalline structure, that it has
the (lack of) structure of a glass. So it's brittle but quite
flexible if thin. So if a piece of such strip is bedded in something
soft and flexible, the strip can be quite resistant to shock and
vibration.

Joe

Right. In electronics, an amorphous magnetic material is a
non-crystalline metal thing that typically has a very high mu. It's
usually in the form of a thin tape that is wound onto a bobbin to form
a torroidal core or supplied as cut cores.


John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 11:31:02 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 11:03:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 09:19:50 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>wrote:

On Fri, 27 Mar 2026 18:49:33 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> >>>wrote:

I have been wondering about what is used as an antenna in a >>>>radio-controlled watch. These receive coded signals from VLF >>>>transmitters which are usually in the 60 - 80kHz range. Despite >>>>searching online, I have yet to find anything definitive. Are they >>>>extremely small ferrite antennas, just a length of wire, or something else? >>>>
The watch I have used to be radio-controlled, but hasn't been able to >>>>sync to the signal for years. I'd have a look inside, but that isn't a >>>>simple matter (compressed air required!).

Everybody has a cell phone now, so why have a watch?

- The watch is more convenient and doesn't require searching for where
I put the phone.

There aren't any public pay phones any more, so without a cell phone
you are out of touch.

I can usually find someone nearby who is willing to loan me their
phone to make a call.

I also have two identical smartphones (Moto G Power 2020). I also
have several blank SIM's. If I misplace the phone I usually use, I
turn on the other phone, call customer service and have them transfer
my phone number to the backup phone. However, there have been
problems with SIM swapping, so I do the transfer online. In the past
6 years, I've only had to do that twice.

- I can't read the smartphone display in bright sunlight.

- The wrist watch is generally cheaper (except for collectors
watches).

OK, you save money by not having a phone.

I might need to buy a watch if the cellular providers decided to
monetize time keeping and require a subscription to have the
smartphone display the time.

- Fashion statement.

Oh.

It's not the watch. The fashion statement is the cost. Surely nobody
buys one of these just to display the time? <https://www.google.com/search?udm=2&q=most%20expensive%20watches>

For those who can't afford overpriced fashion watches, sundial watches
are also available: <https://www.google.com/search?q=wrist%20watch%20sundial&num=10&udm=2>

- Apple watch acts as a display and ringer for the iPhone.
- Apple watch can be uses as a heart rate and blood pressure monitor.

I talk on my phone maybe a minute per day, mostly to coordinate with
Mo.

I currently average 5 voice calls per day. Most are incoming calls.
The calls tend to be rather long (about 15 to 30 mins) because the
involve walking someone through a computer related problem. For voice
calls, I could easily survive without owning a voice phone because
most of my calls involve an exchange of data. If someone would make a
"Wi-Fi data only" phone, I might consider buying one. My most used
program on my smartphone is Solitaire+. So far, I haven't found a
wristwatch that plays Solitaire.

I use it a lot more as a camera and an RPN calculator, and
occasionally as a clock and stopwatch.

Same here. The convenience of having everything I do concentrated in
one device is convenient, efficient, economical and compelling. I
have some film and digital cameras, but I rarely use them. I have an
HP41CX calculator and HP41 emulators for my smartphones, desktops and
laptops. Oddly, I reach for the actual calculator instead of the
emulators, even when the various emulators are available. I tend to
use whatever I learned to use first. I don't use the stopwatch, but
do use the alarm and timer functions daily. With AI, the smartphone
could probably be usable without the keyboard and display, and replace
them with speech input and output.

It does run the Google Home app for the cam and thermostat at the
cabin.

I have a number of smart devices that use the smartphone as a display
and control device. However, the various devices all have very
different display and control software. Compared to what is available
today, they're all old and obsolete. For example, my Amazon Echo is
the first generation model. I've been thinking about assembling a
home server, mostly to avoid mandatory cloud services and the monthly subscription fees. Home Assistant seems to be usable: <https://www.home-assistant.io>

The maps are handy, once in a while.

Agreed. However, I usually print the required maps on my home
computer before leaving. I don't want to be looking at the small
screen while driving. Printed maps are larger and easier to read.
However, when traffic comes to standstill, I check Google Maps for the
traffic situation. Unfortunately, I demonstrated to friends and
customers how Google Maps is used to predict traffic. I've also shown
them how check for fire and construction related traffic problems.
However, instead of using their smartphones and my cheat sheets to
obtain the information, they call me on the phone at home and ask me
to look it up on my computer for them. Instead of upgrading my
smartphone, perhaps I should upgrade my choice of friends?

Remember when you had to buy a map at a gas station?

Yes. I still have a box of such road maps buried somewhere in my
mess. When I was very young, I became the designated navigator for
family road trips. I would track where we were on the maps and
provide turn by turn instructions. Tracking our location was easy
enough, but providing the proper turning instructions were quite
difficult for someone who was too young to drive a car. I did badly,
but survived.

I live in a forest where most of the roads were originally logging
trails. At various times, the county had plans to build new roads.
These were documented and for reasons unknown, were entered into the
official county maps. When MapQuest, various GPS maps and Google Maps
arrived, I attempted to have the non-existent roads removed from their
maps. I failed and eventually gave up. Today, I edit the maps, print
color copies, and distribute them as needed.

I never text. That seems to be a sick addiction.

Everyone seems to be polarized on the use and value of text messaging.
I have to deal with both extremes. One person does everything by text messaging, avoids voice calls and hates email. Another is the
opposite. I tell my customers "Use whatever you want. If you don't
get an answer, try another method or phone number".

Yesterday a plumber climbed up into our crawl space at work and aimed
his phone at the label on the water heater. The phone read the maker
and serial number and told him that it was made 27 years ago. I
expect it might leak soon.

I replaced my electric water heater after the earthquake in 1989. That
would be 37 years old. It's still running today possibly because I've pre-emptively replaced the (aluminum) anode rod 2 or 3 times and have
randomly drained the tank to prevent calcium carbonate build up. I
don't know how long a recently manufactured tank will last, but I
suspect it will be much less.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 AE6KS 831-336-2558


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 18:34:22 -0000 (UTC), Niocl?s P?l Caile?n de
Ghloucester <thanks-to@Taf.com> wrote:

|---------------------------------------------|
|"There aren't any public pay phones any more"| >|---------------------------------------------|

False, but there are few public pay phones.
(S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)

Rumors, announcing the demise of public pay phones, have been greatly exaggerated:

California pay phones:
<https://www.payphone-directory.org/payca.html> <https://www.payphone-project.com/numbers/usa/CA/>
More of the same:
<https://www.payphone-directory.org/> <https://www.payphone-project.com/numbers/>

For a time, I was the self-appointed maintainer of the local pay
telephone list:
<https://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/crud/slv-payphone.txt>
Notice that several businesses had multiple pay phones. My last entry
was in 1998. Maintaining the list introduced me to some rather
interesting individuals (drug dealers, police officers, private pay
phone vendors, phone hackers, CPUC payphone inspectors, muggers, etc). <https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-04-08/death-of-the-pay-phone> "About a decade ago, there were 27,000 payphones in California, with
2,100 in L.A. County. Now, according to the California Public
Utilities Commission, there are just 2,525 working public payphones
left in the state".

Airports appear to have a good supply of pay phones: <https://www.google.com/search?udm=2&q=airport%20pay%20phones>

There are still businesses that still supply pay telephones: <https://www.ptsproviders.com/phone-services/>



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 AE6KS 831-336-2558


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 11:18:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 11:31:02 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>

[snip]

I have a number of smart devices that use the smartphone as a display
and control device. However, the various devices all have very
different display and control software. Compared to what is available
today, they're all old and obsolete. For example, my Amazon Echo is
the first generation model. I've been thinking about assembling a
home server, mostly to avoid mandatory cloud services and the monthly >subscription fees. Home Assistant seems to be usable: ><https://www.home-assistant.io>

FYI: I'm in the process of acquiring a Network Attached Server in my
home network, which is largely wired (enet, with some WiFi for iPad
and MacOS laptop), precisely to sidestep cloud storage. Will also
implement a Network Print Server.

The NAS will be a Synology DS223 with 12 TB disks powered via an APC
BE600M1 UPS linked via a USB cable.

Joe

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 16:48:39 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 11:18:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 11:31:02 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>

[snip]

I have a number of smart devices that use the smartphone as a display
and control device. However, the various devices all have very
different display and control software. Compared to what is available >>today, they're all old and obsolete. For example, my Amazon Echo is
the first generation model. I've been thinking about assembling a
home server, mostly to avoid mandatory cloud services and the monthly >>subscription fees. Home Assistant seems to be usable: >><https://www.home-assistant.io>

FYI: I'm in the process of acquiring a Network Attached Server in my
home network, which is largely wired (enet, with some WiFi for iPad
and MacOS laptop), precisely to sidestep cloud storage. Will also
implement a Network Print Server.

The NAS will be a Synology DS223 with 12 TB disks powered via an APC
BE600M1 UPS linked via a USB cable.

Thanks. Synology makes good equipment. However, their attempts to
create a captive market by restricting their NAS servers to only
function with disk drives provided by Synology, convinced me to look
elsewhere. This is from 11 months ago: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1COU0ZpLQU> (15:32)
I'm told that Synology changed their policy but I haven't found any
evidence of that online. You might want to double check the current
situation before proceeding.

I'm slowly building my NAS from available Linux software and whatever
hardware I can find. It's currently running ZimaOS (formerly CasaOS),
in a ProxMox VM, on my overloaded and underpowered desktop: <https://www.zimaspace.com/zimaos>
It will be a while before I have the time and can afford to turn this development system into a useful appliance.

APC makes good UPS hardware, but if possible, I don't want to use a
UPS. I select (or modify) my hardware to run on battery power from
various DC voltages. At this time, most of my communications hardware
(modem, router, ethernet switches, Roku, phones, weather station, ham
radio, ADS/B receivers, battery recharge station, etc) are all running
on DC power. The batteries are currently a mix of LiFePO4,
lithium-ion and AGM batteries with a few buck/boost converters mixed
in for odd voltages. However, the various computers are all running
on UPS power supplies. Eventually, it will be all DC backup and no
hopefully, no UPS's.

Good luck with your NAS project.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 AE6KS 831-336-2558


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 15:13:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 16:48:39 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 11:18:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 11:31:02 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> >>[snip]

I have a number of smart devices that use the smartphone as a display
and control device. However, the various devices all have very
different display and control software. Compared to what is available >>>today, they're all old and obsolete. For example, my Amazon Echo is
the first generation model. I've been thinking about assembling a
home server, mostly to avoid mandatory cloud services and the monthly >>>subscription fees. Home Assistant seems to be usable: >>><https://www.home-assistant.io>

FYI: I'm in the process of acquiring a Network Attached Server in my
home network, which is largely wired (enet, with some WiFi for iPad
and MacOS laptop), precisely to sidestep cloud storage. Will also >>implement a Network Print Server.

The NAS will be a Synology DS223 with 12 TB disks powered via an APC >>BE600M1 UPS linked via a USB cable.

Thanks. Synology makes good equipment. However, their attempts to
create a captive market by restricting their NAS servers to only
function with disk drives provided by Synology, convinced me to look >elsewhere. This is from 11 months ago: ><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1COU0ZpLQU> (15:32)
I'm told that Synology changed their policy but I haven't found any
evidence of that online. You might want to double check the current >situation before proceeding.

Look on Synology's Compatibility List page.

On Amazon there are lots of decoys, so ensure that the model number
matches *exactly*. And Amazon oddly rates NAS units with disks as
having the total capacity of both disks, ignoring that fact that this
is a RAID system, so the capacity is that of one disk alone, not their
sum.

Could not get 12 or 14 TB, so got 10 TB instead.

I ordered everything yesterday, with delivery today.

I'm slowly building my NAS from available Linux software and whatever >hardware I can find. It's currently running ZimaOS (formerly CasaOS),
in a ProxMox VM, on my overloaded and underpowered desktop: ><https://www.zimaspace.com/zimaos>
It will be a while before I have the time and can afford to turn this >development system into a useful appliance.

APC makes good UPS hardware, but if possible, I don't want to use a
UPS. I select (or modify) my hardware to run on battery power from
various DC voltages. At this time, most of my communications hardware >(modem, router, ethernet switches, Roku, phones, weather station, ham
radio, ADS/B receivers, battery recharge station, etc) are all running
on DC power. The batteries are currently a mix of LiFePO4,
lithium-ion and AGM batteries with a few buck/boost converters mixed
in for odd voltages. However, the various computers are all running
on UPS power supplies. Eventually, it will be all DC backup and no >hopefully, no UPS's.

I would use your DC powered network equipment approach as well if I
were at your scale. I'm fond of 48-Vdc for such things. The next
higher scale is 300-Vdc. Then there is 1000-Vdc.

Good luck with your NAS project.

Thanks. Likely to be a learning experience.

Joe

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 13:15:32 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 12:24:30 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 07:42:46 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches? >>>> ? How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal >>>> reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber >>>strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you >>>dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded >>>into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better >>>signal-gathering properties.

The industry uses the term amorphous with no rigour.

By definition it describes only a 'mixture' of materials. These
could have magnetic or other properies.

Most compressed dust cores meet this definition, as they depend
on chemical binders and fillers to establish magnetic density
and mechanical integrity.

It has also been used to describe bonded magnetic particles
in flexible media, treated during the curing process for
particle polar alignment or other useful characteristics.

The term has recently been used to describe alloyed metal strips,
for no apparent reason, other than to describe a mixture of
components in the alloy - something that has always been taken
for granted.

In industry, _amorphous_ has a precise meaning when speaking of
metallic alloys, that there is no crystalline structure, that it has
the (lack of) structure of a glass. So it's brittle but quite
flexible if thin. So if a piece of such strip is bedded in something
soft and flexible, the strip can be quite resistant to shock and
vibration.

Joe

While metals are usually associated with ductile properies, alloys
are created to increase strength and rigidity - also brittleness.

In nanocrystaline alloys, the crystal structure of an alloy's particle
is recognized, however: the manufacturing method attempts to
distribute these particles in a disordered form - hence the
improper use of the amorphous term (see the dictionary).

These brittle materials' magnetic properties suffer if deformed after
mrf and so tend to be created in as close-to-end-use form as is
possible. Machining, as with glass, is difficult.

Toroidal shapes formed by strip rolls can lose a half order of
magnitude in permeability, simply due to later coil-winding
pressure, or end-use mounting forces.

The simplest physical demonstration of the material's mechanical
properties is to crush an 'amobead' with pliers. These depend on
a thin epoxy coating for mechanical integrity. Larger parts will
have a plastic or metal/fibre casing, with mechanical buffering
properties.

RL

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Der legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 13:15:32 -0400, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2026 12:24:30 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 07:42:46 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

[...]

What are the benefits of using a shock-resistant antenna in Casio watches?
??? How does the amorphous material in Casio antennas enhance radio signal
reception?

Could it be some sort of rubber-based ferrite (like the magnetic rubber >>>> strips around fridge doors)? Ordinary ferrite might shatter if you
dropped the watch but rubber ferrite woudn't - it could also be moulded >>>> into a shape that would better fit the watch case or perhaps have better >>>> signal-gathering properties.

The industry uses the term amorphous with no rigour.

By definition it describes only a 'mixture' of materials. These
could have magnetic or other properies.

Most compressed dust cores meet this definition, as they depend
on chemical binders and fillers to establish magnetic density
and mechanical integrity.

It has also been used to describe bonded magnetic particles
in flexible media, treated during the curing process for
particle polar alignment or other useful characteristics.

The term has recently been used to describe alloyed metal strips,
for no apparent reason, other than to describe a mixture of
components in the alloy - something that has always been taken
for granted.

In industry, _amorphous_ has a precise meaning when speaking of
metallic alloys, that there is no crystalline structure, that it has
the (lack of) structure of a glass. So it's brittle but quite
flexible if thin. So if a piece of such strip is bedded in something
soft and flexible, the strip can be quite resistant to shock and
vibration.

Joe

While metals are usually associated with ductile properies, alloys
are created to increase strength and rigidity - also brittleness.

In nanocrystaline alloys, the crystal structure of an alloy's particle
is recognized, however: the manufacturing method attempts to
distribute these particles in a disordered form - hence the
improper use of the amorphous term (see the dictionary).

These brittle materials' magnetic properties suffer if deformed after
mrf and so tend to be created in as close-to-end-use form as is
possible. Machining, as with glass, is difficult.

Toroidal shapes formed by strip rolls can lose a half order of
magnitude in permeability, simply due to later coil-winding
pressure, or end-use mounting forces.

The simplest physical demonstration of the material's mechanical
properties is to crush an 'amobead' with pliers. These depend on
a thin epoxy coating for mechanical integrity. Larger parts will
have a plastic or metal/fibre casing, with mechanical buffering
properties.

RL

The difference between nanocrystalline and amorphous solids is very real.
It shows up unambiguously in xray crystallography.

As I recall, in amorphous form the peaks due to second-nearest neighbors
are smeared out and more distant ones basically go away.

In powdered amorphous form, even the nearest neighbor peaks can disappear.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Yes, a ferrite rod antenna is widely considered the best practical choice for receiving a 60 kHz plane wave (such as the WWVB or MSF time signals) due to its high selectivity and compact size.
At 60 kHz, a full-sized half-wave dipole would be approximately 2.5 kilometers long, making traditional wire antennas highly impractical for most users.

Why Ferrite Rods Excel at 60 kHz
High Selectivity (Q Factor): Ferrite rods are "sharply tuned" resonant devices. This allows them to reject nearby electrical noise and interference from computers or power supplies that often plague the Very Low Frequency (VLF) band.
Magnetic Field Sensitivity: Unlike wire antennas that respond to the electric field (which is more prone to local noise), ferrite rods respond to the magnetic component of the radio wave.
Compact "Effective Area": The ferrite material concentrates magnetic flux, making a small rod perform like a much larger air-core loop.
Directionality: You can rotate the rod to "null out" local interference or maximize the signal from the transmitter.

-Google AI

--
For full context, visit https://www.electrondepot.com/electrodesign/watch-antenna-4399894-.htm


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 31/03/2026 00:30, someone wrote:

Yes, a ferrite rod antenna is widely considered the best practical choice for receiving a 60 kHz plane wave (such as the WWVB or MSF time signals) due to its high selectivity and compact size.
At 60 kHz, a full-sized half-wave dipole would be approximately 2.5 kilometers long, making traditional wire antennas highly impractical for most users.

Why Ferrite Rods Excel at 60 kHz
High Selectivity (Q Factor): Ferrite rods are "sharply tuned" resonant devices. This allows them to reject nearby electrical noise and interference from computers or power supplies that often plague the Very Low Frequency (VLF) band.
Magnetic Field Sensitivity: Unlike wire antennas that respond to the electric field (which is more prone to local noise), ferrite rods respond to the magnetic component of the radio wave.
Compact "Effective Area": The ferrite material concentrates magnetic flux, making a small rod perform like a much larger air-core loop.
Directionality: You can rotate the rod to "null out" local interference or maximize the signal from the transmitter.

-Google AI

That's what the theory might say, and perhaps in practice too. However,
My watch has shown the "wrong" time in the morning when I looked at it
after being right when I've gone to bed. This is what the Junghans
manual for the watch states:

"Junghans radio-controlled watches synchronise themselves with the DCF
77 time signal transmitter every day. This is done during the night at
02.00 and 03.00 hours. If interference (e.g. from thunderstorms, nearby electrical equipment, light dimmers etc.) makes it impossible for the
time signal to be picked up at the first attempt, the Junghans radio-controlled watch will automatically make further attempts. Time synchronisation can also be carried out manually (e.g. in an area with
better reception conditions) by using the watch?s transmitter call button."

It confirms that reading of the DCF time signal can be interfered with.
What I am unsure about is whether or not the signal can not only be
interfered with so it /cannot/ be read, but /could/ be read from a
source other than DCF 77 and misinterpreted. At least twice I have been wearing the watch during the afternoon and it has shown the wrong time
when I've looked at it (it was correct in the morning). If the watch is supposed to synchronise only between 02.00 and 03.00, why did it change
to the incorrect time during the day?

--
Jeff

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>wrote:

On 31/03/2026 00:30, someone wrote:
Yes, a ferrite rod antenna is widely considered the best practical choice for receiving a 60 kHz plane wave (such as the WWVB
or MSF time signals) due to its high selectivity and compact size.
At 60 kHz, a full-sized half-wave dipole would be approximately 2.5 kilometers long, making traditional wire antennas highly
impractical for most users.

Why Ferrite Rods Excel at 60 kHz
High Selectivity (Q Factor): Ferrite rods are "sharply tuned" resonant devices. This allows them to reject nearby electrical
noise and interference from computers or power supplies that often plague the Very Low Frequency (VLF) band.
Magnetic Field Sensitivity: Unlike wire antennas that respond to the electric field (which is more prone to local noise),
ferrite rods respond to the magnetic component of the radio wave.
Compact "Effective Area": The ferrite material concentrates magnetic flux, making a small rod perform like a much larger
air-core loop.
Directionality: You can rotate the rod to "null out" local interference or maximize the signal from the transmitter.

-Google AI

That's what the theory might say, and perhaps in practice too. However,
My watch has shown the "wrong" time in the morning when I looked at it
after being right when I've gone to bed. This is what the Junghans
manual for the watch states:

"Junghans radio-controlled watches synchronise themselves with the DCF
77 time signal transmitter every day. This is done during the night at
02.00 and 03.00 hours. If interference (e.g. from thunderstorms, nearby >electrical equipment, light dimmers etc.) makes it impossible for the
time signal to be picked up at the first attempt, the Junghans >radio-controlled watch will automatically make further attempts. Time >synchronisation can also be carried out manually (e.g. in an area with >better reception conditions) by using the watch?s transmitter call button."

It confirms that reading of the DCF time signal can be interfered with.
What I am unsure about is whether or not the signal can not only be >interfered with so it /cannot/ be read, but /could/ be read from a
source other than DCF 77 and misinterpreted. At least twice I have been >wearing the watch during the afternoon and it has shown the wrong time
when I've looked at it (it was correct in the morning). If the watch is >supposed to synchronise only between 02.00 and 03.00, why did it change
to the incorrect time during the day?

What I usualy do is enable the watch to get the DCF77 time, check, and then disable 'auto update'.
I do check from time to time, mine are about within 1 second (both my Casio) next day.
My Xiron DCF77 clock is always running / updating, sitting on the table in the living room,
have not seen an error in 10 years...my reference clock!

Sure you can interfere with DCF77, record the time signal and play it back high power ...


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Junghans is an established and excellent brand. My guess is if you want reliable reception, you have to remove it from your wrist at night and place it in a location known to have good reception, just like you do with a tabletop model. Otherwise there's no telling how the internal ferrite rod lines up with transmission orientation. Its axis should be perpendicular to direction of the transmitting tower.

--
For full context, visit https://www.electrondepot.com/electrodesign/watch-antenna-4399894-.htm


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)