• (ReacTor) The Science Behind Torchships

    From James Nicoll@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 23, 2026 14:56:03
    The Science Behind Torchships

    Like a functional health care system in the US, torchships would be
    along any time soon.

    https://reactormag.com/the-science-behind-torchships/
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Christian Weisgerber@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 23, 2026 21:27:22
    On 2026-04-23, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:

    The Science Behind Torchships https://reactormag.com/the-science-behind-torchships/

    | I don?t know why S instead of say, D, or if I did know that once,
    | I forgot.

    I was going to say "Strecke", but that seems an unlikely place for a
    Germanism. Turns out it's from Latin "spatium".

    And I think our American high school physics textbook used d.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Steve Coltrin@3:633/10 to All on Friday, April 24, 2026 08:49:03
    begin fnord
    Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> writes:

    And I think our American high school physics textbook used d.

    I won't say _none_ of my texts (hi skul or collidge) used _d_, but if
    they did I don't remember it. I know at least one of my profs in
    collidge used _s_.

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Friday, April 24, 2026 14:07:06
    Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
    begin fnord
    Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> writes:

    And I think our American high school physics textbook used d.

    I won't say _none_ of my texts (hi skul or collidge) used _d_, but if
    they did I don't remember it. I know at least one of my profs in
    collidge used _s_.

    It may just be the normal conflict between physicists and engineers.

    Physicists, like mathematicians, use i for the imaginary, but engineers use
    j because i is already in use for current.

    Why isn't C used for current? Because C is already in use for charge,
    except when it is for capacitance.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Friday, April 24, 2026 15:19:36
    Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2026-04-23, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:

    The Science Behind Torchships
    https://reactormag.com/the-science-behind-torchships/

    | I don?t know why S instead of say, D, or if I did know that once,
    | I forgot.

    I was going to say "Strecke", but that seems an unlikely place for a Germanism. Turns out it's from Latin "spatium".

    And I think our American high school physics textbook used d.

    We used to see "S" used in our older, British inspired, texts.

    (If you were decent at math our teachers would give you these books to
    work from, as they covered about twice what the official texts did, and
    had much harder problems).

    William Hyde

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Friday, April 24, 2026 14:19:40
    On 4/23/2026 9:56 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
    The Science Behind Torchships

    Like a functional health care system in the US, torchships would be
    along any time soon.

    https://reactormag.com/the-science-behind-torchships/

    The USA healthcare system is incredibly functional. The best in the
    world, no argument there. All of the dictators come here for treatment.

    Paying for the USA healthcare system is incredibly dysfunctional.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Friday, April 24, 2026 23:03:00
    On Thu, 23 Apr 2026 21:27:22 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber wrote:

    And I think our American high school physics textbook used d.

    I think we use ?s? to avoid confusion with ?d? used as the
    differential operator. This matters because a lot of calculus will be
    involved in these calculations.

    How did your ?? textbooks avoid the confusion?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Steve Coltrin@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, April 25, 2026 14:39:32
    begin fnord
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

    Physicists, like mathematicians, use i for the imaginary, but engineers use
    j because i is already in use for current.

    And in physics I never saw anything but V used for voltage, but I've got (radio) engineering books that use E instead - for electromotive force, perhaps.

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 01:24:06
    On Sat, 25 Apr 2026 14:39:32 -0600, Steve Coltrin wrote:

    And in physics I never saw anything but V used for voltage, but I've
    got (radio) engineering books that use E instead - for electromotive
    force, perhaps.

    I have seen electronics texts that used V.

    In physics, E would stand for energy. As in ?E = mcý?. (What symbol
    would you use otherwise?)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Default User@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 05:10:59
    Christian Weisgerber wrote:

    On 2026-04-23, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:

    The Science Behind Torchships https://reactormag.com/the-science-behind-torchships/

    I don?t know why S instead of say, D, or if I did know that once,
    I forgot.

    I was going to say "Strecke", but that seems an unlikely place for a Germanism. Turns out it's from Latin "spatium".

    And I think our American high school physics textbook used d.

    In college Physics 111, the text used x for that. So v = dx/dt, a =
    dv/dt. Given constant a, you can then derive the kinematic equations in
    a reasonably straightforward manner.


    Brian

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 08:37:17
    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    The USA healthcare system is incredibly functional. The best in the
    world, no argument there. All of the dictators come here for treatment.

    Paying for the USA healthcare system is incredibly dysfunctional.

    There's a connection between the two, though.

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill people,
    and it's very good at dealing with the very ill. That's why all those
    very ill dictators come here... but they don't come here until they are
    very ill.

    The other side of the coin is that the American health care system does
    little to prevent people from getting very ill. People are discouraged
    from visiting doctors unless they are very very sick. A friend of mine
    tried to wait out a stomachache until her appendix burst because she did
    not want to pay the copay for the primary care physician's visit. I had
    a skin bump that my primary care physician said might be cancerous... it
    turned out it wasn't which was good because it took nearly a year for me
    to get an appointment with a dermatologist. But if it HAD been cancerous, there is a huge cancer center nearby that specializes in stage-4 cancers.

    But I am in a town with a huge retiree community and a couple of nearby
    cities. Friends out in the western part of the state don't have access
    to hospitals are all; a friend I hang out with at Balticon is an hour and
    a half drive to the nearest hospital, and that hospital is about to close.

    The thing is... it's a lot less expensive to keep people from getting very
    sick than it is to treat them when they are very sick. This is part of
    how the whole "paying for care" and "care itself" things get so tightly
    wound up with one another.

    We have some of the best hospitals and some of the best doctors but yet
    most people don't actually get routine care.

    I was in Sweden a couple years ago and was talking to someone at a bus stop
    and he asked where I was from, and I told him, and he was astonished. "But
    you have all your teeth!" he said. That's how the rest of the world perceives Americans, I fear.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 09:09:51
    Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

    Physicists, like mathematicians, use i for the imaginary, but engineers use >> j because i is already in use for current.

    And in physics I never saw anything but V used for voltage, but I've got >(radio) engineering books that use E instead - for electromotive force, >perhaps.

    Weird. I think of E as a physics thing and V as something everyone else
    uses. Terman uses V!
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From oldernow@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 13:30:25
    On 2026-04-26, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

    The American health care system is ...
    ... the American health care system does ...

    There is no such thing as "the American health
    care system". There are a lot of mentally ill
    people acting in their best interests, and then
    pretending the result is a system because the
    truth requires their looking at the reality
    of their egotic mental illness perpetually
    guaranteeing "we" can't have nice things.

    --
    v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
    | this line was supposed to be clever | ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 08:48:22
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:30:25 -0000 (UTC), oldernow <oldernow@dev.null>
    wrote:

    On 2026-04-26, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

    The American health care system is ...
    ... the American health care system does ...

    There is no such thing as "the American health
    care system". There are a lot of mentally ill
    people acting in their best interests, and then
    pretending the result is a system because the
    truth requires their looking at the reality
    of their egotic mental illness perpetually
    guaranteeing "we" can't have nice things.

    And I never thought I would agree with you about anything.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 09:01:43
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 08:37:17 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:

    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    The USA healthcare system is incredibly functional. The best in the >>world, no argument there. All of the dictators come here for
    treatment.

    Paying for the USA healthcare system is incredibly dysfunctional.

    There's a connection between the two, though.

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill
    people,
    and it's very good at dealing with the very ill. That's why all those
    very ill dictators come here... but they don't come here until they are
    very ill.

    The other side of the coin is that the American health care system does >little to prevent people from getting very ill. People are discouraged
    from visiting doctors unless they are very very sick. A friend of mine
    tried to wait out a stomachache until her appendix burst because she did
    not want to pay the copay for the primary care physician's visit. I had
    a skin bump that my primary care physician said might be cancerous... it >turned out it wasn't which was good because it took nearly a year for me
    to get an appointment with a dermatologist. But if it HAD been
    cancerous,
    there is a huge cancer center nearby that specializes in stage-4
    cancers.

    Right.

    Only sick people need doctors.

    At one point, the Prayer of the Church (part of the liturgy) had a
    petition asking God to keep the believers "from falling into the hands
    of the physicians".

    Of course, at the time, the physicians may still have been bleeding
    people to prevent them from getting sicker.

    But I am in a town with a huge retiree community and a couple of nearby >cities. Friends out in the western part of the state don't have access
    to hospitals are all; a friend I hang out with at Balticon is an hour
    and
    a half drive to the nearest hospital, and that hospital is about to
    close.

    The loss of medical care in the hinterlands is, indeed, a problem.

    And DOGE/Republican anti-abortion laws haven't made it any better.

    The thing is... it's a lot less expensive to keep people from getting
    very
    sick than it is to treat them when they are very sick. This is part of
    how the whole "paying for care" and "care itself" things get so tightly
    wound up with one another.

    You are ignoring the value of people's /time/.

    Perhaps if the doctors who wanted this, that, and the other had to
    /pay/ for the time it takes the patient to do this, that, or the
    other, the attitude you reflect would change. But God forbid they
    should have to pay anything; no, they are who gets paid.

    When /I/ want something, I have to pay for it. The contrast is clear.

    We have some of the best hospitals and some of the best doctors but yet
    most people don't actually get routine care.

    Healthy people do not need "routine care". Note that this is an
    ideological assertion, and need not be taken as a fact.

    Doctors are like auto mechanics: when you need them, you need them.
    When you don't, you don't take your car to them just to see if
    anything needs fixing.

    I was in Sweden a couple years ago and was talking to someone at a bus
    stop
    and he asked where I was from, and I told him, and he was astonished.
    "But
    you have all your teeth!" he said. That's how the rest of the world perceives
    Americans, I fear.

    Dentistry is another story altogether.

    And often not covered by medical insurance.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 09:17:16
    On 4/26/2026 5:37 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    The thing is... it's a lot less expensive to keep people from getting very sick than it is to treat them when they are very sick. This is part of
    how the whole "paying for care" and "care itself" things get so tightly
    wound up with one another.

    "But simple preventive care is much less profitable!"

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Nuno Silva@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 17:57:29
    On 2026-04-26, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    The USA healthcare system is incredibly functional. The best in the >>world, no argument there. All of the dictators come here for treatment.

    Paying for the USA healthcare system is incredibly dysfunctional.

    There's a connection between the two, though.

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill people, and it's very good at dealing with the very ill. That's why all those
    very ill dictators come here... but they don't come here until they are
    very ill.

    I'd argue that the USA don't have a health care system. Maybe some
    states have something in place, but at least the thing that tends to get portrayed (and that some want to replicate in other countries) is
    "health insurance", which is a somewhat different thing and, if
    implemented badly, inflates prices needlessly just to make the
    appearance of being necessary. And perhaps without the universality
    that'd be expected in health care.

    This aspect of it seems to be at least to some extent consensually
    regarded as the mess it is, given what I've read about reactions to the
    actions of Luigi Mangione. It seems a lot of people have had loved ones
    suffer or die at the hands of the US health insurance industry.

    The other side of the coin is that the American health care system does little to prevent people from getting very ill. People are discouraged
    from visiting doctors unless they are very very sick. A friend of mine
    tried to wait out a stomachache until her appendix burst because she did
    not want to pay the copay for the primary care physician's visit. I had
    a skin bump that my primary care physician said might be cancerous... it turned out it wasn't which was good because it took nearly a year for me
    to get an appointment with a dermatologist. But if it HAD been cancerous, there is a huge cancer center nearby that specializes in stage-4 cancers.

    But I am in a town with a huge retiree community and a couple of nearby cities. Friends out in the western part of the state don't have access
    to hospitals are all; a friend I hang out with at Balticon is an hour and
    a half drive to the nearest hospital, and that hospital is about to close.

    The thing is... it's a lot less expensive to keep people from getting very sick than it is to treat them when they are very sick. This is part of
    how the whole "paying for care" and "care itself" things get so tightly
    wound up with one another.

    I'd not be surprised if providing a decent primary care network with
    24/7 service at least in some form, or at least with expanded opening
    hours and easy and free access to appointments, would vastly reduce cost
    and other stresses in health care systems around the globe.

    For some stuff it could even decrease cost just by having it handled
    outside of a hospital?

    Not to mention people who are sick tend to be less capable of doing
    their job... but we're still fighting this battle, given how a lot of
    societies basically bailed out on simple stuff like covering your face
    with a mask if you suspect you have a respiratory infection...

    We have some of the best hospitals and some of the best doctors but yet
    most people don't actually get routine care.

    I was in Sweden a couple years ago and was talking to someone at a bus stop and he asked where I was from, and I told him, and he was astonished. "But you have all your teeth!" he said. That's how the rest of the world perceives
    Americans, I fear.

    I'll add a tidbit to that: Portugal has had health care for some time
    now, although the right did try to ruin it in some ways (*), but dental
    care has generally not been included. It seems changes have been
    happening since some years ago, and now there's also talk of legislation
    to further improve that?

    (*) Namely rewording "free" to "tendentially free", which then opened
    the door to implementing fees, which was done in a few wrong ways,
    until it morphed into the current sane model, where there are fees
    *outside of primary care*, and these are waived with referrals.


    Original wording [1]: (of 1976-04-02, entered into force on 1976-04-25,
    50 years ago as of yesterday)

    ®1. Everyone has the right to the protection of health and the duty
    to defend and promote health.
    2. The right to health protection shall be realized by the creation
    of a national universal, general and free health service, [...]¯

    Current wording [2]:

    ®1. Everyone has the right to the protection of health and the duty to
    defend and promote health.
    2. The right to the protection of health shall be fulfilled:

    a) By means of a universal and general national health service
    which, with particular regard to the economic and social conditions
    of the citizens who use it, shall tend to be free of charge;[...]¯

    [1] <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:Constitution_of_the_Portuguese_Republic_%281976%29#CHAPTER_III_Social_Rights_and_Duties>
    [2] <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:Constitution_of_the_Portuguese_Republic_%282005%29#Article_64_%28Health%29>

    --
    Nuno Silva

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Nuno Silva@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 18:02:53
    On 2026-04-26, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 08:37:17 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:

    We have some of the best hospitals and some of the best doctors but yet >>most people don't actually get routine care.

    Healthy people do not need "routine care". Note that this is an
    ideological assertion, and need not be taken as a fact.

    Doctors are like auto mechanics: when you need them, you need them.
    When you don't, you don't take your car to them just to see if
    anything needs fixing.

    Not sure that's the metaphor you want to be using - in some parts of the
    world it *is* mandatory for road vehicles to undergo regular checks,
    precisely to make sure they are still fit to be on the roads.

    And, from what I understand, any sufficiently serious transportation
    industry will have regular checks too? Planes and trains tend to visit maintenance facilities at scheduled intervals.

    Unless your point is that the patient could see e.g. a nurse instead of
    a medic?

    --
    Nuno Silva

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 15:34:58
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
    Healthy people do not need "routine care". Note that this is an
    ideological assertion, and need not be taken as a fact.

    Doctors are like auto mechanics: when you need them, you need them.
    When you don't, you don't take your car to them just to see if
    anything needs fixing.

    And that's just as bad for your car as for your body. My mechanic has
    all kinds of horror stories about people who go for years without oil
    changes.

    It's time for new differential fluid and a valve adjustment on my car too. --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 00:57:50
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 08:37:17 -0400 (EDT), Scott Dorsey wrote:

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill
    people, and it's very good at dealing with the very ill. That's why
    all those very ill dictators come here...

    Along with ordinary people from other countries.

    How do they pay for it? Their countries? Socialist-based healthcare
    systems, that?s how. Americans cannot benefit from their own
    healthcare facilities because they are priced out of reach.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 01:00:28
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 09:17:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

    "But simple preventive care is much less profitable!"

    This is the thing about (dum dum dum dum) anti-vaxxers: they forget
    the basic rule of conspiracy theories, in that somebody has to
    actually benefit from the conspiracy.

    Think of the main kinds of things big pharmaceutical corporations
    produce:

    * Cures for diseases
    * Preventives of disease (e.g. vaccines)
    * Treatments which don?t actually cure a condition, but which require
    lifelong application

    Would you care to rank them in order of profitability? Vaccines and
    other preventives would come right at the bottom.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 01:04:01
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:30:25 -0000 (UTC), oldernow wrote:

    There is no such thing as "the American health care system".

    I joined Bluesky not long the time that guy shot and killed the health insurance exec. The outpouring of sympathy for him, and the widespread
    feeling that the health insurance boss only got what was coming to
    him, was unbelievable.

    As some of the posters related their horror stories of having to deal
    with health insurance companies, the feelings became a little less unbelievable.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 21:21:26
    Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    This is the thing about (dum dum dum dum) anti-vaxxers: they forget
    the basic rule of conspiracy theories, in that somebody has to
    actually benefit from the conspiracy.

    If it's not 36-bits you're not playing with a full DEC.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, April 26, 2026 19:14:46
    On 4/26/2026 6:21 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    This is the thing about (dum dum dum dum) anti-vaxxers: they forget
    the basic rule of conspiracy theories, in that somebody has to
    actually benefit from the conspiracy.

    If it's not 36-bits you're not playing with a full DEC.

    The phrase "two bit con man" comes to mind for some reason....

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Nuno Silva@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 08:56:41
    On 2026-04-27, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 09:17:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

    "But simple preventive care is much less profitable!"

    This is the thing about (dum dum dum dum) anti-vaxxers: they forget
    the basic rule of conspiracy theories, in that somebody has to
    actually benefit from the conspiracy.

    Think of the main kinds of things big pharmaceutical corporations
    produce:

    * Cures for diseases
    * Preventives of disease (e.g. vaccines)
    * Treatments which don?t actually cure a condition, but which require
    lifelong application

    Would you care to rank them in order of profitability? Vaccines and
    other preventives would come right at the bottom.

    I think this underestimates things like human stupidity.

    Say, for example, a healthy and happier society will be more productive
    than one where people get constantly ill with no or little care and
    support, and where happiness is merely an illusion, yet a sizable number
    of political parties, corporate interests, etc. around the globe still double-down on policies that actively harm profitability: less social
    care, harder or cheaper sick leave, making people work more to
    exhaustion for the same or even a smaller wage... Or when someone
    stupidly promotes getting rid of public holidays as a way to "boost productivity"...

    Even shareholder primacy is stupid because it'd hurt in the long run at
    least in a saner society. I guess it only looks appealing because you
    get to milk the cow a lot before the card castle trickles down onto you,
    if it ever does?


    What kind of increased profit did Accenture, I mean, Arthur Andersen,
    get overall from doing lax accounting for Enron?

    --
    Nuno Silva

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 09:23:33
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 01:04:01 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:30:25 -0000 (UTC), oldernow wrote:

    There is no such thing as "the American health care system".

    I joined Bluesky not long the time that guy shot and killed the health >insurance exec. The outpouring of sympathy for him, and the widespread >feeling that the health insurance boss only got what was coming to
    him, was unbelievable.

    As some of the posters related their horror stories of having to deal
    with health insurance companies, the feelings became a little less >unbelievable.

    I'm currently reading Robin Cook in one series (the other series is
    James White). Cook has written several novels on the Evils of Managed
    Care. Mostly involving Managed Care executives, or consultants they
    have hired, who decide to kill off patients who promise to cost them
    lots of money in the future.

    OTOH, he also wrote one on the Evils of Concierge Medicine, and his
    latest was about Traditional Doctors Starting Deadly Outbreaks to
    bankrupt managed care organizations through bad publicity.

    There is a /lot/ of hostility out there. But actually shooting the people-in-charge isn't something that most people would consider a
    good idea.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 09:28:44
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 15:34:58 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:

    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
    Healthy people do not need "routine care". Note that this is an
    ideological assertion, and need not be taken as a fact.

    Doctors are like auto mechanics: when you need them, you need them.
    When you don't, you don't take your car to them just to see if
    anything needs fixing.

    And that's just as bad for your car as for your body. My mechanic has
    all kinds of horror stories about people who go for years without oil >changes.

    It's time for new differential fluid and a valve adjustment on my car
    too.

    I'm not talking about oil changes.

    Or vaccinations, for that matter.

    And, of course, if /you/ think something is wrong, you should take
    yourself in to a doctor. Just be prepared to be returning again and
    again for as long as you live.

    In the 50s/60s, tales abounded about the nasty things that happened to
    people who took their car in when it had no obvious problems. There is
    a /reason/ "auto mechanic" did not rank high in the category "trusted business".
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 09:31:43
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 18:02:53 +0100, Nuno Silva
    <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 2026-04-26, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 08:37:17 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:

    We have some of the best hospitals and some of the best doctors but
    yet
    most people don't actually get routine care.

    Healthy people do not need "routine care". Note that this is an
    ideological assertion, and need not be taken as a fact.

    Doctors are like auto mechanics: when you need them, you need them.
    When you don't, you don't take your car to them just to see if
    anything needs fixing.

    Not sure that's the metaphor you want to be using - in some parts of the >world it *is* mandatory for road vehicles to undergo regular checks, >precisely to make sure they are still fit to be on the roads.

    I think that actually applies up here, but the things to check are
    specified.

    And, from what I understand, any sufficiently serious transportation
    industry will have regular checks too? Planes and trains tend to visit >maintenance facilities at scheduled intervals.

    Facilities which, I expect, are controlled by people who do not stand
    to gain directly from payment for the work done.

    Unless your point is that the patient could see e.g. a nurse instead of
    a medic?

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone (for
    medical reasons).
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 09:36:33
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 09:17:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/26/2026 5:37 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    The thing is... it's a lot less expensive to keep people from getting
    very
    sick than it is to treat them when they are very sick. This is part
    of
    how the whole "paying for care" and "care itself" things get so
    tightly
    wound up with one another.

    "But simple preventive care is much less profitable!"

    My own experience confirms this: twice (one dentist, one
    opthalmologist) I have been taken by surprise by an emergency
    diagnosis which required, not treatment, but a referral to on
    ondodontist or optic nerve imaging.

    This was after several years of annual exams showing nothing.

    I'm not sure if "profitable" is appropriate or not, but preventive
    care is certainly less exciting and productive of less income.

    In fairness, I should note that having truly massive student loans to
    pay off cannot help but introduce a certain amount of warping in
    health care decisions. There are, IOW, factors external to the health
    care providers.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 09:38:09
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 01:00:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 09:17:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

    "But simple preventive care is much less profitable!"

    This is the thing about (dum dum dum dum) anti-vaxxers: they forget
    the basic rule of conspiracy theories, in that somebody has to
    actually benefit from the conspiracy.

    Think of the main kinds of things big pharmaceutical corporations
    produce:

    * Cures for diseases
    * Preventives of disease (e.g. vaccines)
    * Treatments which don?t actually cure a condition, but which
    require
    lifelong application

    Would you care to rank them in order of profitability? Vaccines and
    other preventives would come right at the bottom.

    So much so that some diseases affecting millions are ignored because
    the sufferers are too poor to be able to afford the cure.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 09:50:50


    On 4/27/26 09:31, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 18:02:53 +0100, Nuno Silva
    <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 2026-04-26, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 08:37:17 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:

    We have some of the best hospitals and some of the best doctors but yet >>>> most people don't actually get routine care.

    Healthy people do not need "routine care". Note that this is an
    ideological assertion, and need not be taken as a fact.

    Doctors are like auto mechanics: when you need them, you need them.
    When you don't, you don't take your car to them just to see if
    anything needs fixing.

    Not sure that's the metaphor you want to be using - in some parts of the
    world it *is* mandatory for road vehicles to undergo regular checks,
    precisely to make sure they are still fit to be on the roads.

    I think that actually applies up here, but the things to check are
    specified.

    And, from what I understand, any sufficiently serious transportation
    industry will have regular checks too? Planes and trains tend to visit
    maintenance facilities at scheduled intervals.

    Facilities which, I expect, are controlled by people who do not stand
    to gain directly from payment for the work done.

    Unless your point is that the patient could see e.g. a nurse instead of
    a medic?

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone (for
    medical reasons).

    Actually many illnesses are easily ignored by the victim and only discovered through regular examinations. My high blood pressure is
    one such condition. The recent cancer on my nose was a cause of
    concern and I took it to a dermatologist then to a Surgeon who
    whittled away until no cancer showed in the shavings and then
    did a cosmetic procedure to cover the wound with skin from my
    nearby face.
    Not a lot of fun. Glad when it was done and happier when
    i can forget it happened.

    bliss


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 09:57:45


    On 4/27/26 09:23, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 01:04:01 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:30:25 -0000 (UTC), oldernow wrote:

    There is no such thing as "the American health care system".

    I joined Bluesky not long the time that guy shot and killed the health
    insurance exec. The outpouring of sympathy for him, and the widespread
    feeling that the health insurance boss only got what was coming to
    him, was unbelievable.

    As some of the posters related their horror stories of having to deal
    with health insurance companies, the feelings became a little less
    unbelievable.

    I'm currently reading Robin Cook in one series (the other series is
    James White). Cook has written several novels on the Evils of Managed
    Care. Mostly involving Managed Care executives, or consultants they
    have hired, who decide to kill off patients who promise to cost them
    lots of money in the future.

    I believe that the shooting of the Health Care executive was motivated by a specific refusal of care to a cancer patient.


    OTOH, he also wrote one on the Evils of Concierge Medicine, and his
    latest was about Traditional Doctors Starting Deadly Outbreaks to
    bankrupt managed care organizations through bad publicity.

    That sounds simply outlandish.>
    There is a /lot/ of hostility out there. But actually shooting the people-in-charge isn't something that most people would consider a
    good idea.

    Not unless they have been denied care that might be lifesaving.
    And can afford the very best attorneys.

    bliss




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 09:59:09
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 17:57:29 +0100, Nuno Silva
    <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 2026-04-26, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    The USA healthcare system is incredibly functional. The best in the >>>world, no argument there. All of the dictators come here for
    treatment.

    Paying for the USA healthcare system is incredibly dysfunctional.

    There's a connection between the two, though.

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill
    people,
    and it's very good at dealing with the very ill. That's why all those
    very ill dictators come here... but they don't come here until they
    are
    very ill.

    I'd argue that the USA don't have a health care system. Maybe some
    states have something in place, but at least the thing that tends to get >portrayed (and that some want to replicate in other countries) is
    "health insurance", which is a somewhat different thing and, if
    implemented badly, inflates prices needlessly just to make the
    appearance of being necessary. And perhaps without the universality
    that'd be expected in health care.

    When the pandemic started (and it started in Kirkland, located across
    Lake Washington from Seattle) and got going, we had what I am going to
    call "nursing homes" although the current terms are more acceptable
    reached a point where up to 2/3 of their nurses were either home with
    the disease or in quarantine waiting to see if they had caught it.

    This caused enormous suffering, as the remaining nursing staff was
    totally inadequate. You have to understand that, in a lot of cases,
    the residents were supposed to be rotated periodically to avoid bed
    sores. This did not happen. And relatives were not allowed inside.

    Had we had a medical /system/, the /systemic/ response would have been
    to reallocate nursing staff from facilities that had enough to support
    those that did not. But we do not have one: each facility was an
    entity unto itself, deeply concerned with keeping its nurses where
    they were.

    Washington eventually developed a program that produced a pool of
    nursing aides (they didn't have anything like enough time to produce fully-trained nurses) that could and did take some of the load off.
    But it took a while.

    Washington earlier reacted to the opioid crisis by requiring doctors specializing in chronic pain care to actually develop treatment plans
    for their patients. Something like half of them fled the State,
    leaving their patients high and dry. More recently, the State cracked
    down on excessive use of the Emergency Room by Medicaid patients to
    get a primary care physician instead.

    So, taken as a whole, Washington no more has a medical system than the
    USA as a whole does.

    As to insurance: recent experience has shown that this is a mess
    requiring a lot of effort to understand. Just paying what the medical provider's business office billed them for is a lot easier. But that
    can leave nagging questions about why they had to pay that much.

    Interestingly, particularly for group practices and major medical
    centers, the financial people have proven to be quite honest. One of
    them, on assigning me to a new opthalmologist, actually sent bills for
    six months with "Do not pay anything yet" on them because they were
    having problems getting him on as a "preferred provider". Even though
    they probably knew as well as I did what I would be paying when the
    dust settled.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 19:11:13
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 18:02:53 +0100, Nuno Silva
    <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 2026-04-26, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 08:37:17 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:


    And, from what I understand, any sufficiently serious transportation >>industry will have regular checks too? Planes and trains tend to visit >>maintenance facilities at scheduled intervals.

    =46acilities which, I expect, are controlled by people who do not stand
    to gain directly from payment for the work done.

    Actually, that's not the case in the MRO industry, where
    profit is the motive.

    "The maintenance, repair, overhaul (MRO) market was
    US$135.1 billion in 2015, three quarters of the $180.3
    billion aircraft production market."

    Most of the MRO companies are independent of the primes
    (Boeing, Airbus, Embraer) and are for-profit operations.


    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone (for
    medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for which
    annual screenings are beneficial.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 15:29:41
    On 4/26/2026 11:57 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
    On 2026-04-26, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    The USA healthcare system is incredibly functional. The best in the
    world, no argument there. All of the dictators come here for treatment. >>>
    Paying for the USA healthcare system is incredibly dysfunctional.

    There's a connection between the two, though.

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill people, >> and it's very good at dealing with the very ill. That's why all those
    very ill dictators come here... but they don't come here until they are
    very ill.

    I'd argue that the USA don't have a health care system. Maybe some
    states have something in place, but at least the thing that tends to get portrayed (and that some want to replicate in other countries) is
    "health insurance", which is a somewhat different thing and, if
    implemented badly, inflates prices needlessly just to make the
    appearance of being necessary. And perhaps without the universality
    that'd be expected in health care.

    This aspect of it seems to be at least to some extent consensually
    regarded as the mess it is, given what I've read about reactions to the actions of Luigi Mangione. It seems a lot of people have had loved ones suffer or die at the hands of the US health insurance industry.

    We are all going to die. No one leaves this place alive. I thought my hypochondriac father was going to live to 100 but he passed away last
    year at 86.

    My wife is a 21 year advanced breast cancer survivor, I had two heart
    attacks in 2009 and 2013, and our severely disabled daughter had several strokes in her teens in the 2000s until we started treating her problem.
    All of us saved by modern medicine but still severely affected by the various treatments.

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA. And Medicare is not free, my wife and I pay about
    $400 per month each for Part B and other supplemental insurances. But Medicare does not have a gatekeeper and I like it that way.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 14:19:59


    On 4/27/26 13:29, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/26/2026 11:57 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
    On 2026-04-26, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Lynn McGuireÿ <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    The USA healthcare system is incredibly functional.ÿ The best in the
    world, no argument there.ÿ All of the dictators come here for
    treatment.

    Paying for the USA healthcare system is incredibly dysfunctional.

    There's a connection between the two, though.

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill
    people,
    and it's very good at dealing with the very ill.ÿ That's why all those
    very ill dictators come here... but they don't come here until they are
    very ill.

    I'd argue that the USA don't have a health care system. Maybe some
    states have something in place, but at least the thing that tends to get
    portrayed (and that some want to replicate in other countries) is
    "health insurance", which is a somewhat different thing and, if
    implemented badly, inflates prices needlessly just to make the
    appearance of being necessary. And perhaps without the universality
    that'd be expected in health care.

    This aspect of it seems to be at least to some extent consensually
    regarded as the mess it is, given what I've read about reactions to the
    actions of Luigi Mangione. It seems a lot of people have had loved ones
    suffer or die at the hands of the US health insurance industry.

    We are all going to die.ÿ No one leaves this place alive.ÿ I thought my hypochondriac father was going to live to 100 but he passed away last
    year at 86.

    My wife is a 21 year advanced breast cancer survivor, I had two heart attacks in 2009 and 2013, and our severely disabled daughter had several strokes in her teens in the 2000s until we started treating her problem.
    ÿAll of us saved by modern medicine but still severely affected by the various treatments.

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would bankrupt the USA.ÿ And Medicare is not free, my wife and I pay about
    $400 per month each for Part B and other supplemental insurances.ÿ But Medicare does not have a gatekeeper and I like it that way.

    Lynn


    I do not believe that Medicare For All would bankrupt the nation.
    The Canadian Healthcare system did not bankrupt Canada.
    Norway and Sweden are not broke, France and Germany prosper.
    I hear that the Netherlands and Benelux are doing ok.
    The big objection is that workers would have to pay more taxes and
    that those whose income is largely the interest on the riches that they
    have
    invested would likely have to pay substantially more taxes.
    People think it would be rough on them but they could afford
    modest yachts and less spacious housing in multiple locations.
    If you think it would be economically bad check out the Eisenhower years and how much luxury the well off enjoyed. High Tax rate of
    over 90%.

    bliss


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 01:23:24
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 23:40:52
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Robert Woodward@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 21:56:17
    In article <10sp26c$2qbam$5@dont-email.me>,
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    But they are not dealing with the American Legal system and American
    patients. I know that people keep pointing at the health insurance
    companies, but they don't have enough employees to absorb enormous
    amounts of money.

    --
    "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
    Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?-----------------------------------------------------
    Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 21:57:56


    On 4/27/26 21:40, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    Lynn

    Why are you so sure of that? The fact is that most procedures
    are cheaper done abroad. Most drugs are cheaper bought from
    those nations but are just as good as the American versions.
    Maybe the Covid-19 vaccines lagged a bit behind where
    Trump had not thrown a billion at the pharmeceutical giants.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Monday, April 27, 2026 22:02:02


    On 4/27/26 21:56, Robert Woodward wrote:
    In article <10sp26c$2qbam$5@dont-email.me>,
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    But they are not dealing with the American Legal system and American patients. I know that people keep pointing at the health insurance
    companies, but they don't have enough employees to absorb enormous
    amounts of money.

    Oh they have enough money to give bit bonuses to executives
    who are paid outrageously high salaries for deciding what treatments
    will be given to partients. And they are reputed to have LLMs to
    make logical decisions to maximize their profits.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 05:41:06
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 23:40:52 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it
    would bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for
    half the cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    They still manage to live longer than people in the US. So they must
    be doing *something* right ...

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Nuno Silva@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 10:24:36
    On 2026-04-28, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Indeed. While some funding is needed, I get the impression a significant
    chunk of the "cost" in the US is created by the health insurance
    industry. Think of it as a very inefficient bureaucracy.

    (Is it possible "half" is even a too high estimate?)

    For some reason, DOGE missed a spot here (do note that I'm *not* saying
    it was spot-on in any other area).


    --
    Nuno Silva

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Nuno Silva@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 10:29:15
    On 2026-04-28, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    Lynn


    Not really, no, the USA have quite inflated prices that are artificially introduced in health care to justify and profit the health insurance
    industry. If you want to have a realistic comparison, you need to away
    with that.

    Maybe it'd be good to implement the health insurance approach to
    motorways in the USA, then maybe it'd be seen for how ridiculous it
    is. That said, I'm sure they'd just find a way to make it stick...

    Similar approaches exist in other areas of the US economy and society,
    see student loans and tuition fees.



    Honestly, the country that limits medical treatment is the USA. And I
    don't mean ICE refusing medical assistance to Ren‚e Good, or brutally
    murdering a nurse, I mean that this high barrier to access in inflated
    costs and needless bureaucracy and the constant need for additional
    programmes to ensure some degree of acess instead of just getting rid of
    health insurance actually results in people being left out.

    --
    Nuno Silva

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From oldernow@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 12:53:58
    On 2026-04-26, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    And I never thought I would agree with you
    about anything.

    You were either having a bad day, or imagining
    things. Regardless, the solution is to put more
    effort into your killfile, keeping mind that so
    much as replying to me - even without including
    hysterical word orderings like "agree with you"
    - earns you newsgroup "community" points in the
    direction of being shunned by the others.

    --
    v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
    | this line was supposed to be clever | ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 06:47:27
    On 4/27/2026 10:02 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:


    On 4/27/26 21:56, Robert Woodward wrote:
    In article <10sp26c$2qbam$5@dont-email.me>,
    ÿ Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the >>> cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    But they are not dealing with the American Legal system and American
    patients. I know that people keep pointing at the health insurance
    companies, but they don't have enough employees to absorb enormous
    amounts of money.

    ÿÿÿÿOh they have enough money to give bit bonuses to executives
    who are paid outrageously high salaries for deciding what treatments
    will be given to partients.ÿÿ And they are reputed to have LLMs to
    make logical decisions to maximize their profits.

    The critical difference is the US system is For Profit. The
    "Socialist-style" system is _not_ For Profit.

    As for "don't have enough employees to absorb enormous amounts of money"
    I submit exhibit Elon Musk as an example of the human capacity to absorb effectively infinite amounts of money.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From James Nicoll@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 14:01:07
    In article <10spuck$30dt3$6@dont-email.me>,
    Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 2026-04-28, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Indeed. While some funding is needed, I get the impression a significant >chunk of the "cost" in the US is created by the health insurance
    industry. Think of it as a very inefficient bureaucracy.

    It's only inefficient if you think the purpose is to provide affordable
    health care. As a means of moving money from American helots to the
    insurance companies, the system works very well.


    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 14:20:58
    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    Nonsense. They do it for half the cost because they don't spend
    50% of their medical dollars on insurance company overhead,
    lawyers and useless billing companies.

    The US system is completely screwed up, with significant dollars
    spent in the legal system and political "contributions".

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From oldernow@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 14:28:05
    On 2026-04-28, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    The critical difference is the US system is For
    Profit. The "Socialist-style" system is _not_
    For Profit.

    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!

    *Everything* implemented by self-centered
    be-ings is for their own profit, *especially*
    if/when they declare it not to be!

    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!

    Oh my gosh, how I wish you could share your
    drugs with me....

    As for "don't have enough employees to absorb
    enormous amounts of money" I submit exhibit
    Elon Musk as an example of the human capacity
    to absorb effectively infinite amounts of money.

    All egos are like that, not to mention blind to
    that fact by the very mechanism of self adoration
    that makes all the other ego-centric human misery
    possible.

    --
    v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
    | this line was supposed to be clever | ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From oldernow@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 14:31:16
    On 2026-04-28, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    The US system is completely screwed up, with
    significant dollars spent in the legal system
    and political "contributions".

    Again, there is no system, there is only *said*
    to be a system to avoid having to see and admit
    to the truth of the situation, which is the
    utter madness of self-centered beings
    bouncing off each other in their lust
    for the most easily attained gains
    possible.

    --
    v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
    | this line was supposed to be clever | ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 11:01:56
    On 4/27/2026 4:29 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/26/2026 11:57 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
    On 2026-04-26, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Lynn McGuireÿ <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
    The USA healthcare system is incredibly functional.ÿ The best in the
    world, no argument there.ÿ All of the dictators come here for
    treatment.

    Paying for the USA healthcare system is incredibly dysfunctional.

    There's a connection between the two, though.

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill
    people,
    and it's very good at dealing with the very ill.ÿ That's why all those
    very ill dictators come here... but they don't come here until they are
    very ill.

    I'd argue that the USA don't have a health care system. Maybe some
    states have something in place, but at least the thing that tends to get
    portrayed (and that some want to replicate in other countries) is
    "health insurance", which is a somewhat different thing and, if
    implemented badly, inflates prices needlessly just to make the
    appearance of being necessary. And perhaps without the universality
    that'd be expected in health care.

    This aspect of it seems to be at least to some extent consensually
    regarded as the mess it is, given what I've read about reactions to the
    actions of Luigi Mangione. It seems a lot of people have had loved ones
    suffer or die at the hands of the US health insurance industry.

    We are all going to die.ÿ No one leaves this place alive.ÿ I thought my hypochondriac father was going to live to 100 but he passed away last
    year at 86.

    My wife is a 21 year advanced breast cancer survivor, I had two heart attacks in 2009 and 2013, and our severely disabled daughter had several strokes in her teens in the 2000s until we started treating her problem.
    ÿAll of us saved by modern medicine but still severely affected by the various treatments.

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would bankrupt the USA.
    [...]

    Somehow, most the other First World nations manage it.

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 11:08:23
    On 4/28/2026 12:40 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    Yet, somehow, the US is 62nd in life expectancy

    https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/

    and 53rd in infant mortality

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_and_under-five_mortality_rates

    The European countries with "socialist medicine" are much higher
    up both lists than the US.


    pt


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 11:15:22
    On 4/28/2026 9:47 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 10:02 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:


    On 4/27/26 21:56, Robert Woodward wrote:
    In article <10sp26c$2qbam$5@dont-email.me>,
    ÿ Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would >>>>> bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half
    the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    But they are not dealing with the American Legal system and American
    patients. I know that people keep pointing at the health insurance
    companies, but they don't have enough employees to absorb enormous
    amounts of money.

    ÿÿÿÿÿOh they have enough money to give bit bonuses to executives
    who are paid outrageously high salaries for deciding what treatments
    will be given to partients.ÿÿ And they are reputed to have LLMs to
    make logical decisions to maximize their profits.

    The critical difference is the US system is For Profit.ÿ The "Socialist- style" system is _not_ For Profit.

    As for "don't have enough employees to absorb enormous amounts of money"
    I submit exhibit Elon Musk as an example of the human capacity to absorb effectively infinite amounts of money.

    Last year United Healthcare paid out over 19 billion dollars in stock dividends, on 447 billion in revenue, or which 310 billion was paid out
    in reimbursements.

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 11:19:27
    On 4/28/2026 5:24 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
    On 2026-04-28, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Indeed. While some funding is needed, I get the impression a significant chunk of the "cost" in the US is created by the health insurance
    industry. Think of it as a very inefficient bureaucracy.

    (Is it possible "half" is even a too high estimate?)

    For some reason, DOGE missed a spot here (do note that I'm *not* saying
    it was spot-on in any other area).

    There are actual numbers out there, so you don't have to work on
    'impressions'.

    Picking one, I see that United Healthcare paid out 83% of its revenue
    as medical reimbursements last year.

    Whether that's too high, or low, is a matter of perspective. A
    socialized system would probably have lower overhead (no stock
    dividends, for a start), but 'half' is a wild exaggeration.

    pt


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 15:44:15
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
    On 4/28/2026 5:24 AM, Nuno Silva wrote:
    On 2026-04-28, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the >>> cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Indeed. While some funding is needed, I get the impression a significant
    chunk of the "cost" in the US is created by the health insurance
    industry. Think of it as a very inefficient bureaucracy.

    (Is it possible "half" is even a too high estimate?)

    For some reason, DOGE missed a spot here (do note that I'm *not* saying
    it was spot-on in any other area).

    There are actual numbers out there, so you don't have to work on >'impressions'.

    Picking one, I see that United Healthcare paid out 83% of its revenue
    as medical reimbursements last year.

    How much of that 83% went to the medical professional and
    how much to the billing services, hospitals or physician co-operatives
    that handle the massive paperwork required for billing and
    reimbursement?

    Last time I checked UHC's 10k, they paid out less than 70%
    of revenue as reimbursements (granted this was almost a
    decade ago).

    According to the most recent 10k:

    Total Revenue $447,567,000,000
    Premium Revenue $352,229,000,000
    Medical costs $313,995,000,000
    Operating costs $ 59,592,000,000
    Cost of products sold $ 50,665,000,000

    That's about 30% overhead if you consider total
    revenue instead of just the premium revenue.




    Whether that's too high, or low, is a matter of perspective. A
    socialized system would probably have lower overhead (no stock
    dividends, for a start), but 'half' is a wild exaggeration.

    Medicare overhead was in the single digit percentage, last I checked;
    but congress has screwed that up as well.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 08:58:45
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone (for >>medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for which >annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the
    doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor
    said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work
    would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would
    /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up from surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    The doctor, of course, had no problem returning to work at all. He was
    telling the truth about that.

    You just have to keep in mind the realities of the situation.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 09:04:06
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 21:57:56 -0700, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:



    On 4/27/26 21:40, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it
    would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half
    the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    Lynn

    Why are you so sure of that? The fact is that most procedures
    are cheaper done abroad. Most drugs are cheaper bought from
    those nations but are just as good as the American versions.

    I have seen cautions on this: if you buy by brand name, the same brand
    name is sometimes used for completely different drugs in different
    countries.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 13:53:09
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.


    In the past year I've had about twenty five medical appointments.

    I've been to the ER five times in the past six months four times in the
    past ten days (nothing dangerous this week, just painful).

    I have five treatments lined up for the next two weeks, and already
    have eight more appointments in the next couple of months thereafter.
    Further surgery might be on the table for June (nothing dangerous).

    I used to hate the ER, but yesterday when on an unrelated matter I
    walked past the Ambulatory Treatment Centre I felt like going in - but
    maybe that's the morphine talking. Or Stockholm syndrome, or something.

    They offered to fix my hernia, but I said no as it doesn't hurt and is
    not likely ever to do so. It's true that my career as a bathing suit
    model is somewhat compromised, but I've had a good run.

    If there's a limit, I have not found it.


    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 16:25:19
    On 4/28/2026 10:08 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 12:40 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the >>> cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    Yet, somehow, the US is 62nd in life expectancy

    https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/

    and 53rd in infant mortality

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_and_under- five_mortality_rates

    The European countries with "socialist medicine" are much higher
    up both lists than the US.


    pt

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 16:27:36
    On 4/28/2026 12:53 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the >>> cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.


    In the past year I've had about twenty five medical appointments.

    I've been to the ER five times in the past six months four times in the
    past ten days (nothing dangerous this week, just painful).

    I have five treatments lined up for the next two weeks, and already
    have eight more appointments in the next couple of months thereafter.
    Further surgery might be on the table for June (nothing dangerous).

    I used to hate the ER, but yesterday when on an unrelated matter I
    walked past the Ambulatory Treatment Centre I felt like going in - but
    maybe that's the morphine talking.ÿ Or Stockholm syndrome, or something.

    They offered to fix my hernia, but I said no as it doesn't hurt and is
    not likely ever to do so.ÿ It's true that my career as a bathing suit
    model is somewhat compromised, but I've had a good run.

    If there's a limit, I have not found it.


    William Hyde

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    My Canadian customers complain bitterly about Canadian healthcare.
    Several of them have private health insurance that is good for private healthcare in Canada and in the USA.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 16:29:31
    On 4/28/2026 9:28 AM, oldernow wrote:
    On 2026-04-28, Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    The critical difference is the US system is For
    Profit. The "Socialist-style" system is _not_
    For Profit.

    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!

    *Everything* implemented by self-centered
    be-ings is for their own profit, *especially*
    if/when they declare it not to be!

    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
    LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!

    Oh my gosh, how I wish you could share your
    drugs with me....

    As for "don't have enough employees to absorb
    enormous amounts of money" I submit exhibit
    Elon Musk as an example of the human capacity
    to absorb effectively infinite amounts of money.

    All egos are like that, not to mention blind to
    that fact by the very mechanism of self adoration
    that makes all the other ego-centric human misery
    possible.

    Jealousy is rampant on this board.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 14:51:52


    On 4/28/26 08:58, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone (for
    medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for which
    annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    And of course the patient may avoid death from diseases put off
    by vaccination. With Covid-19 you could avoid hospitalization with all
    the shoving tubes into your throat to keep you alive. All reports about
    the people who were not put into medically induced comas to
    a void the discomfort say that is worth avoiding.


    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor
    said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work
    would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would
    /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up from surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    The doctor, of course, had no problem returning to work at all. He was telling the truth about that.

    You just have to keep in mind the realities of the situation.

    Too true. In my career as a nurse I frequently saw people
    who had avoided dealing with the reality of their situation and many
    who through age related decline were incapable of dealing with the
    the reality of their situations.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 21:55:48
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:27:36 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    My Canadian customers complain bitterly about Canadian healthcare.
    Several of them have private health insurance that is good for
    private healthcare in Canada and in the USA.

    Interesting that their Canadian health insurance actually works,
    compared to American health insurance ...

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 21:59:26
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 11:19:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer wrote:

    On 2026-04-28, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for
    half the cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    A socialized system would probably have lower overhead (no stock
    dividends, for a start), but 'half' is a wild exaggeration.

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita>
    <https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.PC.CD>

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 17:45:03
    On 4/28/2026 4:55 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:27:36 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    My Canadian customers complain bitterly about Canadian healthcare.
    Several of them have private health insurance that is good for
    private healthcare in Canada and in the USA.

    Interesting that their Canadian health insurance actually works,
    compared to American health insurance ...

    I got my cataracts replaced last year on Medicare.

    Tell me again that USA health insurance does not work.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 16:38:40


    On 4/28/26 15:45, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 4:55 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:27:36 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    My Canadian customers complain bitterly about Canadian healthcare.
    Several of them have private health insurance that is good for
    private healthcare in Canada and in the USA.

    Interesting that their Canadian health insurance actually works,
    compared to American health insurance ...

    I got my cataracts replaced last year on Medicare.

    Tell me again that USA health insurance does not work.

    Lynn

    Oh it works for people like you and me of light skin and with
    enough education to know how to fill out forms and find doctors
    who will take Medicare/Medi-Aid. A lot of folks are less skilled
    at negotiating the minefield of qualifications.

    I even impressed the surgeon who fused my ankle which
    is a primitive procedure that limits my right ankle's range of
    motion with my drive for independence and tolerance for pain,
    enough so that at 87 he got his approval for a fusion surgery
    on a person of my age.

    bliss


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 20:00:10
    Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    There are sixteen people in my PCP's office. One is the doctor, two are nurses, and thirteen are involved with billing. I cannot but imagine that
    the overhead is greater than the actual money spent on patient care.

    Folks on the right are rightfully worried that government overhead will
    be a problem for medical care, since the government is designed for consistency over efficiency. But I have never in my life seen any government operation as chaotic and topheavy as United Heathcare. And that is saying something.
    --scott


    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 20:14:35
    Bobbie Sellers <blissInSanFrancisco@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
    On 4/27/26 21:40, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the >>> cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    Why are you so sure of that? The fact is that most procedures
    are cheaper done abroad. Most drugs are cheaper bought from
    those nations but are just as good as the American versions.

    Limiting medical treatments is always going to happen, though, because the resources are not unlimited. But personally I would much rather see a transparent system where I could understand how resources would be limited, over the American system where I get denied care for no obvious reason and
    then have to jump through elaborate hoops to even figure out why.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 17:29:12
    On 4/28/2026 8:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone (for
    medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for which
    annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor
    said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work
    would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would
    /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up from surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    I was able to return to work the next day after each of my cataract
    surgeries. (One for each eye.)

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 20:29:57
    Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:27:36 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    My Canadian customers complain bitterly about Canadian healthcare.
    Several of them have private health insurance that is good for
    private healthcare in Canada and in the USA.

    Interesting that their Canadian health insurance actually works,
    compared to American health insurance ...

    My Canadian friend says that in the US, you get whatever healthcare you
    can pay for, while in Canada you get whatever healthcare you can wait for.

    As I said earlier, the US system is optimized for people who are very
    sick but does little to keep them from getting sick.

    But it's true that many Canadians do come to the US for more elaborate
    health care. At the border they can wave to all the US residents driving
    to Canada to pick up their prescriptions. It's a hell of a weird world. --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 01:19:24
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death??

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 21:20:14
    On 4/28/2026 8:14 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Bobbie Sellers <blissInSanFrancisco@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
    On 4/27/26 21:40, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would >>>>> bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the >>>> cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.

    Why are you so sure of that? The fact is that most procedures
    are cheaper done abroad. Most drugs are cheaper bought from
    those nations but are just as good as the American versions.

    Limiting medical treatments is always going to happen, though, because the resources are not unlimited. But personally I would much rather see a transparent system where I could understand how resources would be limited, over the American system where I get denied care for no obvious reason and then have to jump through elaborate hoops to even figure out why.
    --scott


    Yes, restriction happens in the US.

    I, myself, would benefit from GLP=1 drugs. However, Medicare won't pay
    it, because I am (outside of weight) too healthy. My wife gets it free,
    due to her medical conditons. We're trying to decide if we want to
    pay a few hundred dollars a month to get it outside of insurance.

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 03:36:46
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:45:03 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    Tell me again that USA health insurance does not work.

    I heard some stories, as people expressed sympathy for that guy who
    shot and killed the health insurance exec. Hard to believe anybody
    could express sympathy for such a killer, but after hearing those
    stories, maybe not so hard.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 22:48:21
    On 4/28/2026 10:36 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:45:03 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    Tell me again that USA health insurance does not work.

    I heard some stories, as people expressed sympathy for that guy who
    shot and killed the health insurance exec. Hard to believe anybody
    could express sympathy for such a killer, but after hearing those
    stories, maybe not so hard.

    IIRC, United Healthcare rejects 43% of all preapprovals. The next
    highest was around 20%.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 22:56:40
    On 4/28/2026 7:29 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:27:36 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    My Canadian customers complain bitterly about Canadian healthcare.
    Several of them have private health insurance that is good for
    private healthcare in Canada and in the USA.

    Interesting that their Canadian health insurance actually works,
    compared to American health insurance ...

    My Canadian friend says that in the US, you get whatever healthcare you
    can pay for, while in Canada you get whatever healthcare you can wait for.

    As I said earlier, the US system is optimized for people who are very
    sick but does little to keep them from getting sick.

    But it's true that many Canadians do come to the US for more elaborate
    health care. At the border they can wave to all the US residents driving
    to Canada to pick up their prescriptions. It's a hell of a weird world. --scott

    I am a patient at M. D. Anderson Cancer Center here in Houston. Maybe
    the finest cancer care in the world.

    I went in early this year to get the nodules in my lungs checked out
    again using their MRI machine on low dose. No growth and still 5 mm in diameter for all five nodules. I did not pay a penny for the test using
    my Medicare and supplemental insurance, I pay about $400/month for the
    health insurance. I go back again in 2027.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, April 28, 2026 22:56:57
    On 4/28/2026 8:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death??

    Immediate death, death within 30 days of delivery, death within 90 days
    of delivery, etc are handled differently by states and countries for
    infant mortality.

    Some places also define death of a fetus after a certain number of weeks
    as infant mortality.

    You learn a lot of things when you lose a baby during what was a normal delivery. There is no such thing as a normal delivery.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 18:04:05
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 08:37:17 -0400 (EDT), Scott Dorsey wrote:

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill
    people, and it's very good at dealing with the very ill. That's why
    all those very ill dictators come here...

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very rich
    people, and it's very good at dealing with the very rich. That's why all
    those very rich dictators go there...
    (Only those dictators appointed by the US or those that gave the US a
    major share from exploiting their helots.)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 18:04:33
    On 29/04/2026 03:15, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 9:47 AM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
    snip for brevity

    The critical difference is the US system is For Profit.ÿ The
    "Socialist- style" system is _not_ For Profit.

    As for "don't have enough employees to absorb enormous amounts of
    money" I submit exhibit Elon Musk as an example of the human capacity
    to absorb effectively infinite amounts of money.

    Last year United Healthcare paid out over 19 billion dollars in stock dividends, on 447 billion in revenue, or which 310 billion was paid out
    in reimbursements.

    pt

    To me, a New Zealand resident, those figures are almost astronomical
    enough to qualify as speculative fiction.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Titus G@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 18:06:07
    On 29/04/2026 05:53, William Hyde wrote:
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half the >>> cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.


    In the past year I've had about twenty five medical appointments.

    I've been to the ER five times in the past six months four times in the
    past ten days (nothing dangerous this week, just painful).

    I have five treatments lined up for the next two weeks, and already
    have eight more appointments in the next couple of months thereafter.
    Further surgery might be on the table for June (nothing dangerous).

    I used to hate the ER, but yesterday when on an unrelated matter I
    walked past the Ambulatory Treatment Centre I felt like going in - but
    maybe that's the morphine talking.ÿ Or Stockholm syndrome, or something.

    They offered to fix my hernia, but I said no as it doesn't hurt and is
    not likely ever to do so.ÿ It's true that my career as a bathing suit
    model is somewhat compromised, but I've had a good run.

    If there's a limit, I have not found it.


    William Hyde


    Aotearoa is a very small player that boasts free health care but its
    current government coalition contains the ACT party, a mongrel spawn of
    the western world Atlas group, whose policy is, "Dam the Torpedos: Full
    Speed Ahead" for multinational company's profits including foreign
    Banking and Insurance interests seeking more private hospitals in N.Z.
    Because of the under funding of hospitals and the consequent creation of lengthy waiting lists for mainly orthopaedic surgery such as knee and
    hip replacements, I regret to having partially agree with Dimwire as the
    delay is somewhat similar to his limit.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 06:52:11
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 22:48:21 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 10:36 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:45:03 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    Tell me again that USA health insurance does not work.

    I heard some stories, as people expressed sympathy for that guy who
    shot and killed the health insurance exec. Hard to believe anybody
    could express sympathy for such a killer, but after hearing those
    stories, maybe not so hard.

    IIRC, United Healthcare rejects 43% of all preapprovals. The next
    highest was around 20%.

    One story was about someone who got an approval for some procedure,
    went ahead and did it, then got a call sometime later saying it had
    been retrospectively declined.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 06:53:14
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 22:56:57 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 8:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death??

    Immediate death, death within 30 days of delivery, death within 90
    days of delivery, etc are handled differently by states and
    countries for infant mortality.

    I would define any death of an ?infant? as ?infant mortality?.

    Now how about ?life expectancy??

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 08:21:58


    On 4/28/26 23:04, Titus G wrote:
    On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 08:37:17 -0400 (EDT), Scott Dorsey wrote:

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very ill
    people, and it's very good at dealing with the very ill. That's why
    all those very ill dictators come here...

    The American health care system is optimized to deal with very rich
    people, and it's very good at dealing with the very rich. That's why all those very rich dictators go there...
    (Only those dictators appointed by the US or those that gave the US a
    major share from exploiting their helots.)

    The American Health Care system is not a system but a bunch of
    partial systems. We have lots of free care support for children and
    older folks who can follow the rules but the parents of children may
    be neglected when they cling to the middle class status which some
    enjoy. I worked in health care for as long as I could work but had
    to stop too soon but i managed to pay my PCPs for quite a while
    but then never having truely ascended to the middle class I had
    to take advantage of public programs some of which had very
    unfriendly gate-keeping bureaucrats. It was not easy to put up with the disrespct, but generally I got the care I needed to stay alive until
    my present age. Also the basic knowledge I had gleaned in my
    career helped me.
    I am also lucky in that being white I had clear advantages
    in dealing with physicians over many people of color.

    bliss

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 08:49:31
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:29:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 8:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone
    (for
    medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for
    which
    annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the
    doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor
    said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work
    would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would
    /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up from
    surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    I was able to return to work the next day after each of my cataract >surgeries. (One for each eye.)

    Well, good for you.

    Being physically capable of getting there, or even surviving the day,
    is not the point: the point is, I would not have performed my duties
    propertly.

    There is more to a job than just showing up.

    (Indeed, the first time I was required to do eye-drops for a month as
    part of inducing the eye to stop quivering in fear after being cut
    open unexpectedly. I did this before eating lunch. When I managed to
    get the drop in, I could feel it down to my toes, and the first call
    after lunch was often /very/ strange.)
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From oldernow@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 16:00:06
    On 2026-04-29, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    I am also lucky in that being white I had clear
    advantages in dealing with physicians over many
    people of color.

    Making distinctions between people based on skin
    color is racist/racism.

    --
    v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
    | this line was supposed to be clever | ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 15:37:56
    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death??

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Once again, Lynn is burying his head in the sand.

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 15:46:20
    On 4/28/2026 11:56 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 8:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA.ÿ Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death??

    Immediate death, death within 30 days of delivery, death within 90 days
    of delivery, etc are handled differently by states and countries for
    infant mortality.

    Some places also define death of a fetus after a certain number of weeks
    as infant mortality.

    You learn a lot of things when you lose a baby during what was a normal delivery.ÿ There is no such thing as a normal delivery.

    If you'd bothered to click through to the source I'd cited, you'd know
    the number I gave referred to the under-five mortality rate, in all
    cases.

    There is no ambiguity. Don't make a false claim that there is.

    The US has a higher infant mortality rate (6.5/100,000 births) than
    all those advanced European countries with socialized medicine.
    (examples: Finland 2.3, Norway 2.4, Sweden 2.5).

    Look it up yourself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_and_under-five_mortality_rates

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 15:52:44
    On 4/29/2026 12:00 PM, oldernow wrote:
    On 2026-04-29, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    I am also lucky in that being white I had clear
    advantages in dealing with physicians over many
    people of color.

    Making distinctions between people based on skin
    color is racist/racism.

    Treating people differently based on skin color is raceist.

    Observing and reporting people being treated differently based on skin
    color is not.

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 16:48:43
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 12:53 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would >>>>> bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for half
    the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.


    In the past year I've had about twenty five medical appointments.

    I've been to the ER five times in the past six months four times in
    the past ten days (nothing dangerous this week, just painful).

    I have five treatments lined up for the next two weeks, and already
    have eight more appointments in the next couple of months thereafter.
    Further surgery might be on the table for June (nothing dangerous).

    I used to hate the ER, but yesterday when on an unrelated matter I
    walked past the Ambulatory Treatment Centre I felt like going in - but
    maybe that's the morphine talking.ÿ Or Stockholm syndrome, or something.

    They offered to fix my hernia, but I said no as it doesn't hurt and is
    not likely ever to do so.ÿ It's true that my career as a bathing suit
    model is somewhat compromised, but I've had a good run.

    If there's a limit, I have not found it.


    William Hyde

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    Because they're well off people who want to buy their way to the head of
    the line at the expense of people who need treatment more urgently?

    Why do Americans come here? They do, in numbers.

    Remember that I lived in the US for ten years. While I have had some
    good experiences with the US healthcare system (Duke university
    hospital), I've had bad ones too (Texas).

    Basically I got along fine in the US, because I always had health
    insurance. But certainly not better than in Canada.

    At one point in Texas I was feeling a little burned out, and I asked if
    I could be assigned teaching (I sat in on some lectures and decided that
    the students really needed someone with some teaching skill). I was
    fine with the significantly lower pay this would involve. But it turned
    out that the teaching position did not come with life insurance. I
    would have had to pay $600 a month to get it, and on this lower salary
    that just wasn't affordable. So I did not teach. That sort of dilemma
    should not exist.

    Most humanities professors at A&M have only a nine month salary, and
    that not terribly generous. In the other three months they have to pay
    COBRA. People with a family to support basically can't afford these jobs.



    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 16:53:49
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 22:48:21 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 10:36 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:45:03 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    Tell me again that USA health insurance does not work.

    I heard some stories, as people expressed sympathy for that guy who
    shot and killed the health insurance exec. Hard to believe anybody
    could express sympathy for such a killer, but after hearing those
    stories, maybe not so hard.

    IIRC, United Healthcare rejects 43% of all preapprovals. The next
    highest was around 20%.

    One story was about someone who got an approval for some procedure,
    went ahead and did it, then got a call sometime later saying it had
    been retrospectively declined.

    In my experience the insurance companies sent you many bills for things
    that are covered.

    For example, after a copay of 125, I received a bill for 750 for a short
    stay at Duke hospital. A friend was in a bit longer and billed 4500.

    Best is to simply ignore them, as they are either incompetent or are
    hoping you'll simply pay. After the second notice they either figure
    out that they are owed nothing, or that you are not a sucker.

    Incompetence or a scam, take your pick. Or both!

    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Nance@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 17:39:17
    On 4/29/26 4:48 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 12:53 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it would >>>>>> bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for
    half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.


    In the past year I've had about twenty five medical appointments.

    I've been to the ER five times in the past six months four times in
    the past ten days (nothing dangerous this week, just painful).

    I have five treatments lined up for the next two weeks, and already
    have eight more appointments in the next couple of months thereafter.
    Further surgery might be on the table for June (nothing dangerous).

    I used to hate the ER, but yesterday when on an unrelated matter I
    walked past the Ambulatory Treatment Centre I felt like going in -
    but maybe that's the morphine talking.ÿ Or Stockholm syndrome, or
    something.

    They offered to fix my hernia, but I said no as it doesn't hurt and
    is not likely ever to do so.ÿ It's true that my career as a bathing
    suit model is somewhat compromised, but I've had a good run.

    If there's a limit, I have not found it.


    William Hyde

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    Because they're well off people who want to buy their way to the head of
    the line at the expense of people who need treatment more urgently?

    Why do Americans come here?ÿ They do, in numbers.

    Remember that I lived in the US for ten years.ÿ While I have had some
    good experiences with the US healthcare system (Duke university
    hospital), I've had bad ones too (Texas).

    Basically I got along fine in the US, because I always had health
    insurance.ÿ But certainly not better than in Canada.

    At one point in Texas I was feeling a little burned out, and I asked if
    I could be assigned teaching (I sat in on some lectures and decided that
    the students really needed someone with some teaching skill).ÿ I was
    fine with the significantly lower pay this would involve.ÿ But it turned
    out that the teaching position did not come with life insurance.ÿ I
    would have had to pay $600 a month to get it, and on this lower salary
    that just wasn't affordable.ÿ So I did not teach. That sort of dilemma should not exist.

    Most humanities professors at A&M have only a nine month salary, and
    that not terribly generous.ÿ In the other three months they have to pay COBRA.ÿ People with a family to support basically can't afford these jobs.


    Re: needing COBRA
    Do you happen to know if that's still true now?

    Nowadays, all the tenured/tenure-track faculty in other states I know
    about (which does not include Texas at the moment) are considered
    "9/12" or "9/11" employees, which (amongst other things) means you get
    paid your salary over the 9 months of the academic year, but there's no interruption in benefits over the 12 months.

    Tony



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From oldernow@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 23:22:32
    On 2026-04-29, Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 4/29/2026 12:00 PM, oldernow wrote:
    On 2026-04-29, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    I am also lucky in that being white I had clear
    advantages in dealing with physicians over many
    people of color.

    Making distinctions between people based on skin
    color is racist/racism.

    Treating people differently based on skin color
    is raceist.

    Observing and reporting people being treated
    differently based on skin color is not.

    Referring to one invisible person(hood) by a
    skin color, and another invisible person(hood)
    by another skin color is treating those invisible
    person(hood)s differently.

    The correct way to do what you're saying would
    be to refer to them per a construct like "that
    person whose skin color is <whatever color>",
    not by saying their person(hood) has a color.

    One referencing construct keeps the color
    associated with the skin; the other with
    the person(hood).

    That other constitutes treating them - i.e.
    their person - subtly differently, which
    in practice just so happens to be the
    beginning of a slippery slope to
    treating them differently in
    other ways.

    Language matters.

    --
    v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
    | this line was supposed to be clever | ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 17:50:29
    On 4/29/2026 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:29:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 8:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone (for >>>>> medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for which >>>> annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the
    doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor
    said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work
    would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would
    /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up from
    surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    I was able to return to work the next day after each of my cataract
    surgeries. (One for each eye.)

    Well, good for you.

    Being physically capable of getting there, or even surviving the day,
    is not the point: the point is, I would not have performed my duties propertly.

    There is more to a job than just showing up.

    (Indeed, the first time I was required to do eye-drops for a month as
    part of inducing the eye to stop quivering in fear after being cut
    open unexpectedly. I did this before eating lunch. When I managed to
    get the drop in, I could feel it down to my toes, and the first call
    after lunch was often /very/ strange.)

    Sounds like you had something more complicated than a lasik lens
    replacement. My sympathies.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 17:52:30
    On 4/29/2026 12:37 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA.ÿ Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death??

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Once again, Lynn is burying his head in the sand.

    I assume you meant to say "head in a concrete block"....

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Robert Woodward@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 29, 2026 22:05:34
    In article <10stmmk$5jhk$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death??

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Are they counting only infants that drew breath when born? Because, it
    is my impression (and perhaps Lynn's as well) that the USA definition of infant mortality includes full term pregnancies that ended up with a
    dead infant at birth.

    --
    "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
    Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?-----------------------------------------------------
    Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 30, 2026 08:28:47
    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 17:50:29 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/29/2026 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:29:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 8:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott
    Lurndal)
    wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone
    (for
    medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for
    which
    annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the
    doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor
    said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work
    would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would
    /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up
    from
    surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    I was able to return to work the next day after each of my cataract
    surgeries. (One for each eye.)

    Well, good for you.

    Being physically capable of getting there, or even surviving the day,
    is not the point: the point is, I would not have performed my duties
    propertly.

    There is more to a job than just showing up.

    (Indeed, the first time I was required to do eye-drops for a month as
    part of inducing the eye to stop quivering in fear after being cut
    open unexpectedly. I did this before eating lunch. When I managed to
    get the drop in, I could feel it down to my toes, and the first call
    after lunch was often /very/ strange.)

    Sounds like you had something more complicated than a lasik lens >replacement. My sympathies.

    Actually, it worked just fine.

    But no mention of "lasik". Both cataract surgeries were, AFAIK,
    non-laser.

    This was in the late 90's, BTW. Times have, no doubt, changed.

    The second one didn't require eyedrops after the first week. It is the
    first one that kept one of the two going for a month.

    Different doctors, different details (the second had a folding lens,
    which presumably meant the incision was smaller; the first did not).

    I still have the cards for the inserted lenses in my wallet, in case
    they are ever needed. What they would be needed /for/ I have no idea.
    IIRC, each has a serial number on it and other information.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 30, 2026 08:31:50
    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 22:05:34 -0700, Robert Woodward
    <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    In article <10stmmk$5jhk$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death???

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Are they counting only infants that drew breath when born? Because, it
    is my impression (and perhaps Lynn's as well) that the USA definition of

    infant mortality includes full term pregnancies that ended up with a
    dead infant at birth.

    As the man said, "with infant mortality, you can claim there are
    differences over what constitutes in 'infant'".

    Thank you for illustrating the point.

    This appears to be a /comparison/ of rates all using the /same
    definition/. It really doesn't matter what the definition is; the US
    is worse off than other countries.

    So, what else is new?
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 30, 2026 14:16:06
    On 4/30/2026 11:28 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 17:50:29 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/29/2026 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:29:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 8:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>>>> wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone (for >>>>>>> medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for which >>>>>> annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the
    doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor
    said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work
    would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would
    /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up from >>>>> surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    I was able to return to work the next day after each of my cataract
    surgeries. (One for each eye.)

    Well, good for you.

    Being physically capable of getting there, or even surviving the day,
    is not the point: the point is, I would not have performed my duties
    propertly.

    There is more to a job than just showing up.

    (Indeed, the first time I was required to do eye-drops for a month as
    part of inducing the eye to stop quivering in fear after being cut
    open unexpectedly. I did this before eating lunch. When I managed to
    get the drop in, I could feel it down to my toes, and the first call
    after lunch was often /very/ strange.)

    Sounds like you had something more complicated than a lasik lens
    replacement. My sympathies.

    Actually, it worked just fine.

    But no mention of "lasik". Both cataract surgeries were, AFAIK,
    non-laser.

    This was in the late 90's, BTW. Times have, no doubt, changed.

    The second one didn't require eyedrops after the first week. It is the
    first one that kept one of the two going for a month.

    Different doctors, different details (the second had a folding lens,
    which presumably meant the incision was smaller; the first did not).

    I still have the cards for the inserted lenses in my wallet, in case
    they are ever needed. What they would be needed /for/ I have no idea.
    IIRC, each has a serial number on it and other information.


    My wife just got cataract surgery in the last month. She was in some
    pain, but within a couple days she saw real change in the quality of
    her vision, both in sharpness and in color.

    I'm probably going to need it myself in the next few years.

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 30, 2026 14:22:20
    On 4/28/2026 7:29 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 8:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone (for
    medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for which >>> annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the
    doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor
    said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work
    would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would
    /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up from
    surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    I was able to return to work the next day after each of my cataract surgeries.ÿ (One for each eye.)

    Me too. And I drove over to see my mother the same day after each of
    the surgeries.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 30, 2026 14:24:15
    On 4/30/2026 1:16 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    On 4/30/2026 11:28 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 17:50:29 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/29/2026 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:29:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 8:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>>>>> wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone >>>>>>>> (for
    medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine,
    for which
    annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the
    doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor >>>>>> said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work >>>>>> would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would >>>>>> /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up from >>>>>> surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    I was able to return to work the next day after each of my cataract
    surgeries.ÿ (One for each eye.)

    Well, good for you.

    Being physically capable of getting there, or even surviving the day,
    is not the point: the point is, I would not have performed my duties
    propertly.

    There is more to a job than just showing up.

    (Indeed, the first time I was required to do eye-drops for a month as
    part of inducing the eye to stop quivering in fear after being cut
    open unexpectedly. I did this before eating lunch. When I managed to
    get the drop in, I could feel it down to my toes, and the first call
    after lunch was often /very/ strange.)

    Sounds like you had something more complicated than a lasik lens
    replacement.ÿ My sympathies.

    Actually, it worked just fine.

    But no mention of "lasik". Both cataract surgeries were, AFAIK,
    non-laser.

    This was in the late 90's, BTW. Times have, no doubt, changed.

    The second one didn't require eyedrops after the first week. It is the
    first one that kept one of the two going for a month.

    Different doctors, different details (the second had a folding lens,
    which presumably meant the incision was smaller; the first did not).

    I still have the cards for the inserted lenses in my wallet, in case
    they are ever needed. What they would be needed /for/ I have no idea.
    IIRC, each has a serial number on it and other information.


    My wife just got cataract surgery in the last month. She was in some
    pain, but within a couple days she saw real change in the quality of
    her vision, both in sharpness and in color.

    I'm probably going to need it myself in the next few years.

    pt

    I thought I went colour blind when I was 45 in 2005. I could not tell
    the difference between red and green. Traffic lights were a mystery.

    The day after my first cataract surgery, I suddenly realized I could see
    the red and the green on the traffic lights.

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jay Morris@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 30, 2026 15:36:16
    On 4/30/2026 2:24 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/30/2026 1:16 PM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
    On 4/30/2026 11:28 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 17:50:29 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/29/2026 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 17:29:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
    <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 8:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott
    Lurndal)
    wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see
    anyone (for
    medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, >>>>>>>> for which
    annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the
    doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor >>>>>>> said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work >>>>>>> would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would >>>>>>> /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up >>>>>>> from
    surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    I was able to return to work the next day after each of my cataract >>>>>> surgeries.ÿ (One for each eye.)

    Well, good for you.

    Being physically capable of getting there, or even surviving the day, >>>>> is not the point: the point is, I would not have performed my duties >>>>> propertly.

    There is more to a job than just showing up.

    (Indeed, the first time I was required to do eye-drops for a month as >>>>> part of inducing the eye to stop quivering in fear after being cut
    open unexpectedly. I did this before eating lunch. When I managed to >>>>> get the drop in, I could feel it down to my toes, and the first call >>>>> after lunch was often /very/ strange.)

    Sounds like you had something more complicated than a lasik lens
    replacement.ÿ My sympathies.

    Actually, it worked just fine.

    But no mention of "lasik". Both cataract surgeries were, AFAIK,
    non-laser.

    This was in the late 90's, BTW. Times have, no doubt, changed.

    The second one didn't require eyedrops after the first week. It is the
    first one that kept one of the two going for a month.

    Different doctors, different details (the second had a folding lens,
    which presumably meant the incision was smaller; the first did not).

    I still have the cards for the inserted lenses in my wallet, in case
    they are ever needed. What they would be needed /for/ I have no idea.
    IIRC, each has a serial number on it and other information.


    My wife just got cataract surgery in the last month. She was in some
    pain, but within a couple days she saw real change in the quality of
    her vision, both in sharpness and in color.

    I'm probably going to need it myself in the next few years.

    pt

    I thought I went colour blind when I was 45 in 2005.ÿ I could not tell
    the difference between red and green.ÿ Traffic lights were a mystery.

    The day after my first cataract surgery, I suddenly realized I could see
    the red and the green on the traffic lights.

    Lynn


    I was amazed at how bright everything was. Kind of threw me off balance between the two surgeries (two weeks apart).

    When mentioning this to a friend he told me his mother had her house
    interior painted an off-white color, then had cataract surgery a few
    months later. Turned out it was intensely white.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jay Morris@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 30, 2026 21:39:31
    On 4/30/2026 3:53 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
    Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me> wrote or quoted:
    When mentioning this to a friend he told me his mother had her house
    interior painted an off-white color, then had cataract surgery a few
    months later. Turned out it was intensely white.

    I'm not sure. Before his surgery he also should have noted that every
    piece of white paper and every white egg etc. has the same off-white
    color, so his visual system or his mind would have corrected this.

    In other words, when you turn on the red lights for a party, you do
    not believe that your white walls are now red. Since everything is
    now red by the same amount, you subtract this and still believe that
    your walls are as white as before. Or when you put on red glasses.

    Artificial light or evening light is warmer (kind of yellowish or
    reddish) compared to the blue morning light, yet we do not experience
    white walls or other objects changing their color during the course
    of the day because or visual system corrects for constant offsets.



    It happened so slowly to me, over 20+ years, that I didn't notice the
    changes. Our gray walls are a lighter gray than I thought they were, I
    never noticed white paper was not as white as it should have been, or
    that things were just over all darker. I assume it was the same for her.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Robert Woodward@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 30, 2026 21:52:46
    In article <cct6vkhsc9j26j1npaquk1jp83r2cn5qsk@4ax.com>,
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 22:05:34 -0700, Robert Woodward
    <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    In article <10stmmk$5jhk$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death???

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Are they counting only infants that drew breath when born? Because, it
    is my impression (and perhaps Lynn's as well) that the USA definition of >infant mortality includes full term pregnancies that ended up with a
    dead infant at birth.

    As the man said, "with infant mortality, you can claim there are
    differences over what constitutes in 'infant'".

    Thank you for illustrating the point.

    This appears to be a /comparison/ of rates all using the /same
    definition/. It really doesn't matter what the definition is; the US
    is worse off than other countries.


    If the comparison is done using the same definition, somebody had to
    adjust the data to the same definition. I have doubts that can be done
    without checking each death certificate in every country in the
    comparison. I have doubts that they had the budget to do that.

    --
    "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
    Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?-----------------------------------------------------
    Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Friday, May 01, 2026 08:38:37
    On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 14:22:20 -0500, Lynn McGuire
    <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 7:29 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 8:58 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 19:11:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    <snippo>

    My point is that if you are /well/ you do not need to see anyone
    (for
    medical reasons).

    I would expect that there is a benefit to preventive medicine, for
    which
    annual screenings are beneficial.

    Of course there is a benefit to preventive medicine: the
    doctors/nurses/others make more money.

    Gotta pay off those student loans /somehow/.

    This is similar to my experience after cataract surgery: the doctor
    said (after the next morning's appointment) that returning to work
    would be fine. I knew darn well it would be anything but (how would
    /you/ like to talk about a tax debt with someone feeling beat up from
    surgery?), so I took the rest of the week off.

    I was able to return to work the next day after each of my cataract
    surgeries.? (One for each eye.)

    Me too. And I drove over to see my mother the same day after each of
    the surgeries.

    But were you trying to deal with people who owed taxes and, all too
    often, were motivated to call in because their bank account or wages
    had been levied?
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Friday, May 01, 2026 08:48:27
    On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 14:16:06 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    <snippo>

    My wife just got cataract surgery in the last month. She was in some
    pain, but within a couple days she saw real change in the quality of
    her vision, both in sharpness and in color.

    After my first cataract surgery, I was amazed at how bright the world,
    and its colors, were.

    Apparently, as the lenses we are born with age, they also turn the
    world yellow[1]. Among, perhaps, having other effects. And this
    happened so slowly I never noticed.

    [1] I'm no longer sure where I got "yellow". It might be something I
    read, or experiments with Window's color selector tools, or just how I conceptualized the difference.

    Perhaps older people see the world differently from the young, in
    part, because it has a lot more yellow in it. IOW, maybe those are are
    glummer really /are/ seeing a glummer world than they used to.

    And, yes, the new lens is usually designed to sharpen things up a bit
    as well.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Friday, May 01, 2026 08:53:33
    On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 21:52:46 -0700, Robert Woodward
    <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    In article <cct6vkhsc9j26j1npaquk1jp83r2cn5qsk@4ax.com>,
    Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 22:05:34 -0700, Robert Woodward
    <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    In article <10stmmk$5jhk$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA.
    Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death???

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Are they counting only infants that drew breath when born? Because,
    it
    is my impression (and perhaps Lynn's as well) that the USA definition
    of
    infant mortality includes full term pregnancies that ended up with a
    dead infant at birth.

    As the man said, "with infant mortality, you can claim there are
    differences over what constitutes in 'infant'".

    Thank you for illustrating the point.

    This appears to be a /comparison/ of rates all using the /same
    definition/. It really doesn't matter what the definition is; the US
    is worse off than other countries.


    If the comparison is done using the same definition, somebody had to
    adjust the data to the same definition. I have doubts that can be done >without checking each death certificate in every country in the
    comparison. I have doubts that they had the budget to do that.

    Even though it is all from the /same source/?

    It isn't as if he is pulling this stuff from each country's Official
    Web Site.

    The USA, on the Federal level, is a failed state. The acts of piracy
    committed by its military show this clearly. As do the antics of its
    President, who manages to make banana republics look good by
    comparison.

    And our medical non-system has been a problem for some time. Even
    Robin Cook, for all his novels slamming HMOs, also wrote one slamming "concierge care", which was a system whereby you paid an annual
    enrollment fee to your doctor and he was not only available 24/7 but
    did house calls.

    Dr. Welby is far into our past as a reality. I suspect he was mostly
    nostalgia by the time the TV show appeared.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From oldernow@3:633/10 to All on Friday, May 01, 2026 16:13:47
    On 2026-05-01, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    The USA, on the Federal level, is a failed
    state. The acts of piracy committed by its
    military show this clearly. As do the antics
    of its President, who manages to make banana
    republics look good by comparison.

    Is there an objective measure of "presidential
    antics" that all might see the comparison, or
    is the measure your personal/private beliefs
    "supported" by additional personal/private
    beliefs and/or context?

    If it's the latter, then all I'm reading in the
    above is unhinged derangement.

    (Keeping in mind, of course, that there is no
    objective measure of "unhinged derangement",
    either, meaning my "measurement" thereof is
    rooted in personal/private beliefs
    "supported" by additional
    personal/private beliefs
    and/or context....)

    --
    v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
    | this line was supposed to be clever | ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Friday, May 01, 2026 16:29:14
    On 4/30/2026 1:05 AM, Robert Woodward wrote:
    In article <10stmmk$5jhk$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death??

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Are they counting only infants that drew breath when born? Because, it
    is my impression (and perhaps Lynn's as well) that the USA definition of infant mortality includes full term pregnancies that ended up with a
    dead infant at birth.


    You can look this stuff up.

    Short answer: No, still births aren't counted.

    Long answer: STill no.

    "Infant mortality refers to the death of a live-born baby before
    reaching 1 year of age.

    To be counted, the baby must show any sign of life after delivery
    (breathing, heartbeat, voluntary movement)."

    pt




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Friday, May 01, 2026 16:31:55
    On 4/30/2026 11:31 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 22:05:34 -0700, Robert Woodward
    <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    In article <10stmmk$5jhk$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence Dƒ??Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ƒ??deathƒ???

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Are they counting only infants that drew breath when born? Because, it
    is my impression (and perhaps Lynn's as well) that the USA definition of
    infant mortality includes full term pregnancies that ended up with a
    dead infant at birth.

    As the man said, "with infant mortality, you can claim there are
    differences over what constitutes in 'infant'".

    Thank you for illustrating the point.

    This appears to be a /comparison/ of rates all using the /same
    definition/. It really doesn't matter what the definition is; the US
    is worse off than other countries.

    So, what else is new?

    No, still births aren't counted. I was mentioning a hypothetical, which
    I have now investigated.

    "Infant mortality refers to the death of a live-born baby before
    reaching 1 year of age.

    To be counted, the baby must show any sign of life after delivery
    (breathing, heartbeat, voluntary movement)."

    Don't assume something you don't know actually favors your
    position.

    pt




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Friday, May 01, 2026 18:25:49
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 12:53 PM, William Hyde wrote:


    My Canadian customers complain bitterly about Canadian healthcare.
    Several of them have private health insurance that is good for private healthcare in Canada and in the USA.

    Next time you meet them regale them with my hideous socialist
    experiences of yesterday!

    At my socialist registration in the socialist hospital there were twice
    as many people in front of me as usual. As I steeled myself for a five
    minute wait, however, it turned out that the two in front of me were
    together, so I "only" had to wait two and a half minutes.

    Dodged a socialist bullet there!

    The next line looked even worse. Infinitely many times more socialist
    people in the socialist line than I had experienced before.

    But to my great relief they were only passing, so as usual I had no wait.

    Socialist bullet #2 dodged!.

    But socialist bullet number three his me squarely. I had to wait 10,
    that's 10(!) minutes past my appointment time, Oh the agony! Luckily I
    had some good old American (/British) medicine to pass the time - some
    comic essays by Bill Bryson. Otherwise I might have died.

    Well, I did have an evil socialist discussion with my evil socialist
    doctor on the evil physics of socialist Bremsstrahlung. Turns out she
    had a doctorate in (socialist) medical physics.


    "Bremsstrahlung": the very word reeks of Marxism! I'm sure it's in "Das Kapital"!

    So I was a full sixth of an hour late to the Bremsstrahlung machine. I
    tried to ask it if its electrons, too, were tardy, but it didn't speak English.

    And on the way out I got socialistic-ally lost in the socialist hospital
    as it is so socialistic-ally large and, on principle, I don't read
    socialist signage.

    Luckily, in this socialist mini-state there is a capitalist enclave
    where I could buy coffee and a habanero wrap. Bliss. But not enough habanero, naturally. Damned socialist capitalists!

    Then I took socialist transport home. Oh, the humanity!

    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Friday, May 01, 2026 18:31:08
    Tony Nance wrote:
    On 4/29/26 4:48 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 12:53 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it >>>>>>> would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for
    half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.


    In the past year I've had about twenty five medical appointments.

    I've been to the ER five times in the past six months four times in
    the past ten days (nothing dangerous this week, just painful).

    I have five treatments lined up for the next two weeks, and already
    have eight more appointments in the next couple of months thereafter.
    Further surgery might be on the table for June (nothing dangerous).

    I used to hate the ER, but yesterday when on an unrelated matter I
    walked past the Ambulatory Treatment Centre I felt like going in -
    but maybe that's the morphine talking.ÿ Or Stockholm syndrome, or
    something.

    They offered to fix my hernia, but I said no as it doesn't hurt and
    is not likely ever to do so.ÿ It's true that my career as a bathing
    suit model is somewhat compromised, but I've had a good run.

    If there's a limit, I have not found it.


    William Hyde

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    Because they're well off people who want to buy their way to the head
    of the line at the expense of people who need treatment more urgently?

    Why do Americans come here?ÿ They do, in numbers.

    Remember that I lived in the US for ten years.ÿ While I have had some
    good experiences with the US healthcare system (Duke university
    hospital), I've had bad ones too (Texas).

    Basically I got along fine in the US, because I always had health
    insurance.ÿ But certainly not better than in Canada.

    At one point in Texas I was feeling a little burned out, and I asked
    if I could be assigned teaching (I sat in on some lectures and decided
    that the students really needed someone with some teaching skill).ÿ I
    was fine with the significantly lower pay this would involve.ÿ But it
    turned out that the teaching position did not come with life
    insurance.ÿ I would have had to pay $600 a month to get it, and on
    this lower salary that just wasn't affordable.ÿ So I did not teach.
    That sort of dilemma should not exist.

    Most humanities professors at A&M have only a nine month salary, and
    that not terribly generous.ÿ In the other three months they have to
    pay COBRA.ÿ People with a family to support basically can't afford
    these jobs.


    Re: needing COBRA
    Do you happen to know if that's still true now?

    Nowadays, all the tenured/tenure-track faculty in other states I know
    about (which does not include Texas at the moment) are considered
    "9/12" or "9/11" employees, which (amongst other things) means you get
    paid your salary over the 9 months of the academic year, but there's no interruption in benefits over the 12 months.

    I've not been to A&M since 2011, so I can't say for sure. On the other
    hand none of my contacts there have told me of any change. But they're
    full time.

    I am pleased but not that surprised to hear that other jurisdictions
    follow a more civilized practice.

    Maybe the ACA has helped?


    William Hyde

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, May 02, 2026 08:26:22
    On Fri, 1 May 2026 16:31:55 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/30/2026 11:31 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 22:05:34 -0700, Robert Woodward
    <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    In article <10stmmk$5jhk$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA.
    Be
    careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ?death???

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Are they counting only infants that drew breath when born? Because,
    it
    is my impression (and perhaps Lynn's as well) that the USA definition
    of
    infant mortality includes full term pregnancies that ended up with a
    dead infant at birth.

    As the man said, "with infant mortality, you can claim there are
    differences over what constitutes in 'infant'".

    Thank you for illustrating the point.

    This appears to be a /comparison/ of rates all using the /same
    definition/. It really doesn't matter what the definition is; the US
    is worse off than other countries.

    So, what else is new?

    No, still births aren't counted. I was mentioning a hypothetical, which
    I have now investigated.

    "Infant mortality refers to the death of a live-born baby before
    reaching 1 year of age.

    To be counted, the baby must show any sign of life after delivery >(breathing, heartbeat, voluntary movement)."

    Don't assume something you don't know actually favors your
    position.

    Well, somebody's position, anyway. Mine here was just that the stats
    all came from the same source so quibbling was irrelevant.

    And, anyway, if we looked everything up, where would the fun of these discussions come from? It is the way-out ideas that entertain, not the
    stolid facts.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, May 02, 2026 22:05:37
    On 5/2/2026 11:26 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Fri, 1 May 2026 16:31:55 -0400, Cryptoengineer
    <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/30/2026 11:31 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Apr 2026 22:05:34 -0700, Robert Woodward
    <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

    In article <10stmmk$5jhk$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 4/28/2026 9:19 PM, Lawrence Dƒ??Oliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Apr 2026 16:25:19 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    The definitions for those two terms, life expectancy and infant
    mortality, are not the same inside the USA and outside the USA. Be >>>>>>> careful using those stats.

    Is there some different way of defining ƒ??deathƒ???

    Lynn is giving the usual conservative talking point when
    the disparities are pointed out.

    The life expectancy number can't really be explained away,
    but with infant mortality, you can claim there are differences
    over what constitutes in 'infant'.

    However, I was using the under-five mortality rate, compiled
    by the World Bank, so that ambiguity does not apply.

    Are they counting only infants that drew breath when born? Because, it >>>> is my impression (and perhaps Lynn's as well) that the USA definition of >>>> infant mortality includes full term pregnancies that ended up with a
    dead infant at birth.

    As the man said, "with infant mortality, you can claim there are
    differences over what constitutes in 'infant'".

    Thank you for illustrating the point.

    This appears to be a /comparison/ of rates all using the /same
    definition/. It really doesn't matter what the definition is; the US
    is worse off than other countries.

    So, what else is new?

    No, still births aren't counted. I was mentioning a hypothetical, which
    I have now investigated.

    "Infant mortality refers to the death of a live-born baby before
    reaching 1 year of age.

    To be counted, the baby must show any sign of life after delivery
    (breathing, heartbeat, voluntary movement)."

    Don't assume something you don't know actually favors your
    position.

    Well, somebody's position, anyway. Mine here was just that the stats
    all came from the same source so quibbling was irrelevant.

    And, anyway, if we looked everything up, where would the fun of these discussions come from? It is the way-out ideas that entertain, not the
    stolid facts.


    I was using the US's dismal life expectancy and infant mortality
    figures, compared to other rich countries which have 'socialist'
    medical systems, to suggest that those systems produce a betting
    result than the US health "system".

    Those who these facts challenged called into question the validity
    of my data (indeed, I pointed out one ambiguity myself). So, I
    went and confirmed the data's integrity.

    I don't argue for the sake of argument. I argue to either change
    someone's mind (if they are psychologically mature enough to
    realize they were mistaken), or to have my own mind changed when I
    realize I was mistaken.

    Both outcomes happen.

    pt

    pt

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Nance@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, May 03, 2026 08:47:35
    On 5/1/26 6:31 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Tony Nance wrote:
    On 4/29/26 4:48 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/28/2026 12:53 PM, William Hyde wrote:
    Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 4/27/2026 8:23 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Apr 2026 15:29:41 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote:

    I would love to see Medicare For All but I am convinced that it >>>>>>>> would
    bankrupt the USA.

    Countries with Socialist-style healthcare systems can do it for >>>>>>> half the
    cost per capita of the US health-insurance system.

    Yes, by limiting medical treatments to the people of the country.


    In the past year I've had about twenty five medical appointments.

    I've been to the ER five times in the past six months four times in >>>>> the past ten days (nothing dangerous this week, just painful).

    I have five treatments lined up for the next two weeks, and already
    have eight more appointments in the next couple of months thereafter. >>>>> Further surgery might be on the table for June (nothing dangerous).

    I used to hate the ER, but yesterday when on an unrelated matter I
    walked past the Ambulatory Treatment Centre I felt like going in -
    but maybe that's the morphine talking.ÿ Or Stockholm syndrome, or
    something.

    They offered to fix my hernia, but I said no as it doesn't hurt and >>>>> is not likely ever to do so.ÿ It's true that my career as a bathing >>>>> suit model is somewhat compromised, but I've had a good run.

    If there's a limit, I have not found it.


    William Hyde

    Why do so many Canadians come to the USA for healthcare then ?

    Because they're well off people who want to buy their way to the head
    of the line at the expense of people who need treatment more urgently?

    Why do Americans come here?ÿ They do, in numbers.

    Remember that I lived in the US for ten years.ÿ While I have had some
    good experiences with the US healthcare system (Duke university
    hospital), I've had bad ones too (Texas).

    Basically I got along fine in the US, because I always had health
    insurance.ÿ But certainly not better than in Canada.

    At one point in Texas I was feeling a little burned out, and I asked
    if I could be assigned teaching (I sat in on some lectures and
    decided that the students really needed someone with some teaching
    skill).ÿ I was fine with the significantly lower pay this would
    involve.ÿ But it turned out that the teaching position did not come
    with life insurance.ÿ I would have had to pay $600 a month to get it,
    and on this lower salary that just wasn't affordable.ÿ So I did not
    teach. That sort of dilemma should not exist.

    Most humanities professors at A&M have only a nine month salary, and
    that not terribly generous.ÿ In the other three months they have to
    pay COBRA.ÿ People with a family to support basically can't afford
    these jobs.


    Re: needing COBRA
    Do you happen to know if that's still true now?

    Nowadays, all the tenured/tenure-track faculty in other states I know
    about (which does not include Texas at the moment) are considered
    "9/12" or "9/11" employees, which (amongst other things) means you get
    paid your salary over the 9 months of the academic year, but there's
    no interruption in benefits over the 12 months.

    I've not been to A&M since 2011, so I can't say for sure.ÿ On the other
    hand none of my contacts there have told me of any change.ÿ But they're
    full time.

    I am pleased but not that surprised to hear that other jurisdictions
    follow a more civilized practice.

    Maybe the ACA has helped?


    Oh, great point. I had forgotten (or maybe never made) the ACA
    connection. That's surely a big factor.

    Tony



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)