• Re: IP of e-mail provider liisted on SBL

    From John Hasler@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, March 28, 2026 15:30:01
    Switch to a paid provider. I recommend Fastmail (fastmail.com).
    They provide good service and they will, if you so choose, help you
    register your own domain which will make your email adress portable.
    --
    John Hasler
    john@sugarbit.com
    Elmwood, WI USA

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From debian-user@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, March 28, 2026 16:40:02
    john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> wrote:
    On 3/28/26 3:23 PM, John Hasler wrote:
    Switch to a paid provider. I recommend Fastmail (fastmail.com).
    They provide good service and they will, if you so choose, help you register your own domain which will make your email adress
    portable.

    My mail.com's e-mail address is only used for things that are public,
    so I was hoping not to have to pay for something that I only use on
    mailing list.

    Thank you.

    Sorry, I don't understand. What domain are spamhaus blocking? For
    mail.com they say "mail.com has no issues".

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From debian-user@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, March 28, 2026 17:20:01
    john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> wrote:
    On 3/28/26 4:30 PM, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
    john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> wrote:
    On 3/28/26 3:23 PM, John Hasler wrote:
    Switch to a paid provider. I recommend Fastmail (fastmail.com).
    They provide good service and they will, if you so choose, help
    you register your own domain which will make your email adress
    portable.

    My mail.com's e-mail address is only used for things that are
    public, so I was hoping not to have to pay for something that I
    only use on mailing list.

    Thank you.

    Sorry, I don't understand. What domain are spamhaus blocking? For
    mail.com they say "mail.com has no issues".


    https://postmaster.mail.com/en/email-server

    The free accounts are graced with the poor reputation IPv4 addresses.

    Again spamhaus says they have no issues? https://check.spamhaus.org/results?query=mout-xforward.mail.com

    Are you sure it's spamhaus causing your problems? What makes you think
    so?

    But as John Hasler said, switch to another provider if your free one
    has problems. You can't expect them to spend much effort fixing
    problems on free accounts.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Karen Lewellen@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, March 28, 2026 18:10:02
    If I should start a different thread for this, let me know.
    Still, may I ask how hard it is to host one's own mail server?
    I have reasons to ask, would even pay s someone to do this for me, where my professional domains are concerned.
    Best,
    Kare



    On Sat, 28 Mar 2026, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:

    john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> wrote:
    On 3/28/26 3:23 PM, John Hasler wrote:
    Switch to a paid provider. I recommend Fastmail (fastmail.com).
    They provide good service and they will, if you so choose, help you
    register your own domain which will make your email adress
    portable.

    My mail.com's e-mail address is only used for things that are public,
    so I was hoping not to have to pay for something that I only use on
    mailing list.

    Thank you.

    Sorry, I don't understand. What domain are spamhaus blocking? For
    mail.com they say "mail.com has no issues".



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From nwe@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 29, 2026 01:10:01
    On 3/28/26 11:17 AM, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:
    Again spamhaus says they have no issues? https://check.spamhaus.org/results?query=mout-xforward.mail.com
    Domains and ip addresses can be separately blacklisted. I like to check
    each on https://multirbl.valli.org/lookup
    There it is showing one blacklist on the domain and multiple blacklists
    on both their 'good' and 'bad' ip addresses, only their 'bad' ip
    addresses are a lot worse.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Andy Smith@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 29, 2026 14:00:01
    Hi,

    On Sat, Mar 28, 2026 at 02:22:02PM +0100, john doe wrote:
    The lovely PPLs at [1] are blocking the IPs from my e-mail provider.
    Is there anything that I can do other than changing e-mail provider?

    You can ask your email service provider to fix the problem and get
    de-listed by Spamhaus.

    You can ask your recipients to allowlist you specifically so it doesn't
    matter that their email service providers use Spamhaus for blocklisting.

    Neither of these will probably be very effective. In the first case your
    ESP will probably just give you the run-around and not do anything,
    especially if you aren't paying for the service. In the second case your recipients probably won't know what to do, be able to do it, or care to
    do it.

    Being listed by Spamhaus is fairly detrimental to email delivery so if
    your ESP doesn't fix it quickly they probably aren't a good one to use
    and thus your question is answered.

    Thanks,
    Andy

    --
    https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Byunghee HWANG (???)@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 29, 2026 14:50:02
    Is there anything that I can do other than changing e-mail provider?
    Hellow John. Gmail is the most suitable. It is the best free email
    service. Some Korean open source developers i know are also using
    Gmail. All roads lead to Rome(Gmail).

    Sincerely, Byunghee
    --
    ^????? _????_ ?????_^))//


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From debian-user@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 29, 2026 16:50:05
    nwe <nwe@gitcoding.net> wrote:
    On 3/28/26 11:17 AM, debian-user@howorth.org.uk wrote:

    Again spamhaus says they have no issues? https://check.spamhaus.org/results?query=mout-xforward.mail.com

    Domains and ip addresses can be separately blacklisted. I like to
    check each on https://multirbl.valli.org/lookup

    The OP specifically claimed problems at spamhaus.

    There it is showing one blacklist on the domain and multiple
    blacklists on both their 'good' and 'bad' ip addresses, only their
    'bad' ip addresses are a lot worse.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From debian-user@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 29, 2026 17:00:02
    Byunghee HWANG (???) <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> wrote:
    Is there anything that I can do other than changing e-mail
    provider?

    Hellow John. Gmail is the most suitable. It is the best free email
    service. Some Korean open source developers i know are also using
    Gmail. All roads lead to Rome(Gmail).

    I disagree because of gmail's insistence on DKIM. They don't deliver
    without it.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From John Hasler@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 29, 2026 17:00:03
    Byunghee HWANG writes:
    Gmail is the most suitable. It is the best free email service

    That's damning with faint praise.
    --
    John Hasler
    john@sugarbit.com
    Elmwood, WI USA

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Andy Smith@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 29, 2026 18:00:01
    Hi,

    On Sun, Mar 29, 2026 at 09:42:13PM +0900, Byunghee HWANG (???) wrote:
    Is there anything that I can do other than changing e-mail provider?

    Hellow John. Gmail is the most suitable.

    I would disagree and I think quite a few other people would as well.

    It is the best free email service.

    However, I also think if someone isn't willing to pay for it then they
    don't take it very seriously and so it doesn't really matter. I'm not
    even sure if gmail could be said to be the best of the free ones though.

    All roads lead to Rome(Gmail).

    This kind of thing is why no matter how bad gmail is, or how
    self-centred their decisions are, we all have to go along with it.
    Because if one of my users can't email someone at gmail it must be my
    fault, right? It's the best free email service in the world and all
    roads lead to gmail, after all.

    Thanks,
    Andy

    --
    https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Byunghee HWANG (???)@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 29, 2026 19:00:01
    debian-user@howorth.org.uk writes:
    Byunghee HWANG (???) <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> wrote:
    Is there anything that I can do other than changing e-mail
    provider?

    Hellow John. Gmail is the most suitable. It is the best free email
    service. Some Korean open source developers i know are also using
    Gmail. All roads lead to Rome(Gmail).

    I disagree because of gmail's insistence on DKIM. They don't deliver
    without it.
    I believe 2006, when abnormal drafts like SPF/SenderID were created, was
    a major stain on the history of the IETF. On the contrary, 2007, when Domainkey/DKIM became established, was a happy year -- at least in my
    memory. DKIM does not hurt forwarding during the email delivery process.
    As you know, i'm email forwarder.

    Sincerely, Byunghee
    --
    ^????? _????_ ?????_^))//


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Byunghee HWANG (???)@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 31, 2026 09:50:01
    Hellow John,
    John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> writes:
    Byunghee HWANG writes:
    Gmail is the most suitable. It is the best free email service

    That's damning with faint praise.
    If i were considering a "paid service," i would choose Fastmail.

    Sincerely, Byunghee
    --
    ^????? _????_ ?????_^))//


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Byunghee HWANG (???)@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 31, 2026 10:00:01
    Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> writes:
    Hi,

    On Sun, Mar 29, 2026 at 09:42:13PM +0900, Byunghee HWANG (???) wrote:
    Is there anything that I can do other than changing e-mail provider?

    Hellow John. Gmail is the most suitable.

    I would disagree and I think quite a few other people would as well.

    It is the best free email service.

    However, I also think if someone isn't willing to pay for it then they
    don't take it very seriously and so it doesn't really matter. I'm not
    even sure if gmail could be said to be the best of the free ones though.

    All roads lead to Rome(Gmail).

    This kind of thing is why no matter how bad gmail is, or how
    self-centred their decisions are, we all have to go along with it.
    Because if one of my users can't email someone at gmail it must be my
    fault, right? It's the best free email service in the world and all
    roads lead to gmail, after all.
    Andy, i deeply empathize with your story. Even so, i am also in a
    situation where i cannot escape Gmail in real life. My last final Inbox
    is soyeomul@gmail.com, thanks!

    Sincerely, Byunghee
    --
    ^????? _????_ ?????_^))//


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From nwe@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 31, 2026 20:30:01
    On 3/29/26 7:42 AM, Byunghee HWANG (\ud669\ubcd1\ud76c) wrote:
    All roads lead to Rome(Gmail).
    That is google's dream. But one road didn't connect.
    I was a gmail fan until one day I tried logging into my gmail account
    with a new device from a different location. I correctly entered my
    password at the first try. They emailed a code to my yahoo mail account
    so I got that and entered it. Next they texted a code to my old and gone
    phone number. When I was unable to do anything about that, they locked
    my gmail account for about a week.
    After hours of frustration I finally made contact with a real person at
    google who bluntly told me there is just nothing they can do until the
    account lockout period expires.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Andy Smith@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 31, 2026 20:50:01
    Hi,

    On Tue, Mar 31, 2026 at 04:53:27PM +0900, Byunghee HWANG (???) wrote:
    Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> writes:
    On Sun, Mar 29, 2026 at 09:42:13PM +0900, Byunghee HWANG (???) wrote:
    All roads lead to Rome(Gmail).

    This kind of thing is why no matter how bad gmail is, or how
    self-centred their decisions are, we all have to go along with it.
    Because if one of my users can't email someone at gmail it must be my fault, right? It's the best free email service in the world and all
    roads lead to gmail, after all.

    Andy, i deeply empathize with your story. Even so, i am also in a
    situation where i cannot escape Gmail in real life.

    I don't want to harp on this but the sort of thing I'm trying to point
    out is that for example over on the mailop mailing list you are
    participating in this thread even today:

    https://www.mail-archive.com/mailop@mailop.org/msg26412.html

    (I'm not stalking you; we're both subscribers! ?)

    where an admin with a 1,400 subscriber Mailman mailing list that they
    have been operating for years is at their wits' end trying to get mail
    to their gmail.com subscribers.

    Meanwhile you are also on *this* mailing list telling everyone that
    gmail is the best email service provider.

    All participants in mailop should be aware by now that gmail
    consistently provides the most difficulty, the most aggravation, and the
    least assistance to small senders, where "small" is something like "less
    than 5k emails per day". It is a black box for them/us. If we've
    followed all their (arbitrary) rules and still our users lose mails,
    there is no way forward for us.

    I know it's not the best because other ESPs do not give me and others
    anywhere near as much of a problem, and I am surprised to see anyone
    with actual knowledge of the sender side claim otherwise.

    Thanks,
    Andy

    --
    https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From John Hasler@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 31, 2026 20:50:02
    nwe writes:
    After hours of frustration I finally made contact with a real person
    at google who bluntly told me there is just nothing they can do until
    the account lockout period expires.

    An actual person at Google? Amazing.
    --
    John Hasler
    john@sugarbit.com
    Elmwood, WI USA

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alexander V. Makartsev@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 31, 2026 23:30:01
    On 3/31/26 23:04, Andy Smith wrote:
    Hi,

    On Tue, Mar 31, 2026 at 04:53:27PM +0900, Byunghee HWANG (\ud669\ubcd1\ud76c) wrote:
    Andy Smith<andy@strugglers.net> writes:
    On Sun, Mar 29, 2026 at 09:42:13PM +0900, Byunghee HWANG (\ud669\ubcd1\ud76c) wrote:
    All roads lead to Rome(Gmail).
    This kind of thing is why no matter how bad gmail is, or how
    self-centred their decisions are, we all have to go along with it.
    Because if one of my users can't email someone at gmail it must be my
    fault, right? It's the best free email service in the world and all
    roads lead to gmail, after all.
    Andy, i deeply empathize with your story. Even so, i am also in a
    situation where i cannot escape Gmail in real life.
    I don't want to harp on this but the sort of thing I'm trying to point
    out is that for example over on the mailop mailing list you are
    participating in this thread even today:

    https://www.mail-archive.com/mailop@mailop.org/msg26412.html

    (I'm not stalking you; we're both subscribers! \U0001f600)

    where an admin with a 1,400 subscriber Mailman mailing list that they
    have been operating for years is at their wits' end trying to get mail
    to their gmail.com subscribers.

    Meanwhile you are also on *this* mailing list telling everyone that
    gmail is the best email service provider.

    All participants in mailop should be aware by now that gmail
    consistently provides the most difficulty, the most aggravation, and the least assistance to small senders, where "small" is something like "less
    than 5k emails per day". It is a black box for them/us. If we've
    followed all their (arbitrary) rules and still our users lose mails,
    there is no way forward for us.

    I know it's not the best because other ESPs do not give me and others anywhere near as much of a problem, and I am surprised to see anyone
    with actual knowledge of the sender side claim otherwise.

    Thanks,
    Andy
    I don't want to sound like I'm defending Google, but there must be
    something wrong with their setup.
    Gmail doesn't give me trouble at all and I run a small scale (less than
    3k emails per week) mail server for my employer.
    It is a self sufficient mail server, not a relay, or "superhost", where
    I need to ask ISP, or other major mail provider to relay email through
    their servers for me.
    I've setup everything myself and the rules aren't something special, or something other providers in the world would ask.
    Basically, all you need is to setup DNS records. A, AAAA, MX, SRV, PTR,
    SPF, DKIM, DMARC all should be valid and setup correctly.
    SMTP server should use valid PKI certificate (Free Let's Encrypt is
    fine) and use modern TLS encryption protocols for mail exchange between servers.
    Sent messages should be DKIM signed and signatures valid.
    And of course I had to beg Spamhaus to remove IP from their PBL. (I have
    to do it annually)
    During the first week in the beginning my emails were dropped into
    Gmail's Spam folder, the same was for Microsoft's Outlook account,
    but after that, I think our domain has got some positive reputation and everything was smooth sailing ever since.

    --
    With kindest regards, Alexander.
    Debian - The universal operating system
    https://www.debian.org


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From John Hasler@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 31, 2026 23:40:01
    Alexander writes:
    Gmail doesn't give me trouble at all and I run a small scale (less
    than 3k emails per week) mail server for my employer.

    Do you operate a mailing list?
    --
    John Hasler
    john@sugarbit.com
    Elmwood, WI USA

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alexander V. Makartsev@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 01, 2026 02:30:01
    On 4/1/26 02:30, John Hasler wrote:
    Alexander writes:
    Gmail doesn't give me trouble at all and I run a small scale (less
    than 3k emails per week) mail server for my employer.
    Do you operate a mailing list?
    No.
    Still, and this is my uneducated guess, I don't think there is something exceptional required, other than getting "dkim=pass", "spf=pass",
    "dmarc=pass" and having additional "List*" in the headers.
    I mean "bendel.debian.org" does it right, so I don't see the reason why
    others can't do the same.

    --
    With kindest regards, Alexander.
    Debian - The universal operating system
    https://www.debian.org


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeffrey Walton@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 01, 2026 03:00:01
    On Tue, Mar 31, 2026 at 8:37?PM John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> wro
    te:

    Alexander writes:
    Gmail doesn't give me trouble at all and I run a small scale (less
    than 3k emails per week) mail server for my employer.

    Do you operate a mailing list?

    ++. Mailing lists are special.

    Also see Tolerating Mailing-List Modifications, <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chuang-mailing-list-modifications-04 .html>.

    Jeff

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Charles Curley@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 01, 2026 03:40:01
    On Tue, 31 Mar 2026 13:27:03 -0500
    John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> wrote:

    nwe writes:
    After hours of frustration I finally made contact with a real person
    at google who bluntly told me there is just nothing they can do
    until the account lockout period expires.

    An actual person at Google? Amazing.

    Indeed. How?

    I had thought of snail mailing such companies' address for legal
    service but I have not yet been desperate to filter my problem through
    a legal department.

    --
    Does anybody read signatures any more?

    https://charlescurley.com
    https://charlescurley.com/blog/

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jeffrey Walton@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 01, 2026 05:40:01
    On Tue, Mar 31, 2026 at 9:31?PM Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 31 Mar 2026 13:27:03 -0500
    John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> wrote:

    nwe writes:
    After hours of frustration I finally made contact with a real person
    at google who bluntly told me there is just nothing they can do
    until the account lockout period expires.

    An actual person at Google? Amazing.

    Indeed. How?

    I had thought of snail mailing such companies' address for legal
    service but I have not yet been desperate to filter my problem through
    a legal department.

    Off-topic, but we had to send a letter to Google's Legal to get
    something done. My mother fell for one of those Facebook scams when
    some buyer (scammer) says they are buying an item for sale, but tells
    the seller (my mother) that she needs to enter a code in a form to
    ensure the seller is not a scammer. As it turns out, the scam was for
    a Google phone number associated with my mother's GMail account.
    Google sent a code to my mother, and my mother forwarded it to the
    scammer. The letter to Google demanded the phone number be shut down
    and documented the scam.

    Jeff

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From nwe@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 01, 2026 09:40:01
    On 3/31/26 8:30 PM, Charles Curley wrote:
    On Tue, 31 Mar 2026 13:27:03 -0500
    John Hasler<john@sugarbit.com> wrote:

    nwe writes:
    After hours of frustration I finally made contact with a real person
    at google who bluntly told me there is just nothing they can do
    until the account lockout period expires.
    An actual person at Google? Amazing.
    Indeed. How?
    It was close to a year ago, unfortunately I don't remember all the
    details what all I tried. I distinctly remember I was a bit frustrated.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Charles Curley@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, April 01, 2026 15:40:01
    On Tue, 31 Mar 2026 23:38:01 -0400
    Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> wrote:

    Off-topic, but we had to send a letter to Google's Legal to get
    something done.

    Thank you. Sorry for you mother.

    In future, they're going to have to be a bit more responsive in at
    least some circumstances, i.e. where intimate pictures are published
    without consent of the subject.
    https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB11314

    --
    Does anybody read signatures any more?

    https://charlescurley.com
    https://charlescurley.com/blog/

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Byunghee HWANG (???)@3:633/10 to All on Thursday, April 02, 2026 11:10:02
    Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> writes:
    Hi,

    On Tue, Mar 31, 2026 at 04:53:27PM +0900, Byunghee HWANG (???) wrote:
    Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> writes:
    On Sun, Mar 29, 2026 at 09:42:13PM +0900, Byunghee HWANG (???) wrote:
    All roads lead to Rome(Gmail).

    This kind of thing is why no matter how bad gmail is, or how
    self-centred their decisions are, we all have to go along with it.
    Because if one of my users can't email someone at gmail it must be my
    fault, right? It's the best free email service in the world and all
    roads lead to gmail, after all.

    Andy, i deeply empathize with your story. Even so, i am also in a
    situation where i cannot escape Gmail in real life.

    I don't want to harp on this but the sort of thing I'm trying to point
    out is that for example over on the mailop mailing list you are
    participating in this thread even today:

    https://www.mail-archive.com/mailop@mailop.org/msg26412.html

    (I'm not stalking you; we're both subscribers! ?)

    where an admin with a 1,400 subscriber Mailman mailing list that they
    have been operating for years is at their wits' end trying to get mail
    to their gmail.com subscribers.

    Meanwhile you are also on *this* mailing list telling everyone that
    gmail is the best email service provider.

    All participants in mailop should be aware by now that gmail
    consistently provides the most difficulty, the most aggravation, and the least assistance to small senders, where "small" is something like "less
    than 5k emails per day". It is a black box for them/us. If we've
    followed all their (arbitrary) rules and still our users lose mails,
    there is no way forward for us.

    I know it's not the best because other ESPs do not give me and others anywhere near as much of a problem, and I am surprised to see anyone
    with actual knowledge of the sender side claim otherwise.

    Hellow Andy! I read all of your email. That is all true. You are
    right. Thanks for comments. You are nice guy. So i would like to
    re-write my thoughts as below:
    s/gmail is best free email service/i like gmail for free service/g
    PS. Fastmail is good for paid service, still i think.

    Sincerley, Byunghee
    --
    ^????? _????_ ?????_^))//


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