• Secure boot

    From Axel@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 22, 2026 06:02:52

    Should I have it on or off? at present I have it off.

    --
    Linux Mint 22.3


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan K.@3:633/10 to All on Saturday, March 21, 2026 15:35:46
    On 3/21/26 3:02 PM, Axel wrote:

    Should I have it on or off? at present I have it off.

    I have found it's less problematic with it off.

    This (not being the defacto answer) gives you a bit of background if you're interested in
    reading. https://www.siberoloji.com/managing-secure-boot-with-cinnamon-desktop-on-linux-mint/

    Short answer is: Turn it off. The article explains it can be done but I have 4 systems
    booting and I sometimes replace one with a new one and I just don't want to fight who
    signs and who doesn't.

    --
    Linux Mint 22.3, Mozilla Thunderbird 140.8.1esr, Mozilla Firefox 148.0.2
    Alan K.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 22, 2026 05:18:29
    On Sun, 22 Mar 2026 06:02:52 +1100, Axel wrote:

    Should I have it on or off? at present I have it off.

    Depends on whom you?re having it off with. ;)

    Seriously, the official recommendation from the likes of Microsoft,
    and even some Linux folks, is to have it enabled. But I like to apply
    the princple that weak security is worse than no security at all,
    because it lulls you into believing you?re secure when you?re not. And
    ?secure boot? most certainly falls into the category of ?weak
    security?.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 22, 2026 02:03:58
    On Sat, 3/21/2026 3:02 PM, Axel wrote:

    Should I have it on or off? at present I have it off.


    See "Secure Boot", about 30% down the page.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI

    Examples of security features.

    Secure Boot A secure enclave CPU, "measures" the boot process and checks
    the signing of the UEFI Boot Files. It "attests" that the
    boot files have not been modified. The BIOS has a certificate
    chain, and items can be "revoked" when stored in there so they
    are no longer trusted as certificates.

    Not Secure Boot Whatever you boot with, is implicitly trusted and is not measured.
    A Boot Kit which has taken over the boot materials, can then be
    a persistent threat, living on the machine.

    Automatic When you don't have to enter your password at Linux startup, authentication this gives the visitor to your household, access to your home
    directory and your email Inbox. It does not give elevation
    as a "sudo" command still requires typing in a password.

    Entry Having to enter a password right after the OS boots, ensures Authentication that getting access to your home directory, requires knowing a secret.
    Using "sudo" still requires typing the password too.

    *******

    As for device implementations, there can be a 14 pin or a 20 pin header
    for manual insertion of a device. The device can sit on SPI or LPC
    (in other words, more than one bus type is supported).

    The BIOS also can have a firmware implementation of TPM. The processor
    must have a secure enclave, as part of that firmware. A TPM physical chip has
    a secure enclave, which is how older processors could have a root of trust. Newer processors have a core which does nothing but function as a secure enclave. On Intel this might be "TXT". On AMD, there are the regular x86
    cores, but there is one ARM core inside the AMD processor, which is not intended for, say, running a smartphone in there, that core is used
    to make a TPM via BIOS firmware. One laptop with a particular AMD
    processor, has a Pluton prototype inside it, which sank like a rock
    from a public relations point of view. The processor likely has at
    least one ARM core plus the Pluton (in case the Pluton sank like a rock).

    In Windows, it's easy to check your TPM status. There are two lines in
    the interface.

    Status

    Attestation Ready <=== both some sort of TPM is present, plus code that
    interfaces with the results

    Storage Ready <=== presumably, holds a BitLocker key or similar

    My Dell Optiplex 780 claims to have a TPM, but Attestation is not ready
    and the machine does not Secure Boot. It might be a TPM 1.4 module, soldered
    to the motherboard. The storage is likely Ready (as storing a key is pretty easy).

    A motherboard that supported TPM 1.4, is unlikely to receive a BIOS update
    to make it TPM 2.0 ready, nor is it likely the manufacturer will make
    a TPM 2.0 module for it. If they do make a TPM module, they would then
    be on the hook for issuing a new motherboard BIOS file (which is not
    going to happen). This is how perfectly good motherboards get frozen out
    of this nonsense.

    The topic is migraine-inducing, just like the maintenance web page
    for Intel Management Engine and all its versions. You really as a human,
    could not read to the end of that filth. I had to stop. The TPM topic
    is just as bad, as virtually every discussion thread is incomplete,
    the people who know what they're doing, are not writing 100 page
    missives to help anyone. If you knew everything about it, you
    could likely exploit it and beat the crap out of it. That's why we
    have Boot Kits out there. Some keys, via db/dbx may already
    have been revoked. And Microsoft is in the process of installing
    PCA 2023 and eventually, revoking PCA 2011 (which means some older
    Linux DVDs, if started in Secure Boot mode on a 2026 laptop,
    will not boot -- DVDs which depend on PCA 2011 will eventually
    expire for 2026 laptops). Since PCA 2011 is expiring in July,
    officially its days are numbered anyway, but there is a claim
    that some boot processes do not trust nor check the time clock
    (as a user could just dial the clock back to "make" PCA 2011 work).

    I informed people a couple of years ago, that they should
    enjoy the opportunity to buy UEFI/CSM motherboards and
    computers, as 2026 was coming, and the plan was to have
    only UEFI and no CSM any more. A machine with both, can boot
    Knoppix 5.3, if you use "noacpi" on the boot line. A 2026 laptop
    is unlikely to boot Knoppix 5.3 (as a test of the flexibility
    of boot). I don't know if a 2026 laptop has a Secure Boot ON/OFF
    or not. It might be Secure Boot only, raising the possibility
    of bricking it.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Axel@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 22, 2026 17:23:40
    Alan K. wrote:
    On 3/21/26 3:02 PM, Axel wrote:

    Should I have it on or off? at present I have it off.

    I have found it's less problematic with it off.

    This (not being the defacto answer) gives you a bit of background if
    you're interested in reading. https://www.siberoloji.com/managing-secure-boot-with-cinnamon-desktop-on-linux-mint/


    Short answer is:ÿ Turn it off.ÿÿ The article explains it can be done
    but I have 4 systems booting and I sometimes replace one with a new
    one and I just don't want to fight who signs and who doesn't.


    thanks for that

    --
    Linux Mint 22.3


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Axel@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 22, 2026 17:23:57
    rbowman wrote:
    On Sun, 22 Mar 2026 06:02:52 +1100, Axel wrote:

    Should I have it on or off? at present I have it off.
    Leave it off. It doesn't do anything for Linux and if you need to
    reinstall or want to try another distro you'll probably need to turn it
    off again.

    thanks

    --
    Linux Mint 22.3


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Axel@3:633/10 to All on Sunday, March 22, 2026 17:25:14
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 22 Mar 2026 06:02:52 +1100, Axel wrote:

    Should I have it on or off? at present I have it off.
    Depends on whom you?re having it off with. ;)

    LOL


    Seriously, the official recommendation from the likes of Microsoft,
    and even some Linux folks, is to have it enabled. But I like to apply
    the princple that weak security is worse than no security at all,
    because it lulls you into believing you?re secure when you?re not. And ?secure boot? most certainly falls into the category of ?weak
    security?.


    --
    Linux Mint 22.3


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Axel@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 24, 2026 06:10:14
    Paul wrote:
    On Sat, 3/21/2026 3:02 PM, Axel wrote:
    Should I have it on or off? at present I have it off.

    See "Secure Boot", about 30% down the page.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI

    Examples of security features.

    Secure Boot A secure enclave CPU, "measures" the boot process and checks
    the signing of the UEFI Boot Files. It "attests" that the
    boot files have not been modified. The BIOS has a certificate
    chain, and items can be "revoked" when stored in there so they
    are no longer trusted as certificates.

    Not Secure Boot Whatever you boot with, is implicitly trusted and is not measured.
    A Boot Kit which has taken over the boot materials, can then be
    a persistent threat, living on the machine.

    Automatic When you don't have to enter your password at Linux startup,
    authentication this gives the visitor to your household, access to your home
    directory and your email Inbox. It does not give elevation
    as a "sudo" command still requires typing in a password.

    Entry Having to enter a password right after the OS boots, ensures
    Authentication that getting access to your home directory, requires knowing a secret.
    Using "sudo" still requires typing the password too.

    *******

    As for device implementations, there can be a 14 pin or a 20 pin header
    for manual insertion of a device. The device can sit on SPI or LPC
    (in other words, more than one bus type is supported).

    The BIOS also can have a firmware implementation of TPM. The processor
    must have a secure enclave, as part of that firmware. A TPM physical chip has a secure enclave, which is how older processors could have a root of trust. Newer processors have a core which does nothing but function as a secure enclave. On Intel this might be "TXT". On AMD, there are the regular x86 cores, but there is one ARM core inside the AMD processor, which is not intended for, say, running a smartphone in there, that core is used
    to make a TPM via BIOS firmware. One laptop with a particular AMD
    processor, has a Pluton prototype inside it, which sank like a rock
    from a public relations point of view. The processor likely has at
    least one ARM core plus the Pluton (in case the Pluton sank like a rock).

    In Windows, it's easy to check your TPM status. There are two lines in
    the interface.

    Status

    Attestation Ready <=== both some sort of TPM is present, plus code that
    interfaces with the results

    Storage Ready <=== presumably, holds a BitLocker key or similar

    My Dell Optiplex 780 claims to have a TPM, but Attestation is not ready
    and the machine does not Secure Boot. It might be a TPM 1.4 module, soldered to the motherboard. The storage is likely Ready (as storing a key is pretty easy).

    A motherboard that supported TPM 1.4, is unlikely to receive a BIOS update
    to make it TPM 2.0 ready, nor is it likely the manufacturer will make
    a TPM 2.0 module for it. If they do make a TPM module, they would then
    be on the hook for issuing a new motherboard BIOS file (which is not
    going to happen). This is how perfectly good motherboards get frozen out
    of this nonsense.

    The topic is migraine-inducing, just like the maintenance web page
    for Intel Management Engine and all its versions. You really as a human, could not read to the end of that filth. I had to stop. The TPM topic
    is just as bad, as virtually every discussion thread is incomplete,
    the people who know what they're doing, are not writing 100 page
    missives to help anyone. If you knew everything about it, you
    could likely exploit it and beat the crap out of it. That's why we
    have Boot Kits out there. Some keys, via db/dbx may already
    have been revoked. And Microsoft is in the process of installing
    PCA 2023 and eventually, revoking PCA 2011 (which means some older
    Linux DVDs, if started in Secure Boot mode on a 2026 laptop,
    will not boot -- DVDs which depend on PCA 2011 will eventually
    expire for 2026 laptops). Since PCA 2011 is expiring in July,
    officially its days are numbered anyway, but there is a claim
    that some boot processes do not trust nor check the time clock
    (as a user could just dial the clock back to "make" PCA 2011 work).

    I informed people a couple of years ago, that they should
    enjoy the opportunity to buy UEFI/CSM motherboards and
    computers, as 2026 was coming, and the plan was to have
    only UEFI and no CSM any more. A machine with both, can boot
    Knoppix 5.3, if you use "noacpi" on the boot line. A 2026 laptop
    is unlikely to boot Knoppix 5.3 (as a test of the flexibility
    of boot). I don't know if a 2026 laptop has a Secure Boot ON/OFF
    or not. It might be Secure Boot only, raising the possibility
    of bricking it.

    thanks for that. I'll just leave it off. computing was much simpler
    before all this crap.


    Paul


    --
    Linux Mint 22.3


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Axel@3:633/10 to All on Tuesday, March 24, 2026 06:48:47
    Alan K. wrote:
    On 3/21/26 3:02 PM, Axel wrote:

    Should I have it on or off? at present I have it off.

    I have found it's less problematic with it off.

    This (not being the defacto answer) gives you a bit of background if
    you're interested in reading. https://www.siberoloji.com/managing-secure-boot-with-cinnamon-desktop-on-linux-mint/


    would it be different with other distros?


    Short answer is:ÿ Turn it off.ÿÿ The article explains it can be done
    but I have 4 systems booting and I sometimes replace one with a new
    one and I just don't want to fight who signs and who doesn't.



    --
    Linux Mint 22.3


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Monday, March 23, 2026 17:02:07
    On Mon, 3/23/2026 3:10 PM, Axel wrote:


    thanks for that. I'll just leave it off. computing was much simpler before all this crap.

    You never know what the future holds.

    1) A person standing in your room, can bypass lots of the "trivial security". 2) Having a BIOS level password, will slow them down. Consumer machines, 20 seconds to bypass.
    Business machines, maybe 5-10 minutes to fit a programming clip to the 2KB password chip
    and flash the null image into it. For the "merely curious", a BIOS password will keep
    them out for a good while, before they get to boot their LiveDVD with sudo.

    3) Given your security posture in the room is typically poor (I know mine is),
    you want a disaster recovery plan. That's what backups are for. The disk
    storing the backups, should be offline when the machine is being operated
    normally. It is up to you to decide how quickly you need to tip the machine
    upright again (assuming there isn't a persistent pest onboard). It can be
    almost impossible to tip a room upright, with the right pest onboard.
    That's why, in an "emergency situation", don't be surprised that
    the modern machines aren't coming back up.

    I've probably told the story about the guy who got wiped out by ransomware.
    He posted a question "my Excel files have .osirus extensions added to them". That was Osirus Ransomware, which encrypted data files such as .xlsx and .docx and so on. It goes for the high value files, first.

    The OP in that case, didn't have backups. He had OS CD/DVD install media in the room, but
    he didn't know which license key went with which machine.

    It took around three months, before he dropped in one day, and said the room was more or less upright again. Sans whatever data loss from the lost files.
    He had a small business, and I think he closed up shop. He no longer
    drops into USENET, as he is "functionally retired".

    Even your backups can be ruined. Some ransomware hides for a month, to give time to discover and monitor your backup pattern. Maybe it takes a chance
    and ruins every backup image you made. Then when the "red dialog" appears
    on your screen, your Disaster Recovery Plan is already ruined.

    For people without a profile, they have little to worry about in terms
    of "focused campaigns". But if someone "wants to drop the big one",
    that will be a test of everyones Disaster Recovery Plan.

    Remember, that most malwares today, are reversible or "clean-able".
    They don't have to be. Wipers like Sality still exist, and BleepingComputer would "tell you to reinstall" if such is detected. It seems a lot of
    these pests have worm capability, or at least, they are armed with
    exploits which a lot of people have not patched up for. Like, say you
    had SMB1 enabled on a machine, how "worm-able" are you ? I don't know.
    Couldn't give an estimate.

    Rather than being worried about your Secure Boot setting, I would
    advise some more general principles about running a computer room.
    "Bring your umbrella, because it looks like rain." Consider what
    you'd do in an emergency.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Axel@3:633/10 to All on Wednesday, March 25, 2026 10:37:18
    Paul wrote:
    On Mon, 3/23/2026 3:10 PM, Axel wrote:

    thanks for that. I'll just leave it off. computing was much simpler before all this crap.
    You never know what the future holds.

    1) A person standing in your room, can bypass lots of the "trivial security". 2) Having a BIOS level password, will slow them down. Consumer machines, 20 seconds to bypass.
    Business machines, maybe 5-10 minutes to fit a programming clip to the 2KB password chip
    and flash the null image into it. For the "merely curious", a BIOS password will keep
    them out for a good while, before they get to boot their LiveDVD with sudo.

    3) Given your security posture in the room is typically poor (I know mine is),
    you want a disaster recovery plan. That's what backups are for. The disk
    storing the backups, should be offline when the machine is being operated
    normally.

    i have the timeshift disk and the files disk permanently in the machine
    for convenience. guess I should remove them and connect them only via
    usb as necessary

    It is up to you to decide how quickly you need to tip the machine
    upright again (assuming there isn't a persistent pest onboard). It can be
    almost impossible to tip a room upright, with the right pest onboard.
    That's why, in an "emergency situation", don't be surprised that
    the modern machines aren't coming back up.

    I've probably told the story about the guy who got wiped out by ransomware. He posted a question "my Excel files have .osirus extensions added to them". That was Osirus Ransomware, which encrypted data files such as .xlsx and .docx
    and so on. It goes for the high value files, first.

    was he using Linux? and he wouldn't he have had to click on some file he shouldn't have to install the ransomware?


    The OP in that case, didn't have backups. He had OS CD/DVD install media in the room, but
    he didn't know which license key went with which machine.

    It took around three months, before he dropped in one day, and said the room was more or less upright again. Sans whatever data loss from the lost files. He had a small business, and I think he closed up shop. He no longer
    drops into USENET, as he is "functionally retired".

    Even your backups can be ruined. Some ransomware hides for a month, to give time to discover and monitor your backup pattern. Maybe it takes a chance
    and ruins every backup image you made. Then when the "red dialog" appears
    on your screen, your Disaster Recovery Plan is already ruined.

    in that case wouldn't even backups to a USB hard drive be corrupted?


    For people without a profile, they have little to worry about in terms
    of "focused campaigns". But if someone "wants to drop the big one",
    that will be a test of everyones Disaster Recovery Plan.

    Remember, that most malwares today, are reversible or "clean-able".
    They don't have to be. Wipers like Sality still exist, and BleepingComputer would "tell you to reinstall" if such is detected. It seems a lot of
    these pests have worm capability, or at least, they are armed with
    exploits which a lot of people have not patched up for. Like, say you
    had SMB1 enabled on a machine, how "worm-able" are you ? I don't know. Couldn't give an estimate.

    Rather than being worried about your Secure Boot setting, I would
    advise some more general principles about running a computer room.
    "Bring your umbrella, because it looks like rain." Consider what
    you'd do in an emergency.

    I have Timeshift, Backup Tool saves, and regular Foxclone image and the
    files disk copies


    Paul


    --
    Linux Mint 22.3


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.13
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)