Subject: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:

1974, CERN presented comparison of VM370/CMS and MVS/TSO at SHARE ...
inside IBM the report was classified "IBM Confidential - Restricted" "on
need to know" only (not wanting internal employees see the
comparison). How much better VM370/CMS looked likely was major factor in
the head of POK (high-end 370s) convincing corporate to kill the
VM370/CMS product, shutdown the development group and transfer all the
people to POK for MVS/XA (Endicott lab eventually manages to acquire the VM370/CMS product mission, but had to recreate a development group from scratch).

part of reason that other RDBMS shipping before System/R was opposition
from "IMS" (& then EAGLE)

Right, Ted Codd had a lot of stories about people inside IBM trying to
convince him to stop talking about relational databases because he was
making IMS look bad.

The dirtiest story of this kind of IBM ratfucking is ASCII, which Bob
Bemer (mostly) developed at IBM???for which IBM exiled him to a position
with no authority, from which he resigned and then had to spend a
quarter century fighting against IBM?s persistent marketing of their technically inferior EBCDIC. That?s the way he tells the story, anyway: <https://web.archive.org/web/20180513204153/http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM>

Looking at the last half century of the US failing at nuclear power and high-speed rail and losing key technologies like injection-molding die production, it?s hard to avoid the conclusion that such political
infighting writ large is the culprit.

trivia: old archived post with decade of VAX/VMS numbers ... VM/4341s
sold in approx. same numbers in single or small unit numbers ... big difference were the large orders for hundreds of VM/4341 at a time. https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

Sad to say, garlic.com seems to have broken your link here. <https://web.archive.org/web/20260310072508/https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0>
works for now. Your post archive links are extremely valuable, and I
hope you can get your archive back on the live web???and maybe license
it under a Creative Commons license so that it?s clearly legal for
people to archive.

I had no idea the MicroVAX-II was so amazingly popular. 102,165 VAXen
shipped by 01986 and 139,000 VAXen shipped by 01987, of which almost
half were the MicroVAX-II according to your IDC figures.

But the writing was kind of on the wall???the Commodore 64 sold over 2
million units in 01986 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64>, 20
times as many units as all the VAX models, and 20 Commodore 64s could
serve 20 users, about like a VAX, but with graphics and consistent low
latency. What the VAX had on them was a nicer OS, networking, and
higher peak throughput.

And faster commodity-hardware computers were on the way. According to <https://netlib.org/performance/html/dhrystone.data.col0.html> and the
release years I dug up from Wikipedia:

| machine | year | Dhrystone MIPS |
|------------------------+-------+----------------|
| VAX 11/780 | 01977 | 1.03?1.3 |
| VAX 11/750 | 01980 | 0.62 |
| Commodore 64 | 01982 | 0.0205 |
| 7.8MHz 68000 Macintosh | 01984 | 0.52 |
| MicroVAX-II | 01985 | 0.92 |
| Amiga 2000/CSA-MMR | 01987 | 3.0 |

The disruptive-innovation dynamic was in full swing: the Amiga wasn?t as
good as a ten-year-earlier VAX 11/780 in some ways, like memory
protection and the number of serial ports you could put in it, but it
could do things the VAX couldn?t, like video games, and it *was* three
times as fast. 3« times as fast as the MVII.

DEC?s efforts to enter the personal computer market like the Rainbow
were not very successful, and they were gradually chased upmarket to
things like the VAX 8000, which we can see never sold in the numbers the
11/780 and MVII did, and DECStations. Until the Intel patent lawsuit
finally destroyed them.

Kragen

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/11/26 14:05, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:

[Deleted]

Kragen

You have a habit of moving discussions from one newsgroup
to another, That kills the conversation.

Where did Lynn's article come from?

Jeroen Belleman

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:

Where did Lynn's article come from?

It came from alt.folklore.computers.

Kragen

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/11/26 18:38, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:

Where did Lynn's article come from?

It came from alt.folklore.computers.

Kragen

Thanks, found it.

I was interested because she mentioned CERN, where IBM
systems were very much in vogue at the time. Those days
are far behind us now.

Jeroen Belleman

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/11/26 20:18, Andy Burns wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 9/11/26 18:38, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:

Where did Lynn's article come from?

It came from alt.folklore.computers.

Kragen

Thanks, found it.

I was interested because she mentioned CERN

That'll be "he" ...

Ah, OK.

When I started at CERN in 1981, the principal computer
system was an IBM 360. We used WYLBUR for the editing
environment, with exec files for simple things and batch
processing with JCL for the more serious work.
It was clumsy, but I didn't know any better at the time.

Jeroen Belleman

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:

On 9/11/26 20:18, Andy Burns wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 9/11/26 18:38, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:

Where did Lynn's article come from?

It came from alt.folklore.computers.

Kragen

Thanks, found it.

I was interested because she mentioned CERN

That'll be "he" ...

Ah, OK.

When I started at CERN in 1981, the principal computer
system was an IBM 360. We used WYLBUR for the editing
environment, with exec files for simple things and batch
processing with JCL for the more serious work.

By 1981, most of us had dumped WYLBUR for VMS edt100.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> writes:

trivia: old archived post with decade of VAX/VMS numbers ... VM/4341s
sold in approx. same numbers in single or small unit numbers ... big
difference were the large orders for hundreds of VM/4341 at a time.
https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

Sad to say, garlic.com seems to have broken your link here. <https://web.archive.org/web/20260310072508/https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0>
works for now. Your post archive links are extremely valuable, and I
hope you can get your archive back on the live web???and maybe license
it under a Creative Commons license so that it?s clearly legal for
people to archive.

... PCs & PC browser seem to work ... it seems to be mostly cellphone
and tablet for which it has disappeared.

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:

Where did Lynn's article come from?

the CERN/MVS/VM370 comparison reference came from being their

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:

When I started at CERN in 1981, the principal computer
system was an IBM 360. We used WYLBUR for the editing
environment, with exec files for simple things and batch
processing with JCL for the more serious work.
It was clumsy, but I didn't know any better at the time.

trivia: WYLBUR original came from stanford's virtual memory
system done for 360/67 ... Univ of Michigan had done MTS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Terminal_System
and Stanford had done ORVYL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORVYL_and_WYLBUR
... later WYLBUR was ported to MVS

Some of the MIT CTSS/7094 people had gone to 5th flr to do
multics. Others went to the IBM Scientific Center on the 4th flr and did virtual machines (CP40/CMS morphs into CP67/CMS before morphing
into VM370/CMS). CMS SCRIPT (redone CTSS RUNOFF) was done for CP67/CMS in
1968. Then some CSC co-workers invented GML in 1969 and GML tag
processing was added to SCRIPT. After a decade, GML morphs into ISO
standard SGML and after another decade morphs into HTML at CERN.

Also account by one of the GML inventors ... original hired to promote CP67-based scientific center wide-area network https://web.archive.org/web/20230402212558/http://www.sgmlsource.com/history/jasis.htm
Actually, the law office application was the original motivation for the project, something I was allowed to do part-time because of my knowledge
of the user requirements. My real job was to encourage the staffs of the various scientific centers to make use of the CP-67-based Wide Area
Network that was centered in Cambridge.

... snip ...

CSC wide-area network morphs into the internal corporate network (larger
than arpanet/internet from the beginning until sometime mid/late 80s
... about the time it was forced to convert to SNA/VTAM). Technology was
also used for the corporate sponsored univ BITNET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BITNET

Edson (responsible for science center wide area entwork) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Hendricks
In June 1975, MIT Professor Jerry Saltzer accompanied Hendricks to
DARPA, where Hendricks described his innovations to the principal
scientist, Dr. Vinton Cerf. Later that year in September 15-19 of 75,
Cerf and Hendricks were the only two delegates from the United States,
to attend a workshop on Data Communications at the International
Institute for Applied Systems Analysis, 2361 Laxenburg Austria where
again, Hendricks spoke publicly about his innovative design which paved
the way to the Internet as we know it today.

...

SJMerc article about Edson (he passed aug2020) and "IBM'S MISSED
OPPORTUNITY WITH THE INTERNET" (gone behind paywall but lives free at
wayback machine) https://web.archive.org/web/20000124004147/http://www1.sjmercury.com/svtech/columns/gillmor/docs/dg092499.htm
Also from wayback machine, some additional (IBM missed internet)
references from Ed's website https://web.archive.org/web/20000115185349/http://www.edh.net/bungle.htm

Ed and I transfer out to SJR on the west coast in 1977 ... and I work
with Jim Gray and Vera Watson on original SQL/relational, System/R. Was
able to do technology transfer ("under the radar while company was
pre-occupied with next great new DBMS "EAGLE") to Endicott for SQL/DS.
Then when "EAGLE" implodes, there was request for how fast could
System/R be ported to MVS, eventually released as DB2 (originally for
decision support *ONLY*).

Also TYMSHARE provides the IBM Mainframe user group, "SHARE" with its VM370/CMS-based online computer conferencing system for free in AUG1976.
I cut a deal with TYMSHARE to get a monthly tape dump of all VMSHARE
files for putting up on internal network and systems (biggest problem
were the lawyers over exposing internal employees to unfiltered customer information). archives here:
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:

Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> writes:

[Lynn Wheeler wrote:]

https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

Sad to say, garlic.com seems to have broken your link here.

... PCs & PC browser seem to work ... it seems to be mostly cellphone
and tablet for which it has disappeared.

If you send an HTTPS request for "/~lynn/2002f.html" to www.garlic.com (77.37.114.68), it responds, saying, ?South Valley Internet.
Garlic.com. [Check Availability]. The page can?t be found. It looks
like nothing was found at this location,? and giving the addresses and
phone numbers of a company in Morgan Hill, California, rather than your archived posts.

This unlikely to be related to which browser you?re using, but in case
it is, I'm using Firefox 128.3.1esr for Linux.

Kragen

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/12/2026 17:47, Lynn Wheeler wrote:

[...]
trivia: WYLBUR original came from stanford's virtual memory
system done for 360/67 ... Univ of Michigan had done MTS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Terminal_System
and Stanford had done ORVYL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORVYL_and_WYLBUR
... later WYLBUR was ported to MVS

I wonder why there were so many CRJE systems with almost identical features:
* WYLBUR (from Stanford)
* WITS (from Waterloo)
* CRJE (IBM's official option for MVT and MVS)
... any that I have forgotten?

Of course, there was also TSO, but it was a dog, performance wise, so
none of the education places I knew would use it. I expect that the IBM develoment sites used it to develop MVS code?
--
Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/13/26 10:02, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:

Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> writes:

[Lynn Wheeler wrote:]

https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

Sad to say, garlic.com seems to have broken your link here.

... PCs & PC browser seem to work ... it seems to be mostly cellphone
and tablet for which it has disappeared.

If you send an HTTPS request for "/~lynn/2002f.html" to www.garlic.com (77.37.114.68), it responds, saying, ?South Valley Internet.
Garlic.com. [Check Availability]. The page can?t be found. It looks
like nothing was found at this location,? and giving the addresses and
phone numbers of a company in Morgan Hill, California, rather than your archived posts.

This unlikely to be related to which browser you?re using, but in case
it is, I'm using Firefox 128.3.1esr for Linux.

It works for me. FF155.0.1, Ubuntu 24.04.4 64-bit

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/13/26 15:02, Lars Poulsen wrote:

On 9/12/2026 17:47, Lynn Wheeler wrote:

[...]
trivia: WYLBUR original came from stanford's virtual memory
system done for 360/67 ... Univ of Michigan had done MTS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Terminal_System
and Stanford had done ORVYL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORVYL_and_WYLBUR
... later WYLBUR was ported to MVS

I wonder why there were so many CRJE systems with almost identical
features:
* WYLBUR (from Stanford)
* WITS (from Waterloo)
* CRJE (IBM's official option for MVT and MVS)
... any that I have forgotten?

Of course, there was also TSO, but it was a dog, performance wise, so
none of the education places I knew would use it. I expect that the IBM develoment sites used it to develop MVS code?

Every place I worked used TSO until we got VM.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 2026-09-14, Peter Flass wrote:

On 9/13/26 10:02, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:

Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> writes:

[Lynn Wheeler wrote:]

https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

Sad to say, garlic.com seems to have broken your link here.

... PCs & PC browser seem to work ... it seems to be mostly cellphone
and tablet for which it has disappeared.

If you send an HTTPS request for "/~lynn/2002f.html" to www.garlic.com
(77.37.114.68), it responds, saying, ?South Valley Internet.
Garlic.com. [Check Availability]. The page can?t be found. It looks
like nothing was found at this location,? and giving the addresses and
phone numbers of a company in Morgan Hill, California, rather than your
archived posts.

This unlikely to be related to which browser you?re using, but in case
it is, I'm using Firefox 128.3.1esr for Linux.

It works for me. FF155.0.1, Ubuntu 24.04.4 64-bit

You mean you don't get a "The page can't be found" message and you see
Lynn's website?

--
Nuno Silva

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/13/26 16:37, Nuno Silva wrote:

On 2026-09-14, Peter Flass wrote:

On 9/13/26 10:02, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:

Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> writes:

[Lynn Wheeler wrote:]

https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

Sad to say, garlic.com seems to have broken your link here.

... PCs & PC browser seem to work ... it seems to be mostly cellphone
and tablet for which it has disappeared.

If you send an HTTPS request for "/~lynn/2002f.html" to www.garlic.com
(77.37.114.68), it responds, saying, ?South Valley Internet.
Garlic.com. [Check Availability]. The page can?t be found. It looks
like nothing was found at this location,? and giving the addresses and
phone numbers of a company in Morgan Hill, California, rather than your
archived posts.

This unlikely to be related to which browser you?re using, but in case
it is, I'm using Firefox 128.3.1esr for Linux.

It works for me. FF155.0.1, Ubuntu 24.04.4 64-bit

You mean you don't get a "The page can't be found" message and you see
Lynn's website?

Well, NOW I'm getting a 404.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 2026-09-13, Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> wrote:

On 9/13/26 10:02, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:

Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> writes:

[Lynn Wheeler wrote:]

https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

Sad to say, garlic.com seems to have broken your link here.

... PCs & PC browser seem to work ... it seems to be mostly cellphone
and tablet for which it has disappeared.

If you send an HTTPS request for "/~lynn/2002f.html" to www.garlic.com
(77.37.114.68), it responds, saying, ?South Valley Internet.
Garlic.com. [Check Availability]. The page can?t be found. It looks
like nothing was found at this location,? and giving the addresses and
phone numbers of a company in Morgan Hill, California, rather than your
archived posts.

This unlikely to be related to which browser you?re using, but in case
it is, I'm using Firefox 128.3.1esr for Linux.

It works for me. FF155.0.1, Ubuntu 24.04.4 64-bit

It fails for me, both on Seamonkey 2.53.23 and Firefox 153.0
under Debian Bookworm.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people:
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> writes:

This unlikely to be related to which browser you?re using, but in case
it is, I'm using Firefox 128.3.1esr for Linux.

firefox/nightly158 w/fedora44 ... it gives me
https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ and https://mycloud.garlic.com/~lynn
... but neither worked with tablet or cellphone.

just retried with cellphone firefox and mycloud.garlic.com worked but
not www.garlic.com. I've had discussions with garlic tech guy and he
says he had been working on getting something fixed (after recent site
revamp).

just double checked wayback machine (archive.org) which had www.garlic.com/~lynn up until about may2026 but nothing since ... and
nothing at all for mycloud.garlic.com.

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> writes:

I wonder why there were so many CRJE systems with almost identical features: * WYLBUR (from Stanford)
* WITS (from Waterloo)
* CRJE (IBM's official option for MVT and MVS)
... any that I have forgotten?

Of course, there was also TSO, but it was a dog, performance wise, so
none of the education places I knew would use it. I expect that the
IBM develoment sites used it to develop MVS code?

CP/67 had arrived with 1052&2741 terminal support and auto-terminal
ident, capable switching terminal type scanner type for each
port. Univ. also had TTY33&35 and I add ASCII support integrated with auto-terminal type. I then want to have single dial-in number (hunt
group) for all terminals. Didn't quite work, IBM had hard-wired line
speed ... so we start a clone terminal controller. Build a IBM channel interface board for Interdata/3 programmed to emulate IBM controller
with the addition for auto-baud. Then upgraded with Interdata/4 for
channel interface and cluster of Interdata/3s for port
interfaces. Interdata (and later Perkin-Elmer) sell them as clone
controllers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkin-Elmer#Computer_Systems_Division
... and four of us are written up responsible for (some part of) IBM
clone controller business. Other trivia, when tty/ascii port scanner for 360/67, it came in "Heathkit" box.

Before leaving for Boeing. I modified HASP for MVT18, with CRJE
implementation, including editor that implemented CMS edit syntax
(environments were so different that couldn't reuse any code).

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On Mon, 14 Sep 2026 15:11:58 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:

Before leaving for Boeing. I modified HASP for MVT18 ...

Fun fact (for those who didn?t know): ?HASP? stood for ?Houston
Automatic Spooling Priority?. The ?Houston? in question was NASA?s
Mission Control.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)