You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
On 08/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
Yes, its all FUD without proof of source.
It's unlikely organizations sell unused or no longer in service os to
third party markets. Organizations contract for a preset number of licenses. Unused licenses are a wasted asset. Perpetual licenses stay
vaild forever, subscription licenses are valid for the duration of the subscription, unused subscriptions(also a wasted expense) until the next renewal where the quantity(# subscriptions) can be reduced.
Unused are not resold. They are retained to meet current or future
software audits(internal and external for compliance).
Volume license resellers do have options for unused licenses and market
for resale at discount pricing...but only after approval from MSFT.
- which is why certain editions of Windows and Office periodically
appear for consumer purchase. These are direct to consumer, not to OEM retailers of hardware for sale to consumers.
In summary, the concept of organizations selling to Mini-pc
manufacturers is as you've stated...FUD.
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to
what you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)?
I owned a MacBook with Snow Leopard, at one time. I ended up buying
CrossOver to use mIRC.
<https://computercity.com/software/macos/irc-client-for-mac>
Show how mIRC is better than all of those.
I wasn't comparing it to them at that time. I use IRCCloud, mostly,
now, but have mIRC available for specific functions. In that time
when I had macOS, the several OS X apps I tried for IRC were all lame.
Really? What are these "specific functions"...
...and what apps did yo try?
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in LSD >>>>>> Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome (that
costs $2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
It isn't specific. It's most of the crap apps that exist for your
lame OS. Microsoft Office and presumably Adobe's stuff
notwithstanding, and video editing.
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
I could try to research the names, of specific apps, to give you an
answer, but I'd rather just not care about Apple and let them be lame
away from me.
Objectively, you'd rather make vague claims you never support with any specificity.
On 8/18/2026 8:42 PM, Alan wrote:
Give an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to >>>>>>>> what you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)?
I owned a MacBook with Snow Leopard, at one time. I ended up
buying CrossOver to use mIRC.
<https://computercity.com/software/macos/irc-client-for-mac>
Show how mIRC is better than all of those.
I wasn't comparing it to them at that time. I use IRCCloud, mostly,
now, but have mIRC available for specific functions. In that time
when I had macOS, the several OS X apps I tried for IRC were all lame.
Really? What are these "specific functions"...
IRCCloud isn't terrific for channel operator functions, I sometimes load mIRC briefly to do something in that regard.
...and what apps did yo try?
As if I'd remember after 16 years?
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in
LSD Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome
(that costs $2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
It isn't specific. It's most of the crap apps that exist for your
lame OS. Microsoft Office and presumably Adobe's stuff
notwithstanding, and video editing.
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
I could try to research the names, of specific apps, to give you an
answer, but I'd rather just not care about Apple and let them be lame
away from me.
Objectively, you'd rather make vague claims you never support with any
specificity.
Why would I think Mac software has changed enough to impress me (with a
few exceptions, perhaps)?
On 8/19/2026 1:18 PM, ....winston wrote:
On 08/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind >>> of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC >>> was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
Yes, its all FUD without proof of source.
It's unlikely organizations sell unused or no longer in service os to third party markets. Organizations contract for a preset number of licenses. Unused licenses are a wasted asset. Perpetual licenses stay vaild forever, subscription licenses are valid for the duration of the subscription, unused subscriptions(also a wasted expense) until the next renewal where the quantity(# subscriptions) can be reduced.
Unused are not resold. They are retained to meet current or future software audits(internal and external for compliance).
Volume license resellers do have options for unused licenses and market for resale at discount pricing...but only after approval from MSFT.
- which is why certain editions of Windows and Office periodically appear for consumer purchase. These are direct to consumer, not to OEM retailers of hardware for sale to consumers.
In summary, the concept of organizations selling to Mini-pc manufacturers is as you've stated...FUD.
Wow, even a so-called expert is wrong. I'm amazed that you are unaware of this phenomenon, but you obviously are. You're wrong.
On Fri, 8/21/2026 5:09 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/19/2026 1:18 PM, ....winston wrote:
On 08/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind >>>> of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC >>>> was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
Yes, its all FUD without proof of source.
It's unlikely organizations sell unused or no longer in service os to third party markets. Organizations contract for a preset number of licenses. Unused licenses are a wasted asset. Perpetual licenses stay vaild forever, subscription licenses are valid for the duration of the subscription, unused subscriptions(also a wasted expense) until the next renewal where the quantity(# subscriptions) can be reduced.
Unused are not resold. They are retained to meet current or future software audits(internal and external for compliance).
Volume license resellers do have options for unused licenses and market for resale at discount pricing...but only after approval from MSFT.
- which is why certain editions of Windows and Office periodically appear for consumer purchase. These are direct to consumer, not to OEM retailers of hardware for sale to consumers.
In summary, the concept of organizations selling to Mini-pc manufacturers is as you've stated...FUD.
Wow, even a so-called expert is wrong. I'm amazed that you are unaware of this phenomenon, but you obviously are. You're wrong.
He's in the business and he has connections. Why wouldn't he know ?
I don't have connections and I don't know what's going on. I know
there is:
MasGrave
( example of activity level https://github.com/topics/massgravel )
Companies selling licenses for $20 on Internet (they will replace, if one is bad)
( Not the same thing as MasGrave )
Since there is no sign of the $20 licenses invalidating themselves (like
some sort of KMS failure from the past), the implication is that the license itself
is perfectly valid (where ever it came from).
At the current time, there are efforts to cut into this practice,
but the article making this statement provided no proof it was
even possible to do that.
What we do know, is if a *company* defrauds Microsoft to the tune of >$500K, Microsoft sends the lawyers after them. For example, even mom & pop computer stores (I have scummy stores in town like that), they can install Windows
and apply a KMS license and do that... 2000 times. If enough people have license failures and contact Microsoft to identify mom & pop, then the lawyers show up at the door. But it's not worth gassing up the
lawyer car, unless the proceeds of the crime are large enough. If you
or I did one illegal thing, it costs too much to chase us down. But smaller operations have been chased down.
If there was "legal leverage" Microsoft could use against
the $20 items, that leverage would have been used by now.
This is an example of a masgrave thread. Notice there are claims
Microsoft Support even uses it, to fix licensing issues. That's
because it has component parts, and it is "carrying out the
ceremony of activation", and the activation is also recorded
on the Microsoft server. That means, if you reinstalled, the
OS would activate again automatically, without any additional
effort. Nuking and paving the OS then, removes some of the possibilities
of a script having malware in it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WindowsLTSC/comments/1omt5s2/is_masgrave_really_safe/
I wouldn't do that, as it's not worth the bother. Just make sure
any scripts you might download, are legit ones and not altered.
No, I don't know where they are stored. References have been made
to it on USENET, in the past.
Paul
Joel W. Crump wrote on 8/21/2026 4:42 PM:
On 8/18/2026 8:42 PM, Alan wrote:
I owned a MacBook with Snow Leopard, at one time. I ended upGive an example of a macOS app that is "mediocre" compared to >>>>>>>>> what you can get on Window or Linux.
Just one.
IRC client.
Really? Which IRC client (not actually an individual application)? >>>>>>
buying CrossOver to use mIRC.
<https://computercity.com/software/macos/irc-client-for-mac>
Show how mIRC is better than all of those.
I wasn't comparing it to them at that time. I use IRCCloud, mostly,
now, but have mIRC available for specific functions. In that time
when I had macOS, the several OS X apps I tried for IRC were all lame.
Really? What are these "specific functions"...
IRCCloud isn't terrific for channel operator functions, I sometimes
load mIRC briefly to do something in that regard.
...and what apps did yo try?
As if I'd remember after 16 years?
I'm asking you for something SPECIFIC, doofus.
Win and Lin don't have the lackadaisical motif, the drowned in >>>>>>>> LSD Steve Jobs ugh I can't use this crapware anymore syndrome >>>>>>>> (that costs $2000).
None of that is "SPECIFIC", doofus.
It isn't specific. It's most of the crap apps that exist for your >>>>>> lame OS. Microsoft Office and presumably Adobe's stuff
notwithstanding, and video editing.
This is more word salad from you that means nothing.
I could try to research the names, of specific apps, to give you an
answer, but I'd rather just not care about Apple and let them be
lame away from me.
Objectively, you'd rather make vague claims you never support with
any specificity.
Why would I think Mac software has changed enough to impress me (with
a few exceptions, perhaps)?
Apple software doesn't change much. Except to add bling and visual eye candy. Sometimes at the expense of what little functionality it
previously had. But it still sells. That is called success.
That's the thing, the licenses the China semi-OEMs are using are that kind of license, not sold directly by MS and while MS tolerates the practice not truthfully following the license agreement as it was originally sold. That's why I would pay MS directly for a legit license, because to me the validity of intellectual property matters, to others this would simply be paying to get the same thing they already had, and that's fine for most people.
To verify that I'm right is trivially easy with PowerShell, buy one of these devices and check what its license is, then buy the license as I did, replace it with "change product key" in Windows settings, and magically the same PowerShell command will show it as a "retail" license.
That's the thing, the licenses the China semi-OEMs are using are that kind of license, not sold directly by MS and while MS tolerates the practice not truthfully following the license agreement as it was originally sold. That's why I would pay MS directly for a legit license, because to me the validity of intellectual property matters, to others this would simply be paying to get the same thing they already had, and that's fine for most people.
To verify that I'm right is trivially easy with PowerShell, buy one of these devices and check what its license is, then buy the license as I did, replace it with "change product key" in Windows settings, and magically the same PowerShell command will show it as a "retail" license.
Your Mini-PC should have a license key recorded in the ACPI MSDM table.
You can use a Linux like ACPIdump or similar, to dump that table entry.
So not only is the OS activated by the licensing process - instead of
a COA (Certificate Of Authenticity), the machine has the license key
stored in the BIOS. And that means every machine has a custom BIOS image (with the difference being that key).
If you reinstall your OS, you might inadvertently discover that the activation that happens during that install, is actually using
the ACPI MSDM one. So now that you're juggling two keys, if
you ever reinstall, you have to think about which key is
now running the OS.
If there wasn't an ACPI MSDM table in the BIOS, that's the point
I would begin to wonder where the license came from.
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, those
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, those
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
Paul
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with any other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD) (other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if the existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed) - system in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macrium
CD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, would
that still work with what's in the BIOS?
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included?
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included?
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
On 8/22/2026 9:24 AM, Chris wrote:
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/ B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
[]
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with any other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD) (other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if the existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed) - system in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
Paul
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macrium
CD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, would
that still work with what's in the BIOS?
On Sat, 8/22/2026 7:39 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with any
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD)
(other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup
differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if the
existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed) -
system in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macrium
CD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, would
that still work with what's in the BIOS?
When the activation happens for that OS, it is recorded on the Microsoft server using a hardware ID.
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things,
such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there. The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason
it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" state
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Whether
it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
There is a huge matrix of cha-cha about the license situation,
and nobody wants to read all that this morning :-)
Roughly the "worst situation" happens when you buy a PC
off Ebay which claims to have W10 or W11 on it. It may
arrive seemingly licensed, then a few days later you see
the watermark in the corner. The license in that case,
could include a reference to an MSA that is not the same
as the MSA you're using this morning, and Tech Support
is going to have trouble circling any squares. That's the
situation where the "Joel algorithm" might be required.
A new license, because absolutely nobody can figure out
what the hell the seller did to the PC. Officially Refurbished
PCs usually arrive in firm footing and don't do that, whereas
an Ebay machine "could have lived in a bad neighbourhood" :-)
The Ebay seller could be "double plus incompetent", considering
the ways the situation could be resolved.
I didn't in any way mean to say that the licenses the mini PCs come
with wouldn't *work* - but that if one wants to follow MS's licensing agreements, they are being reused in an invalid way. But it is tolerated.
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
[]
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with any other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD) (other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if the existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed) - system in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
Paul
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macrium
CD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, would
that still work with what's in the BIOS?
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a
commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way
that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really
care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing
licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good
enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very
simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in
settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you
only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind >>> of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC >>> was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer
all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
On Sat, 8/22/2026 7:39 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:ny
On 2026/8/22 2:33:55, Paul wrote:
[]
If I buy a retail motherboard and build my own PC, thoseI've always assumed that Macrium-imaging my C: partition, along with a
BIOS do not have the ACPI MSDM entry. But anyone shipping
a computer with a license, in the Win 11 era (since Win8),
that key is in the BIOS. In effect, that's the COA.
Paul
)other partitions (including hidden, unlettered, etc.) on the disc (SSD
he(other than D: which I made and is most of the disc, which I backup
differently), would allow me to restore a working - and licenced, if t
-existing is (I bought the laptop from a small shop with W10 installed)
umsystem in the event of disaster, such as disc failure or very bad
malware. Is that true - if I were to install a new SSD, boot the Macri
dCD, and restore all the partitions to it from the Macrium backup, woul
tthat still work with what's in the BIOS?
When the activation happens for that OS, it is recorded on the Microsof
server using a hardware ID.
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of thethere.
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things,
such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason
it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" stateer
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Wheth
it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
There is a huge matrix of cha-cha about the license situation,
and nobody wants to read all that this morning :-)
Roughly the "worst situation" happens when you buy a PC
off Ebay which claims to have W10 or W11 on it. It may
arrive seemingly licensed, then a few days later you see
the watermark in the corner. The license in that case,
could include a reference to an MSA that is not the same--
as the MSA you're using this morning, and Tech Support
is going to have trouble circling any squares. That's the
situation where the "Joel algorithm" might be required.
A new license, because absolutely nobody can figure out
what the hell the seller did to the PC. Officially Refurbished
PCs usually arrive in firm footing and don't do that, whereas
an Ebay machine "could have lived in a bad neighbourhood" :-)
The Ebay seller could be "double plus incompetent", considering
the ways the situation could be resolved.
Paul
On 2026/8/22 17:58:29, Paul wrote:
When the activation happens for that OS, it is recorded on the Microsoft
server using a hardware ID.
I didn't do the activation; I presume the shop man did it, as (a) it was
a working/running Windows when I got it, and (b) the actual hardware I'm pretty sure predates W10.
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things,
such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there.
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason
it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
If "hot backup" means one done from within Windows, I don't do that: I
make my Macrium backups by cold-booting from the Macrium (6) CD.
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" state
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Whether
it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
Roughly the "worst situation" happens when you buy a PC
off Ebay which claims to have W10 or W11 on it. It may
arrive seemingly licensed, then a few days later you see
the watermark in the corner. The license in that case,
(No such problems; it's been fine - apart from that weird thing with the
left ctrl key - since I've had it. OK, it's frozen a couple of times in
the last month or so, but that's due to the heat [like most UK homes, I
do not have A/C; I now have it propped up with a big old desk fan
blowing under it].)
A PC at that price would normally have Windows Home, if it
were from a Microsoft-affiliated OEM, because the price of Pro even preinstalled is substantially higher.
On 8/22/2026 9:24 AM, Chris wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind >>>> of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC >>>> was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included?
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else.
On 08/22/2026 4:54 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:So why do you think Paul mentioned "hot", if it doesn't make any
On 2026/8/22 17:58:29, Paul wrote:
When the activation happens for that OS, it is recorded on the Microsoft >>> server using a hardware ID.
I didn't do the activation; I presume the shop man did it, as (a) it was
a working/running Windows when I got it, and (b) the actual hardware I'm
pretty sure predates W10.
Does not matter.
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things,
such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there.
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason
it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
If "hot backup" means one done from within Windows, I don't do that: I
make my Macrium backups by cold-booting from the Macrium (6) CD.
Does not matter - Macrium in Windows or Macrium created media.
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" state
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Whether >>> it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
Re-validation is uncommon, relatively non-existent for consumer(OEM,
Retail Consumer, and either with digital licenses).
Re-verification(not the same as validation/re-validation) which isThat would cover replacement of the SSD, if I ever have to, I take it.
periodic background process occurs automatically for enterprise volume and/or subscription editions, or when major hardware changes exist(for
all types - enterprise, subscription, consumer(retail, OEM).
- i.e. the latter(for consumer hardware changes is why digital
licensing with a linked MSA is useful).
Roughly the "worst situation" happens when you buy a PC
off Ebay which claims to have W10 or W11 on it. It may
arrive seemingly licensed, then a few days later you see
the watermark in the corner. The license in that case,
(No such problems; it's been fine - apart from that weird thing with the
left ctrl key - since I've had it. OK, it's frozen a couple of times in
the last month or so, but that's due to the heat [like most UK homes, I
do not have A/C; I now have it propped up with a big old desk fan
blowing under it].)
Left CTRL key => Not license related.
On 8/23/2026 4:48 AM, Chris wrote:
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else.
It is Win11, they can't advertise it quite like HP or Dell would, but that's certainly what these devices come with.
On Sun, 8/23/2026 4:56 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 4:48 AM, Chris wrote:
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low >>>>> prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else.
It is Win11, they can't advertise it quite like HP or Dell would, but that's certainly what these devices come with.
They cannot seem to remotely advertise like a Dell or a HP.
Here is an HP take on a mini-PC :-)
https://ca.pcmag.com/desktop-pcs/4122/hp-z2-mini-g1a
Operating System Windows 11 Pro
3.4" by 7.9" by 6.6"
"Smells like a steak and seats thirty five"
On 2026/8/23 5:13:25, ....winston wrote:
On 08/22/2026 4:54 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:So why do you think Paul mentioned "hot", if it doesn't make any
On 2026/8/22 17:58:29, Paul wrote:
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things, >>>> such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there.
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason >>>> it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated,
no one cares.
If "hot backup" means one done from within Windows, I don't do that: I
make my Macrium backups by cold-booting from the Macrium (6) CD.
Does not matter - Macrium in Windows or Macrium created media.
difference? Or do you not think that's what he was referring to (in
which case what _do_ you think he meant)?
Let us say for a moment, some part that forms the "licensed" state
on the restored PC was missing, then the OS can "check in" using
its hardware ID, and a record of the activation is on the server. Whether >>>> it ever does that, or does that on a regular basis, I don't know.
Probably not, or there would be the occasional report of a failure
related to it.
Re-validation is uncommon, relatively non-existent for consumer(OEM,
Retail Consumer, and either with digital licenses).
How do I tell which I have? Bottom right of my screen (desktop) says
Windows 10 Home
Build 19041.vb_release.191206-1406
Winver shows
Version 22H2 (OS Build 19045.7683) ... Windows 10 Home ...
On 08/23/2026 4:59 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
On 2026/8/23 5:13:25, ....winston wrote:
On 08/22/2026 4:54 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:So why do you think Paul mentioned "hot", if it doesn't make any
On 2026/8/22 17:58:29, Paul wrote:
If you restore from backup, it's my guess the internal state of the
OS is consistent with how it was before. There will be missing things, >>>>> such as Windows.edb (Search Indexer file), but everything else will be there.
The index will then rebuild itself over the next day or so. The reason >>>>> it might be missing, is it won't quiesce during a hot backup (VSS
doesn't work properly for it). Since it is automatically regenerated, >>>>> no one cares.
If "hot backup" means one done from within Windows, I don't do that: I >>>> make my Macrium backups by cold-booting from the Macrium (6) CD.
Does not matter - Macrium in Windows or Macrium created media.
difference? Or do you not think that's what he was referring to (in
which case what _do_ you think he meant)?
That's what he meant(Hot backup = done in Windows).
The image(all partitions - System, MSR, Windows, Recovery) restored(or cloned) to the new SSD is structurally the same. Windows, upon use, will recover or recreate what it needs.
[]How do I tell which I have? Bottom right of my screen (desktop) says
Looking in the wrong place.
Admin Command Prompt, type the following and press Enter.
slmgr /dli
On 8/23/2026 6:16 AM, Paul wrote:
On Sun, 8/23/2026 4:56 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 4:48 AM, Chris wrote:
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low >>>>>> prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else.
It is Win11, they can't advertise it quite like HP or Dell would, but that's certainly what these devices come with.
They cannot seem to remotely advertise like a Dell or a HP.
Here is an HP take on a mini-PC :-)
https://ca.pcmag.com/desktop-pcs/4122/hp-z2-mini-g1a
Operating System Windows 11 Pro
3.4" by 7.9" by 6.6"
"Smells like a steak and seats thirty five"
Christ. I mean, it might be OK for some particular application, but it's a lot to
spend for what it really is. The appeal of the mini PC to me is that they've made a
viable PC a commodity, this HP model is not consistent with that, though it is "cool", at least.
On Sun, 8/23/2026 7:29 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 6:16 AM, Paul wrote:
On Sun, 8/23/2026 4:56 AM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 4:48 AM, Chris wrote:
It is Win11, they can't advertise it quite like HP or Dell would, but that's certainly what these devices come with.which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low >>>>>>> prices.
https://www.amazon.com/Getorli-Desktop-Computer-Business-Education/dp/B0GTM4FCS4?th=1
That one is the same brand and basic specs as the one I have.
It mentions "OS/ 11 Pro". Which may mean Windows 11 or something else. >>>>
They cannot seem to remotely advertise like a Dell or a HP.
Here is an HP take on a mini-PC :-)
https://ca.pcmag.com/desktop-pcs/4122/hp-z2-mini-g1a
Operating System Windows 11 Pro
3.4" by 7.9" by 6.6"
"Smells like a steak and seats thirty five"
Christ. I mean, it might be OK for some particular application, but it's a lot to
spend for what it really is. The appeal of the mini PC to me is that they've made a
viable PC a commodity, this HP model is not consistent with that, though it is "cool", at least.
The mini-PC will span from $300 to over $4000 or so.
The RAM shortage of next year, will have something to say about
what volume of those will ship.
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work, though.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>>>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally >>> more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:[...]
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included?
which devices? Provide links of mini-PCs being sold with Pro for low
prices.
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses,
but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any
idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work, though.
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole >>>>> Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think >>>> these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD >>> and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard. They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter
of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for
it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
At Sat, 22 Aug 2026 16:29:40 -0400, "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11 >>>>> Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole
Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think
these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally >>> more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
Bullshit.
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit
license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole >>>>>> Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think >>>>> these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD >>>> and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally >>>> more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single
gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I last
researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the Microsoft standard.
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the thing is that you really can
use what they provide, the same as buying a gray-market license from Bleeping
Computer or some such, it's not valid according to the original license agreement
but who cares, it's a matter of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it.
I simply had some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the money, blah blah,
they do need it because they're a business like any other, cash flow goes both
ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
On 2026/8/23 16:0:50, ....winston wrote:OEM-DM = Original Equipment Manufacturer - Digital Marker
[]
I got a popup called Windows Script Host, which saidHow do I tell which I have?Admin Command Prompt, type the following and press Enter.
slmgr /dli
Name: Windows(R), Core edition
Description: Windows{R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted - 5 characters]
License Status: Licensed
So thanks.>>
On Sun, 8/23/2026 3:39 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/19/2026 11:40 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
You're not getting the point. Microsoft doesn't license 11 Pro on a >>>>>>>> commodity mini PC, the license is *used by* the manufacturer in a way >>>>>>>> that somehow qualifies as being OK to use, because MS doesn't really >>>>>>>> care, they know where the money in Windows is, this is merely reusing >>>>>>>> licenses in a semi-sketchy but largely tolerated way. It's not good >>>>>>>> enough for me, as a cognizant consumer, but Microsoft provides a very >>>>>>>> simple solution as I explained (the "change product key" function in >>>>>>>> settings).
I'm "not getting the point", because you don't *have* a point, you >>>>>>> only have FUD.
You have no way of knowing whether or not Microsoft sells Windows 11
Pro to Mini-PC manufacturers.
You *claim* that Mini-PC manufacturers get their licences in some kind
of 'gray' way from other parties which no longer need those licenses, >>>>>>> but you provide no proof of said claim. None, zilch, nada.
If you are convinced that the Pro license which came with your Mini-PC
was dodgy and therefor you were willing to spend $200 on a legit >>>>>>> license, then that's of course your prerogative. Accusing the whole >>>>>>> Mini-PC industry for using dodgy licences, is not.
Once more: EOD.
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you think >>>>>> these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do you have any >>>>>> idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD >>>>> and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses >>>>> from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>>>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?), >>>>> nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work, >>>> though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single >>> gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I last
researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the Microsoft standard.
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the thing is that you really can
use what they provide, the same as buying a gray-market license from Bleeping
Computer or some such, it's not valid according to the original license agreement
but who cares, it's a matter of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it.
I simply had some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for it,
Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the money, blah blah,
they do need it because they're a business like any other, cash flow goes both
ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Using a Linux OS...
"Inspect the /sys/firmware/acpi/tables/MSDM file"
That should have the key.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-client/licensing-and-activation/validate-oem-activation-key
"OA3TOOL /Validate
It runs a validation pass to make sure that:
the MSDM table exists.
the MSDM table header includes all the required fields.
the MSDM table entries exist and comply with the correct formats.
OA3TOOL /CheckEdition
Does a cross-check between the injected DPK and the target Windows edition if they match.
"
According to that then, the thing is a "table", even if on printing it out you can only see the license key.
I don't have any machines with an MSDM here, so I can't do any of this.
But the approaches here, may show you more than just a key.
https://dev.to/moonlitpath1/how-linux-figures-out-what-hardware-you-have-291o
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you
think these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do
you have any idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro
sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with your FUD >>> and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the responses
from people who have way, way more expertise and experience in the
matter. You didn't even seem to know where an OEM license is stored
these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro doesn't offer >>> all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice beyond the
China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro
online for a small sum. The only catch is that it violates MS's
original agreement with whomever purchased the license. It will work,
though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a single gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices, i.e.
not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still haven't
provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard.
They're entities in China's mainland.
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter
of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for
it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you
think these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do
you have any idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro
sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with
your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the
responses from people who have way, way more expertise and
experience in the matter. You didn't even seem to know where an
OEM license is stored these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be
marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro
doesn't offer all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any
topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice
beyond the China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market
license for 11 Pro online for a small sum. The only catch is
that it violates MS's original agreement with whomever purchased
the license. It will work, though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a
single
gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices,
i.e. not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still
haven't provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs,
since I last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not
by the Microsoft standard.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still
without
providing any proof, does not make that so.
They're entities in China's mainland.
Duh! Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they're not OEMs.
[Usual FUD, innuendo, etc. without any proof:]
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as
buying a gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such,
it's not valid according to the original license agreement but who
cares, it's a matter of activating the OS on a device, MS will let
you do it. I simply had some extra money to spend on a valid
license and wanted to actually support the development of the
platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for it, Microsoft is a
billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the money, blah blah,
they do need it because they're a business like any other, cash
flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license"
nonsense,
just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
'slmgr /dli' outputs:
Name: Windows(R), Core edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
Name: Windows(R), Professional edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
So that is clear proof that the Pro license is a legit *OEM*
license,
as everybody, except you, said from the get go.
See John's (J. P. Gilliver) post for a similar 'slmgr /dli' example
and Winston's post for the explanation of what the 'DM' part means.
So, if you respond again, provide *P R O O F* of your claims, or
kindly STFU.
At 24 Aug 2026 15:14:09 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/23/2026 3:27 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/22/2026 3:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
It's only "EOD" when I'm done refuting your lunacy. Why do you
think these devices are priced so low with 11 Pro included? Do
you have any idea what they'd cost if they were getting 11 Pro
sourced directly from MS?
*My* lunacy!? You're the one continuously rambling on with
your FUD
and innuendo, without any kind of proof, while ignoring the
responses from people who have way, way more expertise and
experience in the matter. You didn't even seem to know where an
OEM license is stored these days!
As to price: An *OEM* Pro license - i.e. in *bulk* would be
marginally
more expensive than a Home one. Face it, for Joe User, Pro
doesn't offer all that much more than Home.
But feel free to rant on. It seems on this topic (or any
topic?),
nobody can stop you.
As long as someone passes the popcorn, I'm fine.
It's not "FUD", to begin with, this is a standard practice
beyond the China semi-OEMs, you can buy a single gray-market
license for 11 Pro online for a small sum. The only catch is
that it violates MS's original agreement with whomever purchased
the license. It will work, though.
'Nice' dodge/divert. You were not talking about "you can buy a
single
gray-market license for 11 Pro", but about (Chinese) Mini-PC
manufacturers supplying gray-market licenses with their devices,
i.e. not a single license, but many of them, in bulk. You still
haven't provided any proof of *that*.
In the meantime, Winston has explained that the cost difference
between an OEM bulk license for Pro versus Home is about $15 per
license, big deal.
QED.
HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs,
since I last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not
by the Microsoft standard.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still
without
providing any proof, does not make that so.
They're entities in China's mainland.
Duh! Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they're not OEMs.
[Usual FUD, innuendo, etc. without any proof:]
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as
buying a gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such,
it's not valid according to the original license agreement but who
cares, it's a matter of activating the OS on a device, MS will let
you do it. I simply had some extra money to spend on a valid
license and wanted to actually support the development of the
platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for it, Microsoft is a
billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the money, blah blah,
they do need it because they're a business like any other, cash
flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license"
nonsense,
just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
'slmgr /dli' outputs:
Name: Windows(R), Core edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
Name: Windows(R), Professional edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
So that is clear proof that the Pro license is a legit *OEM*
license,
as everybody, except you, said from the get go.
See John's (J. P. Gilliver) post for a similar 'slmgr /dli' example
and Winston's post for the explanation of what the 'DM' part means.
So, if you respond again, provide *P R O O F* of your claims, or
kindly STFU.
He won't. He's the same guy that said playing a certain video
on his computer ruined his video card, or his TV, or something
like that.
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I
last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still without providing any proof, does not make that so.
They're entities in China's mainland.
Duh! Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they're not OEMs.
[Usual FUD, innuendo, etc. without any proof:]
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a
gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid
according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter
of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for
it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license" nonsense, just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
He's the same guy that said playing a certain video
on his computer ruined his video card, or his TV, or something
like that.
On 8/24/2026 2:19 PM, vallor wrote:
He's the same guy that said playing a certain video
on his computer ruined his video card, or his TV, or something
like that.
I was using NVIDIA under Linux with proprietary drivers, and playing the pirated video on my TV as a second monitor made it permanently have a blurring effect on the TV as a second screen. Even completely replacing the distro with another one didn't fix it. NVIDIA is not to be fucked with.
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wallwarts
On Tue, 18 Aug 2026 12:15:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wallwarts
Can you power them all from a USB hub or something?
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Mon, 8/24/2026 11:28 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2026 12:15:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wallwarts
Can you power them all from a USB hub or something?
If you go for ATX sized supplies, you can get more current.
And with modular-cable ATX supplies, you don't need an excess of
cables all over the place. Just ground PS_ON# to make the
fan spin.
Paul
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Mon, 8/24/2026 11:28 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2026 12:15:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wallwarts
Can you power them all from a USB hub or something?
If you go for ATX sized supplies, you can get more current.
And with modular-cable ATX supplies, you don't need an excess of
cables all over the place. Just ground PS_ON# to make the
fan spin.
Paul
Yes, nice idea.
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Mon, 8/24/2026 11:28 PM, Lawrence DГ??Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2026 12:15:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wallwarts
Can you power them all from a USB hub or something?
If you go for ATX sized supplies, you can get more current.
And with modular-cable ATX supplies, you don't need an excess of
cables all over the place. Just ground PS_ON# to make the
fan spin.
Paul
Yes, nice idea.
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Mon, 8/24/2026 11:28 PM, Lawrence DГ??Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2026 12:15:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wallwarts
Can you power them all from a USB hub or something?
If you go for ATX sized supplies, you can get more current.
And with modular-cable ATX supplies, you don't need an excess of
cables all over the place. Just ground PS_ON# to make the
fan spin.
Paul
Yes, nice idea.
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG
PS
There may be a problem with groud-loops perhaps if you connect all togehter. I have 8 port USB hubs on 2 Pi4 seach with their own walwart,
2 4TB USB harddiscs on those USB hubs. lots of other stuff, POE ethernet too. Keeping it all floating has some advantages, also in case of failure,
if the ATX you propose fails then all goes down.
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Tue, 8/25/2026 3:15 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Mon, 8/24/2026 11:28 PM, Lawrence DГ??Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2026 12:15:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wallwarts
Can you power them all from a USB hub or something?
If you go for ATX sized supplies, you can get more current.
And with modular-cable ATX supplies, you don't need an excess of
cables all over the place. Just ground PS_ON# to make the
fan spin.
Paul
Yes, nice idea.
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG
What I've done for a few wallwart supplies, is use an "extension plug" like this.
https://images.homedepot.ca/productimages/p_1000105557.jpg?product-images=l
You start with the extension cord box, then plug in the orange things,
then "juggle" the wall adapters, sorting them on whatever side has
room for them. Some of the smaller adapters, are oriented 90 degrees
to the higher capacity ones. It just gives you a bit more 3D space,
and a slight improvement on numbers.
As for UPS, I tried to buy one locally this summer, and the store had *no* >delivery mechanism. One of them weighed around fifty pounds (I went down
the aisle and lifted it, and I can just imagine me dragging this
out of the store now). The store has no parking. The parking is
down the street.
Then when I came home and started researching
the lead-acid batteries, seemingly all the UPS need frequent battery >replacement. I was already doing that with my old UPS, and that
just put me off the topic completely. The replacement procedure for
one of the UPS I was looking at, was silly, and more complicated than
it needed to be. The industry just doesn't learn a damn thing. A bunch of idiots.
At least my existing UPS, it had two removal procedures. One, just
take the cover off and there it is. But, if the battery has swelled,
you can use a long screwdriver and remove the battery cage completely,
then fight with the battery to get it to release. At least those
options, you could always get the duff battery out.
I tried to locate a UPS with Lithium cells, and I found one!
But at $5000, that device remains "purely theoretical",
like the Warp Drive.
That's OK, so what if the power goes off...
Back into the swamp we slide...
Paul
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Tue, 8/25/2026 3:53 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Mon, 8/24/2026 11:28 PM, Lawrence DГ??Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2026 12:15:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wall-warts
Can you power them all from a USB hub or something?
If you go for ATX sized supplies, you can get more current.
And with modular-cable ATX supplies, you don't need an excess of
cables all over the place. Just ground PS_ON# to make the
fan spin.
Paul
Yes, nice idea.
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG
PS
There may be a problem with ground-loops perhaps if you connect all together.
I have 8 port USB hubs on 2 Pi4 each with their own wall-wart,
2 4TB USB harddiscs on those USB hubs. lots of other stuff, POE ethernet too.
Keeping it all floating has some advantages, also in case of failure,
if the ATX you propose fails then all goes down.
The ATX would be in the same fault-group as the UPS.
You'd look at the FITS for the ATX (3000 or so) and
some number for the UPS, to see what that would mean.
You can get redundant (load sharing) ATX for servers,
if you want to play with that number.
Computers have a hard ground. Peripherals are supposed to
float with respect to the computer. The Laplink class of
USB cable, is a violation of design intent (it could connect
the different grounds on two PCs). I don't know if anyone has
taken one of those apart for analysis of grounding strategy.
The only time I got "hum" in computer audio, was when
a LineIn cable came too close to the (unshielded) mains
power supply. Simply re-routing the cable inside the
amplifier box, fixed that.
The only other example of a hum problem, is my VOIP ATA box,
where the design floats on purpose, and I have no idea what
they were thinking in terms of hum problems. I've grounded
some chassis metal on it, which fixed the problem for a while,
but since modifying my network tree, the noise is back and
the ground cable is still connected.
Paul
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I
last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still without providing any proof, does not make that so.
Location does not matter.They're entities in China's mainland.
Duh! Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they're not OEMs.
[Usual FUD, innuendo, etc. without any proof:]
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a
gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid
according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter
of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for
it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license" nonsense, just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
'slmgr /dli' outputs:
Name: Windows(R), Core edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: License
Name: Windows(R), Professional edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
So that is clear proof that the Pro license is a legit *OEM* license,
as everybody, except you, said from the get go.
See John's (J. P. Gilliver) post for a similar 'slmgr /dli' example
and Winston's post for the explanation of what the 'DM' part means.
So, if you respond again, provide *P R O O F* of your claims, or
kindly STFU.
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
https://images.homedepot.ca/productimages/p_1000105557.jpg?product-images=l
I get:
Access Denied
You don't have permission to access "http://images.homedepot.ca/productimages/p_1000105557.jpg?" on this
server.
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid>wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 12:24:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
https://images.homedepot.ca/productimages/p_1000105557.jpg?product-images=l
I get:
Access Denied
You don't have permission to access
"http://images.homedepot.ca/productimages/p_1000105557.jpg?" on this
server.
It works somewhat like this, except perhaps less lethally ><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlNr8JpwCo>.
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Mon, 8/24/2026 11:28 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2026 12:15:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wallwarts
Can you power them all from a USB hub or something?
If you go for ATX sized supplies, you can get more current.
And with modular-cable ATX supplies, you don't need an excess of
cables all over the place. Just ground PS_ON# to make the
fan spin.
Paul
Yes, nice idea.
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG
As for UPS, I tried to buy one locally this summer, and the store had *no* delivery mechanism. One of them weighed around fifty pounds (I went down
the aisle and lifted it, and I can just imagine me dragging this
out of the store now). The store has no parking. The parking is
down the street.
Then when I came home and started researching
the lead-acid batteries, seemingly all the UPS need frequent battery replacement. I was already doing that with my old UPS, and that
just put me off the topic completely. The replacement procedure for
one of the UPS I was looking at, was silly, and more complicated than
it needed to be. The industry just doesn't learn a damn thing. A bunch of idiots.
At least my existing UPS, it had two removal procedures. One, just
take the cover off and there it is. But, if the battery has swelled,
you can use a long screwdriver and remove the battery cage completely,
then fight with the battery to get it to release. At least those
options, you could always get the duff battery out.
I tried to locate a UPS with Lithium cells, and I found one!
But at $5000, that device remains "purely theoretical",
like the Warp Drive.
That's OK, so what if the power goes off...
On Mon, 8/24/2026 8:28 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 8/24/2026 2:19 PM, vallor wrote:
He's the same guy that said playing a certain video
on his computer ruined his video card, or his TV, or something
like that.
I was using NVIDIA under Linux with proprietary drivers, and playing the pirated video on my TV as a second monitor made it permanently have a blurring effect on the TV as a second screen. Even completely replacing the distro with another one didn't fix it. NVIDIA is not to be fucked with.
Questions:
1) Main monitor connection type (HDMI?) and resolution setting ?
2) Secondary monitor (TV) connection type (HDMI?) and resolution setting ?
1920x1080 @ 60p or above likely requires HDCP for HDMI. And
if you are attempting 4K output, only HDCP 2.1 or so. Blurring
of a picture, is a kind of "defeat" for attempting capture
of Hollywood content during high-res playback. If a TV did not
have HDCP, the connection could be set up to be unencrypted,
and the "blurring thing" is an indicator that you need
HDCP to make the blur go away. Instead of the TV, connect
a monitor with HDMI + HDCP and play the title again.
If the TV had HDMI and HDCP and was operating at
rates requiring that level of protection (signal encryption),
then the treatment of your TV set should be consistent from
one OS to another.
On 08/24/2026 11:14 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs, since I >>> last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard.
Another invalid assumption by JC.
The prices for Home Pro sold by Microsoft to OEM has not been reduced.
It's always been quite low, 15-20% of the retail cost. Each os since
Win95 has only had a no change or marginal increase - some os like 98 through Vista were the same for years.
As noted its always been a slightly higher than the cost of the os to employees.
Yes, they *are* OEMs. Just because you say they're not, still without
providing any proof, does not make that so.
Agreed as you noted, they are OEMS.
They're entities in China's mainland.
Location does not matter.
They're entities in China's mainland. I mean, the
thing is that you really can use what they provide, the same as buying a >>> gray-market license from Bleeping Computer or some such, it's not valid
according to the original license agreement but who cares, it's a matter >>> of activating the OS on a device, MS will let you do it. I simply had
some extra money to spend on a valid license and wanted to actually
support the development of the platform, God forbid anyone ever paid for >>> it, Microsoft is a billion-dollar corporation, they don't need the
money, blah blah, they do need it because they're a business like any
other, cash flow goes both ways, I'm willing to pay my fair share.
Because you keep on harping about this "gray-market license" nonsense,
just for kicks, I checked the alleged 'gray-market' Pro license of my
wife's (Beelink EQR5) Mini-PC and compared it to the (obviously legit)
Home license of my HP laptop.
'slmgr /dli' outputs:
Name: Windows(R), Core edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: License
Name: Windows(R), Professional edition
Description: Windows(R) Operating System, OEM_DM channel
Partial Product Key: [redacted]
License Status: Licensed
So that is clear proof that the Pro license is a legit *OEM* license,
as everybody, except you, said from the get go.
See John's (J. P. Gilliver) post for a similar 'slmgr /dli' example
and Winston's post for the explanation of what the 'DM' part means.
So, if you respond again, provide *P R O O F* of your claims, or
kindly STFU.
Without validation for JC, it would be reasonable to assume that when(or
if) slmgr /dli or slmgr /dlv is performed on that(JC's) device, it will report one of the valid licensing types.
Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com>wrote:
On 2026-08-25 00:15, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>wrote:
On Mon, 8/24/2026 11:28 PM, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2026 12:15:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
How many Raspberry Pies do you get for the price of a Mac?
But.. you do need space for all those wallwarts
Can you power them all from a USB hub or something?
If you go for ATX sized supplies, you can get more current.
And with modular-cable ATX supplies, you don't need an excess of
cables all over the place. Just ground PS_ON# to make the
fan spin.
Paul
Yes, nice idea.
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG
I see that you must be single! No wife is likely to accept this as a >permanent installation.
Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California
Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com>wrote:
On 2026-08-25 00:15, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Yes, nice idea.
<snip>
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG
I see that you must be single! No wife is likely to accept this as a >>permanent installation.
I will be eighty in a few month (less than 12 ;-) ) so yes
all alone again with my memories
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvt43XtwmJU
Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California
I am in the Ntherlands now, been to Santa Barbara,
worked in LA to.
Been all over the world...
Anyways I always had a lot of electronics and audio around me.
Worked in broadcasting many years
Like music too :-)
Jan Panteltje wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com>wrote:
On 2026-08-25 00:15, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Yes, nice idea.
<snip>
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG
I see that you must be single! No wife is likely to accept this as a >>>permanent installation.
The cable management triggers my OCD!
I will be eighty in a few month (less than 12 ;-) ) so yes
all alone again with my memories
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvt43XtwmJU
Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California
I am in the Ntherlands now, been to Santa Barbara,
worked in LA to.
Been all over the world...
Anyways I always had a lot of electronics and audio around me.
Worked in broadcasting many years
Like music too :-)
Same here. With more cable management :-)
Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>wrote:
Chris Ahlstrom wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
Jan Panteltje wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com>wrote:
On 2026-08-25 00:15, Jan Panteltje wrote:I see that you must be single! No wife is likely to accept this as a >>>>permanent installation.
Yes, nice idea.
<snip>
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG >>>>
The cable management triggers my OCD!
I will be eighty in a few month (less than 12 ;-) ) so yes
all alone again with my memories
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvt43XtwmJU
Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California
I am in the Ntherlands now, been to Santa Barbara,
worked in LA to.
Been all over the world...
Anyways I always had a lot of electronics and audio around me.
Worked in broadcasting many years
Like music too :-)
Same here. With more cable management :-)
Here's my little corner of the house. All computers running Linux,
of course.
<https://ibb.co/G3cZPs8Y>
Still needs more cable management. :-D
Chris Ahlstrom wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
Jan Panteltje wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com>wrote:
On 2026-08-25 00:15, Jan Panteltje wrote:I see that you must be single! No wife is likely to accept this as a >>>>permanent installation.
Yes, nice idea.
<snip>
Now it look like this here:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/computer_table_IMX_IMG_0679.JPG
All on UPS too.
I camouflage it this way:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/Fazley_keyboard_behind_table_IXIMG_1524.JPG >>>>
The cable management triggers my OCD!
I will be eighty in a few month (less than 12 ;-) ) so yes
all alone again with my memories
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvt43XtwmJU
Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California
I am in the Ntherlands now, been to Santa Barbara,
worked in LA to.
Been all over the world...
Anyways I always had a lot of electronics and audio around me.
Worked in broadcasting many years
Like music too :-)
Same here. With more cable management :-)
Here's my little corner of the house. All computers running Linux,
of course.
<https://ibb.co/G3cZPs8Y>
Still needs more cable management. :-D
On 8/26/2026 1:41 AM, ....winston wrote:
On 08/24/2026 11:14 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
Microsoft may have reduced the prices for Pro sold through OEMs,
since I
last researched it, but these aren't technically OEMs, not by the
Microsoft standard.
Another invalid assumption by JC.
I didn't "assume" shit, dude, I said "may have", if you could read it
would help. WinPro used to be in the $100 range with OEM installs.
The prices for Home Pro sold by Microsoft to OEM has not been reduced.
It's always been quite low, 15-20% of the retail cost. Each os since
Win95 has only had a no change or marginal increase - some os like 98
through Vista were the same for years.
As noted its always been a slightly higher than the cost of the os to
employees.
Wrong.
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