On Tue, 6/30/2026 2:51 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-06-30, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 6/30/26 09:51, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

On 6/30/2026 5:14 PM, c186282 wrote:

Can you fabricate 0.000000...0000000001 nm chips?

Is zero the seal or wall? :)

ÿÿÿ Um, pretty quick you get to ATOMS ... and, for any
ÿÿÿ normal electronics, that's IT.

You cannot have 0.000000....00 nm chip.

That's a void, empty, nothing. :)

I tried to think through the implications of this
but I got a divide error.

"Electronics" are now about literal atom-thick structures.
Can't go any smaller.

Any better future stuff will have to exploit quantum
effects - get more bang for yer nanometer. Alas quantum
stuff isn't as deterministic as bulk matter devices
and suffer from the uncertainty principle.

Omigod, we might have to revive the KISS principle
in order to get anything more done. The proponents
of complexity as a weapon will be so disappointed...

This article is from the year 2001.

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2001/04/new-process-makes-near-atomic-scale-nanobumps

"A nanometer is equal to the width of 3 silicon atoms."

"But the technique is limited by the wavelength of light, and to date,
commercial optical lithography has not been able to produce features
smaller than 150 nanometers in width."

OMG, we'd doomed, he said. Progress, stopped in its very tracks.
The AM table radio can never exist now. We will be loading our
muskets with ball and powder, like always. I will have to fold
my own towels now, as a $20,000 robot to do the job can never exist.

Articles like that put the pace of progress in perspective.

Whether we do a thing, depends on what it costs. So while IBM
can publish an article, it's not a given that this scheme will
work out. If it adds even a few more process steps, it will be
rejected as impractical. It currently takes 12 weeks to make
a chip. If there is an earthquake, a single quarter of yearly output
is thrown away (any wafers inside process machines, being etched,
doped, or sputtered, thrown away). If the manufacturing time of chips
were to double, to 24 weeks (about half a year), then the exposure
to earthquake losses, increases.

Paul

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 6/30/2026 12:06 PM, c186282 wrote:

On 6/30/26 09:51, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

On 6/30/2026 5:14 PM, c186282 wrote:

Can you fabricate 0.000000...0000000001 nm chips?

Is zero the seal or wall? :)

ÿÿÿ Um, pretty quick you get to ATOMS ... and, for any
ÿÿÿ normal electronics, that's IT.

You cannot have 0.000000....00 nm chip.

That's a void, empty, nothing. :)

ÿ "Electronics" are now about literal atom-thick structures.
ÿ Can't go any smaller.

ÿ Any better future stuff will have to exploit quantum
ÿ effects - get more bang for yer nanometer. Alas quantum
ÿ stuff isn't as deterministic as bulk matter devices
ÿ and suffer from the uncertainty principle.

But only if there are properties that actually have some use.

A quick Google tells me there is a thing called "spintronics"
which can make insulators. The materials are "foreign" to
current semiconductors (so the materials may not "play nice"
with the rest of the substrate). And having an insulator,
does not give me a switching transistor.

Historically, we've made good use of quantum mechanical "tunneling",
which is finding a way underneath energy barriers. We have one
afternoon lab using one of these (these diodes are used in
time domain reflectometry for the nice sharp edges). I put mine right
across the terminals of an HP gray-plastic power supply, the one with
the course and fine controls. And you can use the power supply
as a curve tracer, and walk the diode right up to the
point where it switches. The power supply has amazing
characteristics at DC (not so much at HF). And that was
a fun afternoon of farting around.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_diode

And that's an illustration of an effect, it's not me predicting
they'll run right out and make something out of that.

This is another example of tunneling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Fowler%E2%80%93Nordheim_tunneling

"The Fowler-Nordheim tunneling effect is reversible, so electrons
can be added to or removed from the floating gate, processes
traditionally known as writing and erasing."

There's no uncertainty principle there, you need enough electrons
to maintain noise immunity.

If there is some property that can be used, and is not a flaky pastry,
then it will be introduced slowly. There is too much money involved
for this to be just "science", it's "business" too. And that affects
how you do it.

Paul



--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 6/30/26 14:51, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-06-30, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 6/30/26 09:51, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

On 6/30/2026 5:14 PM, c186282 wrote:

Can you fabricate 0.000000...0000000001 nm chips?

Is zero the seal or wall? :)

ÿÿÿ Um, pretty quick you get to ATOMS ... and, for any
ÿÿÿ normal electronics, that's IT.

You cannot have 0.000000....00 nm chip.

That's a void, empty, nothing. :)

I tried to think through the implications of this
but I got a divide error.

"Electronics" are now about literal atom-thick structures.
Can't go any smaller.

Any better future stuff will have to exploit quantum
effects - get more bang for yer nanometer. Alas quantum
stuff isn't as deterministic as bulk matter devices
and suffer from the uncertainty principle.

Omigod, we might have to revive the KISS principle
in order to get anything more done. The proponents
of complexity as a weapon will be so disappointed...

I do understand .......

However more and more of our 'future' seems to - or we
have been SOLD the idea that it seems to - rely on
ever more complex 'systems', electronic and otherwise.

This is why trillions are being poured into AI "data
centers". Can't get there from here without Claude
and Mr. Chat - and don't forget the gigantic
authoritarian/Orwellian micro-managing neo-commie
bureaucracy !

Does like Namibia offer 'golden visas' ? I'm getting
too old to move now, but it's still a very tempting
idea ... WAY 'off grid'.

Computers - frankly the Core2-Quad is probably good
enough for almost anything especially real. I do have
a bunch of computers - but it's cheap laptops and
mini-boxes based on cheap chips. More than good
enough for anything I need.

(shit, can't even get the mini-boxes for any sane
price now - 'AI' has sucked up the entire global
memory chip output. No, NOT the trade wars, it's
the damned MEMORY CHIPS. Every device from yer
Mr. Coffee on up need CPUs and *MEMORY CHIPS*)


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 6/30/26 17:58, Paul wrote:

On Tue, 6/30/2026 2:51 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-06-30, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 6/30/26 09:51, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

On 6/30/2026 5:14 PM, c186282 wrote:

Can you fabricate 0.000000...0000000001 nm chips?

Is zero the seal or wall? :)

ÿÿÿ Um, pretty quick you get to ATOMS ... and, for any
ÿÿÿ normal electronics, that's IT.

You cannot have 0.000000....00 nm chip.

That's a void, empty, nothing. :)

I tried to think through the implications of this
but I got a divide error.

"Electronics" are now about literal atom-thick structures.
Can't go any smaller.

Any better future stuff will have to exploit quantum
effects - get more bang for yer nanometer. Alas quantum
stuff isn't as deterministic as bulk matter devices
and suffer from the uncertainty principle.

Omigod, we might have to revive the KISS principle
in order to get anything more done. The proponents
of complexity as a weapon will be so disappointed...

This article is from the year 2001.

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2001/04/new-process-makes-near-atomic-scale-nanobumps

"A nanometer is equal to the width of 3 silicon atoms."

"But the technique is limited by the wavelength of light, and to date,
commercial optical lithography has not been able to produce features
smaller than 150 nanometers in width."

OMG, we'd doomed, he said. Progress, stopped in its very tracks.
The AM table radio can never exist now. We will be loading our
muskets with ball and powder, like always. I will have to fold
my own towels now, as a $20,000 robot to do the job can never exist.

Articles like that put the pace of progress in perspective.

Whether we do a thing, depends on what it costs. So while IBM
can publish an article, it's not a given that this scheme will
work out. If it adds even a few more process steps, it will be
rejected as impractical. It currently takes 12 weeks to make
a chip. If there is an earthquake, a single quarter of yearly output
is thrown away (any wafers inside process machines, being etched,
doped, or sputtered, thrown away). If the manufacturing time of chips
were to double, to 24 weeks (about half a year), then the exposure
to earthquake losses, increases.

Paul

Apparently IBM has indeed BUILT these chips.

Whether they can be "commercial" is yet to be seen,
but they can license their techniques and hardware.
Even ONE nanometer, stacked, chips would have a
large market. If you can't go faster then do MORE
with the old speed/space.

But, for electronic reasons, the increasing quantum
issues, this IS probably about as far as possible.

Some whole new paradigms will be needed and quantum
will always suffer from uncertainty, not reliable
enough for yer financial shit. Think the Taxman is
gonna give you 'quantum uncertainty' slack ?

Apparently Ilhan Omar was using a quantum computer
when doing her last tax statement :-)


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 6/30/26 19:28, rbowman wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2026 16:27:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

"Transistor nodes have shrunk dramatically, with leading developers like
IBM advancing into the sub-1 nanometre realm (e.g., 0.7-nanometer tech).
However, absolute limits are rapidly approaching due to several factors:

iirc terms like '5 nm process' no longer refer to any physical dimension
so I'm curious what the actual gate size is on 0.7 nm tech.

IBM sold their fab lines to GlobalFoundries and their '7 nm' tech was
closer to Intel's 10 nm.

Well, SEEMS like they've done the 1, or <1, nm
stacked chip.

They'll license that. Old company, but still kinda
out-front in their tech AND biz sense. NOT gonna
dump my stock.

Alas, as mentioned here, this IS about as far as
conventional electronics can go. Under 1nm the
quantum issues fuck up everything.

SO - we need entirely new tech paradigms now.
For 'electronics' we HAVE crashed into Dr. Moore.

Meanwhile, the stacked chips DO allow us to do
more, if not faster, in the same chip profiles.
There's money in that - for now.

Five years ... as said, we need Something Completely
Different. Maybe I'll be dead by then and won't care,
maybe not, but "transistors" aren't gonna go any
faster even as "AI" and a lot more DEMAND that.

Still wonder if "deca-state" logic, where the
intermediate values are stable and DON'T eat up
power, can be done. Some 'latching', 'layered',
design maybe. A few more layers per transistor.
I have this vague vision in my head ... quantified
analog, so to speak. One transistor, 2^10th
possible values.



--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 6/30/26 19:51, rbowman wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2026 18:51:03 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-06-30, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 6/30/26 09:51, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

On 6/30/2026 5:14 PM, c186282 wrote:

Can you fabricate 0.000000...0000000001 nm chips?

Is zero the seal or wall?

ÿÿÿ Um, pretty quick you get to ATOMS ... and, for any normal
ÿÿÿ electronics, that's IT.

You cannot have 0.000000....00 nm chip.

That's a void, empty, nothing.

I tried to think through the implications of this but I got a divide
error.

"Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness; emptiness does not
differ from form. Form itself is emptiness, emptiness itself form. Sensations, perceptions, formations, and consciousness are also like
this."

https://www.izauk.org/multimedia-archive/hannya-shingyo-the-heart-sutra/

Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha.

Umm ... so we're JUST MAKING IT UP.

Don't disagree for the most part. The Buddha,
even Plato to an extent, realized this 2500
years ago.

We YEARN for the anthropomorphic ... some hint
that the universe/reality cleaves to human-type
perceptions.

Nope.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 6/30/26 22:09, Paul wrote:

On Tue, 6/30/2026 12:06 PM, c186282 wrote:

On 6/30/26 09:51, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

On 6/30/2026 5:14 PM, c186282 wrote:

Can you fabricate 0.000000...0000000001 nm chips?

Is zero the seal or wall? :)

ÿÿÿ Um, pretty quick you get to ATOMS ... and, for any
ÿÿÿ normal electronics, that's IT.

You cannot have 0.000000....00 nm chip.

That's a void, empty, nothing. :)

ÿ "Electronics" are now about literal atom-thick structures.
ÿ Can't go any smaller.

ÿ Any better future stuff will have to exploit quantum
ÿ effects - get more bang for yer nanometer. Alas quantum
ÿ stuff isn't as deterministic as bulk matter devices
ÿ and suffer from the uncertainty principle.

But only if there are properties that actually have some use.

True.

There do seem to be SOME uses - but "general utility"
is not so clear.

A quick Google tells me there is a thing called "spintronics"
which can make insulators. The materials are "foreign" to
current semiconductors (so the materials may not "play nice"
with the rest of the substrate). And having an insulator,
does not give me a switching transistor.

Umm, no. "SpinTronics" may have uses - but, as you said,
it does not segway neatly with existing tech.

(fun - my spell-checker thing wants "Segway" - the
two-wheeled commercial thingie :-)

There are all sorts of exotic potential tech - weird
probability waves spreading over 2-D surfaces and such.
Can they be made into USEFUL technologies ? Maybe 10%
and only for specialized uses.

Existing transistor tech - it's deterministic, solid.
Alas with the IBM product we've probably reached the
bitter END of conventional electronics. Some seriously
different stuff will be needed for The Future if we
need more speed/density.

Historically, we've made good use of quantum mechanical "tunneling",
which is finding a way underneath energy barriers. We have one
afternoon lab using one of these (these diodes are used in
time domain reflectometry for the nice sharp edges). I put mine right
across the terminals of an HP gray-plastic power supply, the one with
the course and fine controls. And you can use the power supply
as a curve tracer, and walk the diode right up to the
point where it switches. The power supply has amazing
characteristics at DC (not so much at HF). And that was
a fun afternoon of farting around.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_diode

And that's an illustration of an effect, it's not me predicting
they'll run right out and make something out of that.

This is another example of tunneling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Fowler%E2%80%93Nordheim_tunneling

"The Fowler-Nordheim tunneling effect is reversible, so electrons
can be added to or removed from the floating gate, processes
traditionally known as writing and erasing."

There's no uncertainty principle there, you need enough electrons
to maintain noise immunity.

NO longer sure if you go below 1nm alas.

If there is some property that can be used, and is not a flaky pastry,
then it will be introduced slowly. There is too much money involved
for this to be just "science", it's "business" too. And that affects
how you do it.

Expect a LOT of flaky pastries in short order.

One or two will be useful/do-able.

The rest ....


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Wed, 7/1/2026 2:04 AM, c186282 wrote:

On 6/30/26 19:28, rbowman wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2026 16:27:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

"Transistor nodes have shrunk dramatically, with leading developers like >>> IBM advancing into the sub-1 nanometre realm (e.g., 0.7-nanometer tech). >>> However, absolute limits are rapidly approaching due to several factors:

iirc terms like '5 nm process' no longer refer to any physical dimension
so I'm curious what the actual gate size is on 0.7 nm tech.

IBM sold their fab lines to GlobalFoundries and their '7 nm' tech was
closer to Intel's 10 nm.

ÿ Well, SEEMS like they've done the 1, or <1, nm
ÿ stacked chip.

You will need to see the dimensions of the whole thing,
to see which "chance" dimension is 1nm.

https://newsroom.ibm.com/2026-06-25-ibm-debuts-worlds-first-sub-1-nanometer-chip-technology

https://filecache.mediaroom.com/mr5mr_ibmnewsroom/201436/IBM-Research_TEM_4.jpg

The diagram here, is too hard to read. The FINFET is on the left. The Gate All Around
device in the center. The stacked P channel and N channel on the right.

https://www.eetimes.com/ibm-shows-sub-1-nm-chips-targeting-production-in-5-years/

They talk here, of two wafers being bonded vertically. Which might
be how the scheme maintains a semblance of manufacturability. Imagine
an 18" (450mm" wafer, aligned at the atomic level.

https://www.servethehome.com/ibm-outlines-sub-1nm-nanostack-transistor-technology/

Paul


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 01/07/2026 08:16, c186282 wrote:

ÿ Umm ... so we're JUST MAKING IT UP.

Yes, but only the form. The substances is still there.

ÿ Don't disagree for the most part. The Buddha,
ÿ even Plato to an extent, realized this 2500
ÿ years ago.

ÿ We YEARN for the anthropomorphic ... some hint
ÿ that the universe/reality cleaves to human-type
ÿ perceptions.

People yearn even more for someone who can assure them they Know Where
Its At.
Even when its patently obvious they are making it all up.

Moses realized that giving them some relatively harmless shit would stop
a lot of argument.

--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."

- Leo Tolstoy



--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 01/07/2026 03:09, Paul wrote:

There's no uncertainty principle there, you need enough electrons
to maintain noise immunity.

Quantum uncertainty becomes macro certainty as the probability
approaches unity.

In terms of nanometre sized chip technology, that is a measurable
distance from unity


--
?The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.?

Herbert Spencer


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 01/07/2026 08:29, c186282 wrote:

ÿ Umm, no. "SpinTronics" may have uses - but, as you said,
ÿ it does not segway neatly with existing tech.

SEGUE
From the iItalian. Same root as 'sequence'

ÿ (fun - my spell-checker thing wants "Segway" - the
ÿ two-wheeled commercial thingie :-)

...
ÿ Existing transistor tech - it's deterministic, solid.

No. its probabilistic. Nu the probabilities are very c;lose to unity.

ÿ Alas with the IBM product we've probably reached the
ÿ bitter END of conventional electronics. Some seriously
ÿ different stuff will be needed for The Future if we
ÿ need more speed/density.

Waffle.



--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 01/07/2026 06:15, c186282 wrote:

Apparently IBM has indeed BUILT these chips.

"I can call spirits, from the vasty deep'
'Why so can I or any man, but will they come when you do so call them?'

I have sub nanometre chips in my hand right now. They don't do anything
or work, of course and are invisible to the naked eye and indeed the
most powerful scanning electron microscopes.

But they do wonders for stock prices.


--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 01/07/2026 18:43, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 1 Jul 2026 10:05:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Moses realized that giving them some relatively harmless shit would stop
a lot of argument.

His shit proved to be anything but harmless.

Well that of courses is your take. He couldnt see the rise of the
American Bigot back then in the bronze age.

--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.



--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 30 Jun 2026 22:09:52 -0400, Paul wrote:

Historically, we've made good use of quantum mechanical "tunneling",
which is finding a way underneath energy barriers.

Transistors wouldn?t work without that.

Heck, even vacuum tubes wouldn?t work without tunnelling.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-07-08 09:46, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2026 22:09:52 -0400, Paul wrote:

Historically, we've made good use of quantum mechanical "tunneling",
which is finding a way underneath energy barriers.

Transistors wouldn?t work without that.

Heck, even vacuum tubes wouldn?t work without tunnelling.

Huh? Not sure I ever heard of that. Maybe my memory is failing.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
ES??, EU??;

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 08/07/2026 11:05,Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

vacuum tubes wouldn?t work without tunnelling.

Standard thermionic vacuum tubes do not rely on quantum tunnelling. They
work through classical physics?specifically thermionic emission and electrostatic attraction.

Quantum tunnelling is an enemy of traditional transistors.

Lawrence is - as usual - wrong about everything.


--
?The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.?

Herbert Spencer


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Wed, 8 Jul 2026 12:05:56 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2026-07-08 09:46, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jun 2026 22:09:52 -0400, Paul wrote:

Historically, we've made good use of quantum mechanical
"tunneling", which is finding a way underneath energy barriers.

Transistors wouldn?t work without that.

Heck, even vacuum tubes wouldn?t work without tunnelling.

Huh? Not sure I ever heard of that. Maybe my memory is failing.

Both depend on energy barriers which, in classical terms, the
particles can either cross freely if they are below a critical point,
or get completely blocked from crossing if the barrier is even
slightly above that point.

But by regulating that energy barrier, you can modulate the amount of
particle current that crosses it, over a continuous range from off to
low to high, as opposed to completely off versus completely on. This
only works because of quantum theory.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 09/07/2026 02:20, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2026 23:15:44 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

But by regulating that energy barrier, you can modulate the amount of
particle current that crosses it, over a continuous range from off to
low to high, as opposed to completely off versus completely on. This
only works because of quantum theory.

It's amazing how many things worked quite well prior to someone developing
a theory.

Not really. The universe was there long before any theories were developed
Only Latter Day Leftism preaches that the world conforms to theory,
rather than vice versa...


--
There?s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.18
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)